>Simon
> rather than focusing just on Heroquesting in the classic sense,
<neat arguement snipped>
> That seems pretty heroquesty to me. Childbirth certainly meets the
> 'dangerous' criterion as well.
>
Thats my take on heroquesting too (if I get Simon's drift). Heading out onto
the hero plane is Heroquesting. It doesn't have to be intentional (Snodal?).
Besides I can't think of any other term that covers behaviour so universal
unless it's T&J.
<snip>
>>So they pioneered various
>> heroquests to ensure that their followers could reproduce.
>
> Except that we know the gods already reproduced sexualy, and even
> that our ancestor grandfather mortal (substitute various cultural
> First Ancestors here) was born in this way, so this seems
> unnecessery.
>
But certainly pioneering. Perhaps the motivation was different but the
results the same.
> Simon Hibbs
>> Robert Darvall :
>
>> ...given that control of personal fertility has a
>> history of long standing in Glorantha I would be inclined to make
>> accidental pregnacy the result of a rare combination of magics (i.e. when it
>>suits the story) rather than the feared near inevitability I remember from my
>> youth.Another feather in the cap of the Broo. Their heroquests are powerful
>>enough to subsume all others.
>
> Firstly, the methods for controlling personal fertility in
> glorantha have already been described. If heroquests were
> necessery to cause conception, surely these methods wouldn't be
> required at all - you'd just not do the heroquest. In which case,
> what are they for?
>
1) The quests are unconcious, you don't have the choice to do or not do.
2) Big hole in my arguement. If the quests are incompatible as I propose why
is contraception needed? Bugger....<time passes>.....No, still bugger.
My best shot.
In Heortling & related cultures marriage is not a lifetime exclusive
contract so "divorcees" need some type of protection between marriages. Same
for parts of Peloria. Contraception within marriage to avoid the need for
infanticide.
Do Yelmic & similar women have access to contraception? Would the men
bother? Goes equally for the west.
Basicly divide cultures into 2 types, Puritan with that take on marriage,
sex & contraception, & Barbarian with a Heortlingish attitude to sex etc.
Its very rough & the terms will undoubtedly annoy someone.
The puritans have lifetime contracts & no contraception.
The Barbarians have variable contracts & either good contraception or no
real problem with biological father's identity. (This includes Lodrilites)
This assumes that marriage is the on switch for fertility & that pre-marital
(as opposed to extra marital) sex won't (Orlanthi won't) result in
offspring.
This can vary according to otherworldly being of choice. I'd expect Ulerians
to procreate if they so much as kissed (OK so I exagerate), in any case I'd
expect contraception to be taboo for them. Gods & great spirits can produces
virgin births.
Vingans are the greatest problem for this rationalisation. I've seen
suggestions that they are heavily life oriented, perhaps this predisposes
them to greater fecundity?
Very weak I know.
Alternatively the conception quests are, as Donald suggests, a way of making
sure you get the "right" babies & marriage rites etc align the quests more
closely. This also depends on what the purpose of the marriage. In most
societies I'd expect it to be much more about social & economic issues than
the issue of the loins. This lends greater weight to the various adultery
prohibitions, unsanctioned sex gets the wrong babies. What then of children
gotten by rape? How wrong must they be?
The unconcious 'learnt' heroquest sidesteps Donald's problem with
preparation. The whole society is preparing you for this quest, albeit
mostly unconciously with some concious work at initiation, marriage etc. The
you beaut secret of the various fertility oriented cults is their (varied)
conciousness of their fertility quests.
> Secondly, if accidental pregnancy is so incredibly rare in
> Glorantha, surely this will have enormous demographic
> consequences?
>
Why? Reduce child mortality. I forget the exact outcome of these thrashings
but thrashed they were. IIR even partly correctly child mortality was ruled
to be low in favour of a higher death toll later in life. Also remember that
fertility issues for most folk are about how to produce more kids not less.
"Accidental" pregnancy inside marriage is a rarity compared to C20 Western
RW attitudes, in fact the idea would be almost incomprehensible. Unless
you're facing a serious famine a child is a good thing. Most of the cults
have fertility aspects & the few that don't are definitely fringe. Ernaldan
cult status is at least partially based on personal fertility.
> Thirdly, most broo (the vast majority) are feral, and are not
> educated in any religious practices at all. Where do they learn
> these potent broo heroquests?
>
Same place as people "learn" them, through contact with others of their
kind. Those broo (& people) who do not learn them are a self limmitting
problem
>
>> I'd think the rites are there to either shape or modify the quests.
> The
>> behaviour is certainly unconcious but I would suggest not
> instinctive ...
>
> That still doesn't explain why so many human societies in
> Glorantha have so many rituals in common. Why do they parallel
> each other so much? Either these rites were communicated in some way
> across all Glorantha (contrary to mythic history), or they emerge
> naturaly from instinctive behaviour.
>
They don't have rites in common. Heortling rites are not the same as Yelmic
ones. I'd suggest, as I did earlier, that the conception quest is more
difficult the further you get from home. There is less dissimilarity between
these unconcious quests than between say, marriage rites because they do
emerge from instinctive behaviour but are not themselves instinctive but
unconcious learned behaviour. This, of course, is subject to the
contraception caveat above.
Then again Andrew Barton has raised a nifty question 'Whose quest is it anyway?' If it is middle world folk being dragged into otherworld quests it all makes more sense. (This does have RW parrallels still extant, but you can say that of just about anything). Under this idea (which I like more as I think about it):
a)Contraception is ritual baby repellent either hiding the potential mother from the pre-nate or making her/him unattractive to it.
b)Accidental pregnancy is the spirit-child grabbing the opportunity.
c)Broo could become the physical manifestation of part of Thed. A spirit entering via their own quest which drags the mortals in as unconcious participants. This would also be consistent with the fecundity of broo. Thed qualifies as a pretty powerful entity, certainly powerful enough to overcome any single mortal's immediate defences.
The (is there a single word in any language for "as yet unconcieved indiviual"?) still (mostly) needs sex either to attract the god's/spirit's attention (I won't speculate on mystics as I am too far from any understanding there) or open the path or both. Animists need not involve sex at all. Some RW animists as late as 1970 believed that the spirit-child was quite capable of finding its own mother.
Andrew Barton
>
> But you can be drawn into someone else's quest without any intent, possibly
> without knowing it.
>
> Maybe sometimes a spirit is questing to be reborn?
>
> Andrew
>
Andrew Solovay in reply to Donald.
> (This could have practical consequences--other, less friendly, spirits might
> take advantage of the weakened barrier between the worlds. Perhaps animists
> always use protective magic when they have sex?
Part of the unconcious Ritual?
>If nothing else, they'd be worried about drawing a bad spirit into their baby.
Depends on their view of conception. If, as thought among some RW cultures,
conception is independent of sex other precautions would be needed.
>
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