Re: Five Horned Star and Malkioni Titles

From: Julian Lord <jlord_at_free.fr>
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 14:47:07 +0100

Andrew :  

> Picking up on a point in Terra Incongita's post (though I think he was
> quoting) ...
>
> > There is no definitive superiority or inferiority among duke, count
> > and earl
> > and their difference are derived from their linguistical origin.
>
> The relationship between Count and Earl in England at least -is-
> definitive. They're the same thing, which is why the wife of an Earl
> has the title Countess.

Neither of these statements is 100% true.

Or maybe the question is being asked the wrong way.

The real questions, IMO, are :

1. How much land does the noble control ?
2. Is the noble enfeoffed or not ?
3. If so, to whom ?
4. Is his title a purely honorific one ?
5. What kind of noble are we talking about : ecclesiastical ? military ? magistrature ? (in Glorantha : magical ?)
6. Was the individual raised to the nobility, or did he inherit his title and lands/whatever ?

In actual RW feudal systems, a simple Chevalier could be worth more than a Duke. Most systems were basically screwed by the fact that the sons of highly important nobles were often given lowly titles, but in fact worth more that the apparently more glorious titles of lesser men.

> In all the mediaeval systems I've come across, a Duke has precedence
> over a
> Count/Earl (anyone know of exceptions?).

Hmmmm, John Wayne ?

OK, maybe not.

FWIW the title of Duke is derived from an old Roman word meaning something like Commander or Fuehrer, so it's definitely conceivable as a degree of nobility that could in some particular Gloranthan instances be considered inferior to other degrees that would, in the English system, not be considered so.

I can definitely envisage Western military commanders being given the title, whilst remaining socially inferior to the Counts and Princes.

Obviously, that would vary from school to school of Malkionism.

Anyway, I think it most likely that there would not be one single overriding and universal hierarchy of noble titles, but that Malkionism would englobe a plethora of mutually exclusive systems, whilst simultaneously having a pragmatic understanding of the real worth of each individual noble, no matter what his title might actually be.

Much like in RW Medieval West, really.

> In Roman times, though,
> Comes w= as a higher rank than Dux.

Oh, right, sorry, preaching to the converted.

> Also, a given mediaeval lord with
> the title of Duke could easily owe homage for some of his lands to
> another lord with t= he title Count.

ditto

> For Glorantha, the only thing I'd say is unrealistic is a nice neat
> syste= m which is the same in all countries.

ditto

Julian Lord

PS Did I just break Rule n° 1 ?

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