> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 00:17:10 +0000
> From: Joerg Baumgartner <joe_at_toppoint.de>
> To: glorantha_at_rpglist.org
> Subject: Re: Noble titles
> Reply-To: glorantha_at_rpglist.org
>
> Andrew Barton
>
> >> ... The Merovingian and Carolingian monarchs appointed their
> >> "companions" (comites in Latin, which evolved into "counts")
> >> as royal administrators of regions under their control.
Surely.
<<[Middle English counte, from Old French conte, from Late Latin comes,
comit-, occupant of any state office, from Latin, companion.]
The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation. All rights reserved.>>
>
> > Comes (plural comites) was already a formal rank in Imperial
> > Rome (a high official in Britain was the 'Count of the Saxon
> > Shore'), but it's quite possible that the Merovingians weren't
> > using the term that way.
>
I think we should more speculate scandinavian influence about this topic as
Greg himself is greatly influenced by the imagery of Stanford Bridge and
Harald Hardrada.
> Basically, most ranks of nobility are derived from offices. A few
> offices have failed to become hereditary.
What makes the matter difficult is gloranthan orlanthi and malkioni have
completely different origins not like to RW parallels.
>
> Now, to get this back on topic for this list, the logical source for the
> Orlanthi High Nobility titles would be Umath's Camp or Vingkot's range
> of companions, right?
Though I understand your position, Gods and demigods are immortals and no
use of titles.
As far as I read Orlanthi mythology, like mythology of "Orlanth makes Storm
Tribe", they have not fixed titles of administration aside from vulgar terms
of classes like thanes or nobles. Maybe heortling thinks such change of
society ("barbarism" to centralized society) is inevitable but a necessary
evil. So maybe constant titles are not prefered as some RW cultures.
As I last mentioned in my post of Heortling kingship:
Martin Laurie seems to assume that originally Vingkotling appointed
Eo(a?)rls for the local administration.
http://www.celtic-webs.com/glorantha/campaigns/gwandor/saga/gwandor55.html
<<He spat at Gudny’s feet to emphasise his point. Vornidal went on to say
that there was no precedent for the very existence of an Eorl and the Malani
had no wish to acknowledge one now. “High King Kodig established the first
Eorls in the Vingkot Age,” replied Gudny. “He formed the Five Vingkotlings
Nations and appointed sub-kings under him. The Vingkotling tribes answered
to the sub-kings.” Vorindal snorted, “We are Heortlings! Kodig’s ways led
to the Sword and Helm war and the downfall of the Storm peoples. Heort
taught us better ways and they don’t include you self-styled sub-kings!”
>>
<<
[Middle English erl, nobleman of high rank, from Old English eorl.]
The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation. All rights reserved.>>
Recently, I don't have enough time, so I can't confirm my assumption that it is related to "jarl"s of Danelaw like Cnut the Great's reign.. (Storm Khan seems to be abandoned or limited its use to praxians for the unfitness in Storm Tribe. So uroxi disciples are called fury Jarls.)
>
> This would apply to the Heortlander post-Andrinic titles as well, if I
> remember Peter's statement that the Heortlander titles, while similar in
> name and sound to Malkioni ranks (or the translations thereof into
> usable English), are basically Vingkotling or even older. We get Dukes,
> Earls, Barons and Sheriffs as carryover from earlier publications, plus
> a few newer introductions (like the adaptation of medieval English
> "Warders").
>
> Where and how do they fit into the Vingkotling society?
> What do we know about Vingkotling society, anyway?
Even without refering Peter's "Crimson Greg" in Questline Fanzine, we don't
know enough about Vingkotling Age. For example, from Vingkot to Heort, there
is only seven generations. (Enclosure)
But Ivarne was imprisoned in Ice Tomb over 100 Generations (Storm Tribe
p.240), as Uz Lore myth of old Troll Pack stated about Great Darkness if she
is vingkotling. Perhaps rationally or logically, royal blood maintained long
its divinity and kings lived longer than their subjects and populace in
Darkness.
Maybe Mark Galeotti will show us some answer in his Esvulari and heortling Article in Tradetalk #12 even if we can't wait the release of delayed Kerofinela.
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