Re: Carmanos

From: Kevin P. McDonald <paul_mcdonald_at_ncsu.edu>
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 23:14:35 -0400


Peter makes some insightful observations:

>>I have to assume that Syranthir was the primary teacher of Fronelan thought to Carmanos.
>>
>>
>Actually Estrekor, a magician that came westward with Syranthir.
>

I am assuming that Carmanos did not meet Estrekor until *after* Carmanos revealed the Truth of Idovanus. Because of this, I was assuming that he received Estrakor's teachings second-hand via Syranthir.

On the other hand, Greg's article in Enclosure #1 says "Romanakrin Wisdom was incorporated by the Prophet Karmanos into his revolutionary dualistic religion." Did this happen after he presented the Book of Two at Brinnus? Was his dualistic faith developed over his lifetime as First Shah? Was Carmanos somehow watching or communicating with Estrekor magically from Castle Blue? Or did Carmanos leave Castle Blue to wander Pelanda for some time before showing up in Brinnus with the Book of Two?

>If by Fronelan thought, you meant sorcerous concepts in general then the pelandans have knowledge of that since the Storm Age.
>

Nah, I meant Estrekor's Romanakrin "One Mind" teachings.

>>So what were those Lake Oronin Blues like?
>>
>>
><Entekosiad references deleted> So it seems that there's two types of blue people there - the Oroninae, the conquerors of fire mountain and the YarGanites - the servants of the evil god.
>

That makes sense - The YarGanite/Logician rule is sometimes confused with the Blues because the they served YarGan after being conquered. The Blues conquered Pelanda in the Flood, YarGan usurped power from the old Blue King and appointed a puppet, and Bisos deposed the Blue Puppet and then defeated YarGan - transforming him into "The Bounty of All Mankind" - although I don't precisely know what is meant by that.

>>Were they South Oredanarans - former Wendarians who married with the Blues of the Sweet Sea?
>>
>>
>The descendants of the south Oredanarans are the people of Bindle
>

Yep, but that doesn't mean that the people of Bindle constitute *all* the South Oredanarians. I am assuming that the Blue invasion was composed both of aquatic Blues from under the Sweet Sea and their (mostly) human relatives.

>>Are they Waertagi that came west to destroy Ladral?
>>
>>
>Ladaral is further west beneath the Neliomi Sea.
>

Right again. I once thought Fire Mountain was Mount Ladral but Revealed Mythologies put an end to that idea. The destruction of Fire Mountain seems like a kind of "echo" of the Mount Ladral destruction, though. I don't see why the Waertagi of the Neliomi Sea, which covered most of Fronela at the time (including the Sweet Sea itself), couldn't have been involved in both events.

>Syranthir investigated Castle Blue because of the legends of the Blue King
>I'd thought. Since Yargan's crown is the immortal crown of Oronin (said
>in Elder Secrets to be Adamant), a quest for kingship over the surrounding
>lands rather than a prophetic retreat is indicated.
>

I was suggesting Carmanos took the "prophetic retreat", not his father. I agree that Syranthir was seeking sovereignty using the Blue King myths when he quested to Castle Blue. After all, Castle Blue was prominent and much more involved with the shore folk in those days - it was the obvious place to go if you wanted to acquire the holy mantle of rule.

I wonder if there were tensions between the Bisosae and Castle Blue over the Pelandan underclass in the Lake Oronin city-states? Were the denizens of Castle Blue assisting in the (failing) defense of those cities against the Spolites? The Redline History on the Issaries website makes this seem possible. (Thanks Terra!)

I like the idea that during the education of Carmanos at Castle Blue, Carmanos was able to magically view events on the shore of Lake Oronin (a scrying pool?) and saw the growing fear and confusion resulting from the long absence of Syranthir and the returning Spolite strength. He saw those left behind (by Syranthir) desperately grasping at anything that they thought could save them from what seemed like inevitable doom. Carmanos might have been questing to discover the ultimate Truth so that he could dispel the fear and confusion among the people he was born to lead. This would make the impact of his revelations much more dramatic.

>>The immortals of Castle Blue don't seem to have much connection with the High Gods, at least on the surface. Its a mystery.
>>
>>
>The High Gods are Pelandan rather than Carmanian. Although there are many linkages between the two mythologies, there is much that separates them.
>

Yes - but the Carmanian faith didn't appear out of a void. Carmanos (and subsequent prophets) were the ones to reveal the points of unity and separation between the older faiths, and also reveal some very important things that were completely new. This process was more than synthesis, as you rightly observed. It was the revelation of the divine Truth beyond both religions. I don't think dualism would be all that revolutionary in the Jernotian Land of Balance. As you say (below) - the Truth and the Lie were the revolution.

>I would stress instead the role of the Lie. As one of the Ten Thousand,
>Carmanos would be affected by the need to oppose the Lie, rather than
>God Learner speculation about reconciling Gods and Sorcery. The motif
>is a popular one giving that the Ten Thousand are still sore about the
>beating they took from the God Learners and they like the Pelandans
>are fighting off the Spolites. What they lack is a moral compass that
>gives them a sense of certainty.
>

Thanks for this insight - it brought allot of things into focus.

>>In his searching, the answer he found was the Pelandan god Idovanus, one of the High Gods.
>>
>>
>I would delete mention of the High Gods here as there is a conflict between
>Idovanus as one of the High Gods and Idovanus as the Creator. Secondly
>Idovanus was already known as the Creator in Pelanda as far back as the
>Storm Age.
>

I don't see a conflict - the Pelandans believed that Idovanus was both Creator and God of Order without it being an issue. (although why this is I don't know). Still, it makes a big difference what perspective the article is being written from. Certainly modern Carmanians would play down the connection.

By the way, just how did the Mountain Mystics of the Jernotian Way survive for hundreds of years under the Shahs? Were they in hiding all that time or did the Carmanians just not care enough to wipe them out?

>Secondly the identification between Irensavel and Idovanus is something
>that most of the Ten Thousand could have worked out by themselves, and
>if they couldn't then there were Logicians on hand to drop unsubtle hints. I
>think it more likely that everybody knew that Idovanus had the answer but
>that GanEstoro prevented people from speaking to him.
>

Interesting point! Syranthir left on his quest soon after breaking the siege at Brinnus, though. I doubt there was much time for anyone to make the connection before he departed. The connection could have been made during the two decades between Syranthir's departure and the return of Carmanos. Possibly one of many ideas being considered during the dark years when a Spolite victory seemed inevitable.

>>He completed hideously dangerous quests involving both the Sorcerery and
>>God planes, and reached the ultimate Truth behind each faith - the
>>Carmanian Religion was born.
>>
>>
>This is getting a bit artificial (not to mention that questing is done on the
>Heroplanes). Carmanos sounds to me more like an inspired prophet rather than a religious syncretizer.
>
>I would stress Carmanos's need to speak to Idovanus. And to do that, he
>must overcome GanEstoro or a worldly representative. Since YarGan
>wears Oronin's adamant crown, Carmanos in defeating him, not only gets
>to speak to Idovanus but ends up wearing becoming the magical ruler
>of ancient Wendaria/Pelanda.
>

More excellent points, although I don't know that YarGan still had the crown after being defeated by Bisos. You are correct in that the trials of Carmanos should be depicted as moral and spiritual more than an epic adventure full of daring-do.

As for the Adamant Crown of Oronin - did YarGan really have it? Bisos defeated him, so I had assumed the crown to be lost. One idea would be that Syranthir recovered the crown to marry Charmain only to discover that being the Blue King wasn't as great as it was in the old days. This might be why he was not able to depart the island. Carmanos would have inherited his fathers regal position but instead went in another direction...

>The Carmanians weren't interested in Syranthir until a couple of centuries later when Nadar went on a rampage in Fronela.
>

I am not sure I agree with that, although I have heard it before. Where does the idea come from?

>Secondly the Ten Thousand were an army, not a hereditary fief. If Carmanos was
>to exert influence over them, then IMO he needed something stronger than "my daddy lead you lot and my mommy's a goddess". Considering Syranthir's personal misfortune (his missus slept with his brother), the Ten Thousand might be very skeptical about rights based on kinship.
>

This is all insightful stuff. Based on this, I would say that Syranthir went to Castle Blue more out of desperation than ambition. He needed Charmain's blessing just to keep his people together, hope alive, and his authority intact. The dream of becoming King of the Oronin Valley would seem pretty hopeless when faced with the smothering Gloom - Charmain or no Charmain.

>The reconciliation between Loskalmi and Pelandan religions had already been carried out over the past ages by the Logicians.
>

Maybe, but I am not under the impression that the Logicians were philosophers. They seem more like atheistic sorcerers concerned only with their own power to me. Admittedly this is based on insufficient information, so YGWV.

>Hence I think Carmanos was respected because he was ordained by
>Idovanus as Shah and that he provided a clear, accessible answer to
>the spiritual angst that plagued the Ten Thousand and possibly some
>Pelandans.
>
>I don't think his position as Shah carried anything close to the absolute
>political power that his successors enjoyed. Rather it was more like
>a Pope, somebody which the powers pay great deference to publicly
>even if they disagree with you. His successors used their position
>to accumulate political power to transform the Shahdom into an
>all-powerful monarchy.
>

Very insightful - I agree completely.

>But the good reasons are not compelling for all Bisosae for nine hundred
>years after the arrival of the Ten Thousand, there are still significant
>numbers of non-Carmanian Bisosae.
>

True, but I think most of these non-Carmanian Bisosae are in Vanstal and the Worian hills rather than around Lake Oronin. Around Lake Oronin (IMHO), Bisos as the Right Hand of Idovanus holds sway.

>But the plain old polluted Bisos still survives. The Pelandan farmers and
>warriors worship him but believe in the Jernotian Way, not the Carmanian
>rites.
>

I think this is the result of a post-carmanian Jernotian revival in Oronin and Doblian rather than a continuous tradition. This is just my opinion, though.

Greg adds:

>i'd first like to remind everyone that even in modern Glorantha different people have different opinions of what REALLY happened.
>

Thanks to you (and Terra) for the reminder - POV really does make a big difference. I am usually to focused on figuring out what "really happened" and not focused enough on figuring out what different groups *believe* happened.

>>>I don't know either, since the cult seems alive and
>>>well in the Western
>>>Reaches according to ILH-1. Perhaps this is an
>>>obsolete idea?
>>
>>
>Carmanian dualism is certainly alive and well in Carmania.
>

True! I was specifically referring to the cult of Karmanos Law-Bringer worshipped by Carmanian petty nobles in ILH-1. Just for the record. :)

>>>Ah! I had not made the distinction between
>>>"sorcery" and "wizardry".
>>>That helps allot, IMO.
>>
>>
>The HQ system of magic is called Wizardry, which includes most of the monotheistic churches. Sorcery is, in vocabulary, only a subset of wizardry which is not subject to any church dominance.
>

What I was trying to say is that the Magi might be practicing a form of Veneration rather than Sorcery. They have access to Blessings rather than Spells. They might have both, though. Sorcery is morally dangerous but if the Magi can't handle it then who can? Still, I don't see it as their primary focus.

>It is possible that Idovanus is either a force that is neither wizardry nor theist, a mystic kind of philosophy. Alternately, it is possible that TWO ENTITIES are both worshipped as Idovanus.
>And it's still possible that it's an entity in its own short world.
>

Interesting ideas, one and all. Thanks!

~Kevin McD

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