Jerome Blondel says:
>There is another requirement, to have a Great
>Secret which binds the aspects together.
Excellent point here.
This means that the Great Being must include all possibilities of the power in question, and ALSO include access to something other than the knowable powers in question.
The key point here is that Great Gods are something else besides what they are now, or can be known, to be.
Great Secret, Double Rune, or Source of Rune are all phrases that have been used to try to designate this status.
>From: Chris Lemens <chrislemens_at_yahoo.com>
Chris wisely warns,
>but will probably get it partially wrong.
And so with tht caveat, and my confession that we didn't quite finish Chris' conversation on the subject:
>I asked Greg whether it would be true that these
>types of gods can never pop out of existence due to a
>lack of worshippers. I think Greg said yes, that is
>true.
I think that it is NOW impossible for those beings to disappear, BECAUSE they are the source of that power. That is, they either don't need worshippers, or the worshippers can never be exterminated.
>He agreed that at least some entities can
>die or dissolve, and that some cannot, but I think he
>may have wanted to reserve the possibility of some
>types of entities that are not sufficiently connected to
>a rune, but nonetheless cannot die off.
I do not think the Rune Sources can be exerminatged. Any other can be, in theory, but in practice I do not think it is likely. I know that many people among you out there think that Orlanth was destroyed by Argrath, ala KoS, but I don't think this is absolutely so myself. (YGWV)
>(Also, I should note that I am using "double-rune
>connection here very loosely. We used lots of
>different phrases for the concept and never defined it
>specifically. "Holder of the rune" was another
>phrase.)
I might use the definition that they are the entirely of concepts of that rune, and something else that can never be known (because it is mystical or transcendant).
>Defiant entities might be in this hypothetical class,
Having watched the splendid gyrations and contortions of two of Glorantha's leading philosophers (on this very list), I would suggest that the idea of defining the defiant entities be ignored until the upcoming HQ Epic unravels the mysteries of Glorantha some more.
>I also asked him whether the double-rune connection is
>a "transcendant" relationship of some sort. He said
>definitely not.
Here is where Chris' caveat pays off. I was apparantly not clear in this, or he is wrong.
>The double-rune connection is a
>connection to the immaterial, which is one of the
>non-transcendant worlds
The double-rune is more than a connection of, or a domination of, the material and imaterial.
>(material, immaterial, and
>transcendant are the three--with transcendant being
>all that is neither material nor immaterial).
This is, of course, a fact true for Glorantha (as well as our own world) but one which I suggest be ignored and avoided. I mean, that is, that trying to define the undefinable (ie-the mystical) can lead only to confusion, perhaps madness. We are better off to work on
>However, the double-rune gods can be a doorway to the
>transcendant in some way that I don't fully
>understand. The example is, I think, that a
>Humakti could transcend the material world through Death,
>but would still have to transcend immaterial Death
>itself.
Would have to transcend material death, immaterial death, and somethign else as well. I see no real point in trying to define this, though. It's something that can not be handled in the rules as they stand, neither HW nor HQ.
> And then he would have to transcend the desire to
>reach transcendance.
You must not desire to not desire...
>One could probably achieve the
>same thing using "this rock right here", since one
>ultimately has to transcend everything anyway. Greg
>seemed to agree with this.
Yes, sort of.
>My further speculation:
>perhaps the paths through the first part are easier
>with the double-rune gods for some reason--maybe
>because the purity of their being allows one to
>transcend anything other than that purity, though I
>would think that makes the step of transcending that
>purity harder.
We are entering into double talk here, rather than clarity. I know quite well I engage in double talk (like I did above), but I do not claim it to be able to bring clarity.
>From: "Julian Lord" <jlord_at_free.fr>
>Douglas :
>> If the requirement for a Great God is
>> a) aspects
>> b) one of the cornerstones of a large community
>> then Great Gods can die/go away/become reduced.
>>It is rare, and when
>> they do, they usually leave traces, but it can
>happen.
>
>Yes.
I am not sure that a Great God can disappear. In fact, I am not sure that there was ever a Great God before Time began. Look at it this way: the entire Gods War in all its aspects is a process of defining the gods and moprtals and demons; of separating them by their differences. The Modern World is the step in the process where Great Gods were defined, as being that which I discussed way above here.
>> I imagine that
>> Vadrus was a Great God, and he's mostly gone.
>
>Hmmm ... don't think so myself, but could be
>convinced otherwise.
He might have been close, but didnt make it. How do we know? Well, he's not aroudn now. He doesn't exist as a separate being.
>> Also reduced from Great God would be Heler, who at one >>point had multiple aspects (ruler, sailor,
>> warrior, fisherman, etc) and lead a people who were
>> fighting the Vingkotlings and doing pretty well, but now >>is just a Big God.
>Right, but from this POV I think he was a Big God who >became Great,
No. He's not even a Big God. He is gone.
>Heler was originally Part of a Greater entity, that Shargash
>destroyed. It was the theist remnant that became Heler
>and got to be King of the Hill. For a while.
An acceptable explanation is that Heler is the child or Oslira and Shargash. There are other explanations, too...
>Vadrus still receives a hell of a lot of collateral
>worship AFAIK,
He is rememberd at all because of this collatoral worhsip, but he gets none, and if you sacrified to him, you'd get nothing back.
>Heler ? I don't know. There are many still unpublished
>subcults of Heler (none officially written-up AFAIK),
And, I will stress here, non-canonical.
>including a cloud mariners one,
Except these guys are real, I wil confess. Just forgotten for now.
>but I do not believe
>that Heler has Aspects among Genertelan Orlanthi,
>or even Manirian Coast Helerings.
Agreed.
>The only place where such Aspects might possibly
>have survived (and even this possibility is
>dubious) would be Umathela.
Nope, no aspect there either...
NOW, if that's not enough to confuse and discourage you, consider that I beleive there to be Rune Sources for the other two magic systems as well (Sorcery and Animism) but that there are none for the Common Magic.
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End of Glorantha Digest
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