>From: Ian Gorlick <ian_gorlick_at_sympatico.ca>
>If you're
>seeking the great mystical experience, but are
>otherwise still part of the
>normal emotional world, you still have a chance to
>connect with a party.
My point here is that a true mystic, who has access to the otherworldly mystical powers, doesn't have that "part of the normal emotional world"
>Rather like Grasshopper, who spouted all the lines
>he'd memorized, but still
>pitched in and helped like an ordinary bloke.
I don't consider the TV version of Shaolin Buddhism to be the type of mystic that I am talking about either. Great TV show, great character type, but not mystical as I have defined it.
> Mystics certainly exist; everybody agrees
>with that. Mystics as NPC's who
>charter PC's to do stuff, or grant oracles, again,
>no probs. Mystics as PCs
>are a problem because, like dragonewts, they live
>in a mental world that's so
>different from our own that we don't comprehend
>many of their motivations or
>actions.
Very nicely said, there and in what you followed with.
>In this regard, it's rather
>like the problems with Eurmali
>as PC's. You can't trust them, you can't predict
>them, and that's bad for
>player and PC morale.
Agreed.
>From: "Olof Nergard" <olof.nergard_at_amersham.com>
>Learning by mystery could be translated as learning
>by reflection and not by dictum.
Could be, but it's still wrong.
>Example is Sokrates, Mithras cult, Isis, and modern
>freemasonry.
None of which qualify as mystical.
Socrates was a hilosopher searing for perfection, not an escape from the rigors and pains of the world.
The Mithras and Isis cults were both mystery religions, and we know very little about either of them but what we do know does not seem to have anything to do with attaining enlightment through transcendant means.
I don't have a clue what you may mean by modern freemasonry so cannot comment.
>I would personally regard Samurai and Jedi as full
>blooded mystics.
I disagree, as you know.
>As they have a a defined spiritual context,
>a defined way, and enlightement (important) by
>reflection.
None of those are what I have classified as mystical. All the spitiual practices have a defined context, a defined way and I don't believe that enilghtment by reflection qualifies as what I've defiend to be the core essence of Gloranthan mysticism. The only thing that can be reflected are falsities.
>The Taraltaran whirling blade mystic seem to me
>like a cross breed of
>dervishes(turkish dance freaks) and samurai (Zen
>practitioners)
>Ie ritual sword dance to enforce myth and gain
>insight.
Colorful, interesting and fun, but not mystics.
>Furthermore even if they are not mystics they
>should be to add more game fun ;-)
Whle I am a firm believer in MGF, I don't encourage getting it by perverting the definitions of this to get there. Mind you, there ARE those kind of things, and we will be working to define the dervish samauri kung fu jedi way. But it's still not mysticism.
>From: "Antonio Alvarez del Cuvillo"
>But, IMO, there are 'less-deep' approachs in
>Glorantha for mysticism (as in
>the real word), or incomplete forms of it (but sort
>of mysticism).
I agree, but they still aren't mysticism.
>-We are told in HW that Illumination was an
>incomplete form of mysticism.
Wherein incompelte = failed, like a dervish samauri kung fu jedi would be. This whole idea is sort of a subset of mysticism, whereas mysticism is an excepion to normal rules, and it is an exception to an exception. Hence, not worth putting into the HQ rules themselves.
>I like this idea, and I think the Illuminates are
>people who have discerned
>(seen, touched, etc.) mystical Trascendence, but
>they are in fact entangled
>in the magical word (material and immaterial), so
>they apply their
>understandings to the world made of illusion,
>sometimes for good, sometimes
>for bad. So, a lunar Illuminate may have seen that
>in the Void there is no
>difference between Cosmos and Chaos, so, he could
>be indifferent to this
>dichotomy in the Inner World (or in the Other
>World), where Chaos and Cosmos
>'really' exists.
Whereas your definition above is pretty much correct, it's not mysticism but bad mysticism. I agree that this exists. But it's never good, it always results in error.
>-Another example could be dragonewt arts. I think
>their magic is of mystical
>nature (in some sense), but, if they use it in
>'illusory' reality, they
>become more entangled in Illusion.
That is how they turn into "dinosaurs."
>-But I am thinking in some places where 'normal'
>people share some 'mystical
>believings' with Real-True, etc. Mystics, as in the
>real world. They really
>believe in a sort of Trascendence or Liberation nor
>material nor immaterial
>(say, Tao, Nirvana or Ouroboros, Durapdur), but
>they do not follow a true
>mystical path. Sure they practice 'normal' magic as
>theism, but probably,
>they have some sort of mystical believing and
>magic. And, which is
>important, they are playable. Probably a bad
>analogy: common worshiper vs. Devotee.
Thje analogy is bad, and I'll tell you you are absolutely right that there are people whose practices are beleived to be mystical but in fact are theist, animist and sorcerous. That is, they are not mystics.
>-For example, Kralorela. There are a strange
>synthesis between draconic
>mysticism and practical, logical, wise thought (a
>sort of Taoism vs
>confucionism). But there is not opposition; there
>is a continuum between
>practical thought and 'Pure Mysticism'. IMG, the
>explanation for this
>contradiction is a sort of 'karman'.
The continuum is an illusion and not real mysticism. Sorry.
>I see Godunya religion as a Common Religion (that
>has a kind of mystical
>nature), which provides common talents.
Nice insight, and very good. Very close. Good!
>But, IMO, most
>alchemists and martial artists are too entangled
>with material/immaterial
>world for being true mystics. However, I think most
>of them follow mystical
>paths and use a kind of 'mystical' magic.
If my mystical magic you mean common magic,you are still pretty much online her.
>Talents which could be used for
>more than augmenting?
Again, this is the kind of exception that is outside the rules, and is one of the mystical-like effects. You are right on.
>-IMO, most Alchemists are entangled before their
>search for Immortality.
>But, they want to be immortals for liberating
>theirselves from the cycle of
>reborns. When the Alchemist become Immortal, he may
>begin to look seriously
>for trascendence.
So they think!
>-I think most martial artists follow mystical paths
>(at least de Four
>Dragons style and things like that), but they are
>entangled in Conflict.
Exactly. And by applying their arts, they become more entangled.
>Perhaps some of them are 'paying their debts' in
>pasts lives, or perhaps
>some of them are a sort of 'Bhoddisattvas', so they
>delay theirselves in
>their path of Liberation for protecting other
>people's path.
Bhoddisattvas exist in Glorantha, as have been illustrated. Mairnali,for instance. Then people go and ruin it for themselves by worshipping her. Sheesh.
>Anyway, I don't see this martial artists as
>theists, wizards or animists.
>They practice a sort of 'basic' mysticism.
Actually, most of the people who think they are practicing mysticism often end up using one of those other methods to express their powers.
>Perhaps I'm thinking in mysticism as a
>'progression', which have many levels
>in many lives. The deeper levels are probably
>unplayable, but the lighter
>ones are playable. Mystical perspective is
>necessary for understanding some
>'normal' characters, as, I think, Kralorelans.
The answer fail here, becasue they re stil entangled and that makes it false mysticism.
>So, in my book, Kung-Fu stuff is mysticism, but
>this is not mysticism (roll for Illumination) ;-)
>
>One more time sorry for my English, and sorry for
>the pseudo-Philosophical-almost-unplayable stuff. ;-)
Very good insights Antonio.
My main disagreement is that these are not mysticism light because there is no such thing. But otherwise, right on!
>From: "Roderick and Ellen Robertson"
>Well, they *aren't* true mystics, according to the
>new definition of mysticism. Sure, they may have some hokie philosophical stuff, but they are no more mystics than the kids going around saying "there is no spoon"
>because they saw it in a kewl movie.
RR is right on here.
>From: "Kevin P. McDonald" <paul_mcdonald_at_ncsu.edu>
>I have to admit some missgivings on this issue.
>While I agree with Greg that true mystics generally sit in meditation and attempt to loose their
>Self and connect with the transcendent, I don't
>really like the idea that the guys in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon (understanding that they
>are not gloranthan characters) are not any kind of
>mystic at all.
OK,I'll put it another way. They are bad mystics, they are failed mystics, they are false mystics, they are deluded mystics, they are entangled mystics, they are not on the true mystical paths.
>This
>seems like throwing the baby out with the bath
>water.
There is not bath,there is no baby. :) Sorry.
>IMHO, fantasy martial artists are able to do their
>stunts because of
>mystical realizations - "There is no spoon", "You
>are the archer, the
>bow, the arrow, the target.", ect.
The above are not mystical realizations. They are magical realizations.
>I don't think
>they do their magic
>through pure skill at arms or the worship of some
>god or spirit. These
>folks are using their mystical insight to transcend
>the illusion of the
>mundane world. If they want to become fully
>enlightened they must go up
>on the mountain, but there is no reason to say that
>the ones who don't
>are practicing something totally unrelated.
Sure there is! It's because they are not using the defined use of mysicism, which is "transcendance of the material and immaterial."
You can argue that you don't like the definition, but it's the definition that I have given to it.
>I see this as similar to the way most worshippers
>of a Great God worship
>aspects to get magical aid, but some worship the
>Great God himself and
>are taken out of play when they learn His secret.
Yep similar it is. Those are transcendant methodologies, BUT THEY ARE NOT MYSTICAL.
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