Alex:
>
> I don't know if you follow hw-rules, so perhaps I should explain the
> context of my use of "innatist". Apparently, talents are now considered
> a type of Common Magic, specifically they are 'innate' Common Magic.
> Hence I speculated that Taraltarans and Kralori martial artists might
> be of this sort, in the sense that the 'magic' they're using to perform
> slice'n'dice and/or spectacular high kicks is basically simply that of
> their own bodies. Perhaps entirely 'mundane' skills, or something of
> the flavour of them ol' "ki skills", whatever.
A very sensible speculation I agree with.
> The question remains, though, whether these are in any way
> distinguishable from "non-mystical" martial artists using "innate skills".
Well, as per Greg's definition of mystics, there is no such distinction as all martial atrists are non-mystical. Another very sensible approach IMO as it unburdens us from the weird "manifest mysticism".
> I think this comes down to basically two things:
>
> o Their attitudes to 'otherworldly' magic; and
> o Whether they have access to, and whether they choose to use,
> "transcendent" power, of any sort.
>
> I think we have, if not well-documented then at least heavily hinted at,
> examples of 'mystics' that spurn the use of otherworldly magic, but do
> manifest transcendent power in the inner world. Zolathi, and the like.
> I think these are (at least some of) what Greg is called failed/bad mystics.
> This I wouldn't disagree with.
Me neither. With the current definition I think you can start on a (true) mystic path and gain powers, but as soon as you start using them you are no longer a real mystic, you cannot (easily) get back on track to liberation.
> Then again, there are those that talk some kind of mystical talk, but
> do manifest 'powers'.
What about this then: these (martial artists and others) are using the same techniques (meditation, asceticism etc.) as "true" mystics, but knowingly or not, they are not on the true way to transcendence, but rather develop useful powers (talents and possibly other magic if their practice includes worship).
Simon Phipp:
>
> By the way, the Shaolin traditionally gain their special abilities through
> the development and control of Chi, not through any mystical abilities. As
> far as I know, their main regimen is that of achieving self-control through
> exercise of Chi, martial arts and physical exercise. The fact that they are
> also Buddhists and so are trying to achieve another state of being is
> incidental to their legendary prowess as this training does not give them
> their reputed special abilities.
A very excellent point which I have (with limited success) tried to make regarding japanese martial arts and zen.
Apply that on Glorantha and I think you end up with something that makes sense (and which is playable).
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