One Last Try

From: Greg Stafford <greg_at_glorantha.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 08:49:21 -0800


RE: Mystics

First: YGWV.

>From: "Antonio Alvarez del Cuvillo"

>More mysticism (sorry if it begins to be boring)

I'll confess that I'm getting a bit tired of saying the same thing over and over. Bu at least this time, thanks to Antonio's question, I think I can put it into terms that are at least clear.

>Greg:
>> This is a good place to clarify something
>furthermore: If your practice
>> uses any of the intermediary forms to reach
>mysticism, then it's not a real
>> mystical practice as I have defined it.
>TI:
>> See above, Greg's statement about intermediary
>forms of "mysticism".

Wherein I said that if you use any form of intermediary, then it isn't mysticism.

>This is my main problem for understanding the
>concept.
>
>I understand that a Mystic is 'someone who search
>or who find some (or THE)
>trascendental truth, nor material nor immaterial'.

I think many people are making exactly that mistake, Antonio. I am defining the mysical system, in the same way that I have defined the theistic, animist and sorcerous system. It's not just about the object of the search, it is about the method.

>In some wide (and probably inapropiate) sense, all
>gloranthan religions and
>magical practicals could be mystical,

Better said, all Gloranthan religions and magical practices could include the mystical...

>because their myths are in some sense,
>a human form to understand the Truth (as some
>people have well explained).

>But, of course, we have to be more strict. So, we
>say 'If you use some
>intermediation, you are not a 'mystic'. OK, I
>understand. So, you worship
>Great Orlanth, you know Orlanth myths, you learn
>the Great Secret, you
>dissapear from the game. Sort of trascendental
>thing, but not mystic.

Exactly right. You are confusing the transcendant objecive with the mystical method.

>BUT my problem is that mystics (I suppose) are in
>the magical (illusory)world.
>What can they do? They have to begin with
>something. All the things
>they can do or not-to-do are things of the illusory
>world, material or immaterial.

This is the whole pont of this discussion. If they use something, they are using something, not the mystical method.

>Perhaps they'll find the Trascendance
>meditating, but, at first,
>meditating could be a mental exercise, so, an
>immaterial thing. Learning a
>'mystical' doctrine about how-to-find-real-truth
>is probably another
>intellectual, illusory, thing. And all 'mystical'
>techniques that I can
>imagine, also are 'intermediations'. Who are the
>mystics?

The ones who do not use the methods of intermediation to try to obtain their objective. And OF COURSE IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO UNDERSTAND!! That is the entire point.
IT CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD.
And that's why it's not in the rules.

>Probably I'm wrong, but, I prefer a concept that
>includes 'people who are trying to be mystics'.

As I said, YGWV. But by making this you are not describing the mystical, though you are describing something of the transcendant.

>So, I would say 'some who believes in some
>trascendental truth, nor material nor immaterial
>and tries to find it'. But
>if they will win or lose in their mystical search,
>or if they are right or
>wrong, is a trascendental thing, and it's beyond
>the game. Perhaps they're
>people in Glorantha who don't believe in some
>Ultimate Reality nor material
>nor immaterial, but they call theirselves
>'mystics',

I've stated from the start that it doesn't matter what they call themselves.

>so, I know they are not
>'mystics', but this is a different concept than a
>'failed mystic' that I
>prefer no to use in objetive (not related to a NPC
>or culture) terms.

Yes, you can say all that if you want. But again I will say, you are redefining what I have been trying to say all along. You are defining the transcendant methodologies, which I have said all along exist. That is, you can use theistic, animist or sorcerous methods to obtain transcendance, but it isn't mysticism. Why? Because mysticism doesn't use those methods.

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