Re: Help. Don't get it. Never really got it...

From: simon_hibbs2 <simon.hibbs_at_marconi.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 14:59:41 -0000


Michi Kossowsky :

>However some of the things said made me wonder about something:
>I always assumed that in Glorantha the gods *do* exist. They
>exist as independent beings just as mortals do. They have will,
>they have agendas, etc.

The Gloranthan gods do exist, but they aren't people, they are gods. Of course that just kicks the question back to 'what is a god'.

>But is that really so? Or are they 'merely' manifestations of
>the = collective belief of the people of Glorantha?=20

I don't believe this is true. That would be to say that Orlanth is not actualy storm, or realy anything to do with storm, he's just a manifestations of what his worshipers think a god of storm should be like.

If that were true, why is his magic powerful, and why do his worshipers actualy manifest storm powers? I think the answer is that actualy Orlanth realy is the storm, and that Orlanth magic gives power over storm because of this. i.e. That it is objectively true that orlanthi beliefs about orlanth being Storm and the winds are true (in glorantha). I also think that other gloranthans also basicaly agree with this, even Malkioni and mystics. However Malkioni would say that just because he is storm doesn't mean people should worship him or that he should therefore have any moral authority over poeple's lives - only the Invisible God is worthy of worship. Mystics would say that orlanth being storm is irrelevent because storm is just part of the world of illusion.

>Possibly irrelevant - in either case I could come up with
>away to = describe how gods now have will and agendas even
>if they are manifestations of = the collective, but it is
>still an interesting idea. Until now I had always looked at
>the gods much they way they are described in Greg Porter's
>WarpWorld game - as independent beings whose power waxes
>and wanes based = on the number of worshippers and POW
>sacrificed.

If all the humans in Glorantha died, would there still be storms? I think so. I think there were storms before there were people too, and the history of the Orlanthi religion is the history of discovering myths and magical rituals and correspondences and ways of thinking about storm that more and more closely reflect the nature of the world, and therefore become more and more powerful. I think that myth appears to be like history, because there is a history to the discovery of myth.

>If they are the result of belief, it actually makes it easier
>to = understand what the Seven Mothers and the EWF were doing
>when they created = ('realized') their gods - they basically
>believed them into existence. Sort of like "Sphere" by Michael
>Crichton...

If this is so, and magic worked simply because you think it will work, surely someone would have discovered this fairly easily? If so, it doesn't matter what the myth actualy is, any myth or any magical ritual should be equaly powerfull whatever the desired result because all you have to do is believe in it. For example perhaps orlanthi rituals to summon clouds should work equaly well for sumoning sunshine, or summoning winds, or summoning broo, or controlling the tides, because what the ritual actualy is doesn't matter - only what you imagine the result should be matters.

Every myth, and every ritual corresponds in fairly obvious symbolic ways to a process or force in the world or Glorantha. Orlanth is a great warrior because storms are violent and dangerous. Olranth had children by Ernalda the earth mother because his rains bring forth life from the earth. They're not arbitrary stories, they tell Gloranthans real things about the world, and knowledge is power. E.g. When people die, they exhale their last breath and breathe no more, just as Humakt gave up his air powers (breath) when he became death, so there realy is a connection between air and death, but it's a broken one. Therefore Humakti can sever their social ties to their kin. It's not just an arbitrary power that's there just because poeple want it and believe it into existence.

For example, Hralf is a gloranthan orlanth worshiper. He's a fast runner, a fierce warrior, and has a wife and children. He's also realy interested in pottery. Hralf goes on a Heroquest to Orlanth's hall and while there comes face to face with his God. Hralf is realy happy, and decides perhaps Orlanth would njoy taking up pottery in his spare time, after all it realy elps Hralf to relax. How much interest will orlanth show in pottery? Is it even remotely possible for orlanth to show any level of understanding of pottery? A human being could, because human beings have free will, and can choose what to be interested in. If orlanth were a free thinking being, you wouldn't need to perform much of a heroquest to make orlanth interested in pottery, you'd just go and talk to him about it, but you can't. Orlanth can't make decisions like that, because he is storm, and he can only ever be what storms are, and do what storm do. He can only manifest as a king of the storm tribe to the extent that this is compatible with his fundamental nature.

All the best,

Simon Hibbs

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