> Trotsky :
> > I believe, strictly speaking, they are defiant entities rather like
> > Storm Bull, effectively being both gods and great spirits at the same
> > time.
Julian :
> Strictly speaking, only a minority of these entities would be defiant
> entities like Storm Bull.
>
> Rather, they have an entirely different cosmology, which means that
> their magicians are very unlike surface ones.
Which is quite fine by me, as long as I get a way to play them.
> > That's what they get for being so fluid :)
>
> Well, their fluidity has mythically enabled a few of their broken
> deities to flow back together again**, the chief of these being Magasta.
Or two deities mingling/merging ?
> But the basic fact is that most of these entities comprise only one
> or more rarely two magical portions. The merpeoople divide the
> cosmos into three worlds :
>
> The Liquid
> Action / Spirit
> Power / Motion
>
> There is also the Dry
Yes. More or less the merpeople equivalent of 'Bad
Place/Hell/Hurtplace/Whatever'.
But the dry is _also_ the place whence comes the food.
I mean, from the beginning, their mythology mentions the surface. So, for them, it's not something resulting from a bad action, the coming of Chaos or the Gods Wars. It's _there_.
> To start with, the Liquid is the physical world of the Oceans.
On that we agree.
> Action/Spirit manifests essentially as magical currents that
> merpeople shamans tap into, but are magically present in
> the waters themselves, and Power/Motion, while it resembles
> what humans would recognise as magic, and theistic magic at that,
> doesn't come from somewhere that humans would recognise as
> an otherworld, but ultimately comes from the Deep.
You could also see Action/Spirit as what inhabits bodies, giving them
the energy to move.
Motion/Power would come from outside, in the form of the great currents.
As you put it elsewhere, the difference between creating ripples and movements in the sea and being borne by it. I suppose it makes sense for a floating creature : you're afloat, immerged, unmoving under the surface : that's Liquid. You move by swimming : that's Action. You are moved by great forces, current : that's Power.
> The Deep, which is an area
> that IMO most humans simply _cannot_ understand.
Yeah, well. And I'm quite sure Glorantha has other laws, down there. The problem is when something comes up. It's ... messy.
Ah, do you make a difference between the Hell Seas, that Waertagi navigated, and the Deep, unknowable, dark and formless ?
> But most merpeople deities do not inhabit the Deep,
Better for them, and us wanting to put them in our games.
> and are either
> Liquids, Spirits, or Gods (Liquid deities are entirely immanent, and
> cannot provide magic to their worshippers, but can be called on to
> provide physical assistance. Basically, Giant Sea Monsters).
OK. Pure 'body', no real divine or spiritual part participating in the creation of the world.
> I understand merpeople "shamans" as being moved by the magical
> currents, whereas merpeople "theists" call upon their deities to move
> the waters for them.
Well, I see merpeople as worshipping currents as gods. Maybe I see gods as more 'consistant' than spirits : once they are on a track, they don't move easily : the big currents, the hole of Magasta. Spirits are more fickle IMO, and would be small movement outside the normal way.
> The "shamans", then, have magical powers to
> affect their own and their allies' bodies and inner selves, whereas the
> "theists" cast "spells" affecting the environment and adversely
> affecting their enemies (hopefully).
Yes.
> There is another class of (powerful) magicians, who call upon
> mixed powers of Action/Spirit and Power/Motion. These are
> hard to understand, because the "pure" magic of this combination
> affects "souls" and "spirits", but not the physical world of the Liquid.
> These magicians deal with the otherworlds, and practice what ignorant
> Dry creatures would easily characterise as "demonology".
I would put Heroic Incarnation and (as you said elsewhere), Ancestors,
in this place.
But IIRC mermen see death as the end. No afterlife.
So, I suppose, no ancestor except very ancient ones, cultural heroes.
Strange to imagine a culture in Glorantha not having an afterlife. Put them on an equal basis with Brithini and Vadeli.
> Some cults comprise all three elements, such as Magasta, and
> potential Heroes are naturally attracted to such cults ; not to say
> that all merpeople Heroes belong to them.
I think Magasta is both the seas, the current, the deep and the Hell Seas. Quite a lot indeed for a god.
> Truly powerful merpeople magicians learn how to derive powers
> from the Deep, and these people are simply terrifying from
> a human POV.
IMC, some Waertagi magicians do this also (I suppose they tap a less deep Deep :) )
> Finally, a word on sorcery : merpeople sorcerors are IMO
> a rarity, simply because the sorcery world isn't part of
> their cosmology. However, the sorcery world did invade the
> waters too, and their are some parts of the Water which are
> sorcerous in nature.
I hope so. Zzabur great spell, for example. Of the time where he moved an entire ocean to kill the Vadeli.
> Weird entities like Golod and other exceptions notwithstanding.
What makes you say so ? I mean in what way is Golod any different from other animal-related entities ?
[No sorcery in the Oceans]
> Philippe asks elsewhere (translated) : "But what about the Vadeli ?
> And the Waertegi ? And the Sendereven ?"
>
> Good questions IMO, so here they are ... ;-)
Well, we know Waertagi to be sorcerers, but able to interact with some sea entities. They could very well be only elementals : salinae (brine elementals [*]), marine animals essences (seagulls, etc), Captaincy Nexus, Mooring Spells,... The fact they adore sea entities can be put under the general HQ blanket of Common Magic.
As for the Vadeli, they are pure sorcerers, AFAIK. I think they have a general magics for exploring, torturing, dominating and incorporating pillaged magics into their own corpus. Eh, they may even have ways to transform spirits or daimones into essence to control them. (anyone willing to tell me more about them is welcome)
Sendereven are a mystery, more akin to the Luatha or other demi-gods. As they revolted/spurned their ancestors, gos and spirits, I suppose they're either outstanding sorcerers or 'mystics' (with big ', as always while dealing with mysticism : Eastern Strange Unmagic) As you can't encouter them outside a HeroQuest, why worry ?
I'd add to the sorcery users : Zzabur (the Closing) and ... Dormal. (and, following, many captains nowadays).
Philippe
[*] salinae as a name for brine elementals has been stolen from China Miéville' 'The Scar'. Quite an interesting description of sea peoples and deep sea horrors.
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End of Glorantha Digest
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