This is from our debate related to my recent concern and conversation with Olli Kantola about Kralori costumes.
(He wrote The tale of Third Immortality Lost, check it in Kalikos site.)
I added Timeline of LurNop to the map page.
See beautiful images of Fantasy China.
http://www.carolineyoung.com/
>
Me:
> >Like about costumes (Efendi suggested to use gaudy costumes of Beijing
> >Classical Opera...), city control, and as I asked, technology and culture
> >(I don't like pigtails and opium....) we like more ancient age China on
> >the contrary of europeans:
>
Olli:
> If I were you, I would not use the gaudy costumes on normal people. These
> are not freaks, these are normal people. Imagine how hard it would be to
> weed grasses in the fields when dressed as a demon from the nether planes.
> =)
Of course, yes.
>In my huble opinion, costume is important though. Government officials
> for example are somewhat empowered by them. To see a mandarin in his
ritual
> garb ready to judge should be an awe inspiring sight to normal Kralori! I
> like Claude Mancetos idea, that the emperor has a special servant whose
> very important job is to make sure that the emperor is dressed properly in
> every occasion.
I like his idea, too.
I suppose Efendi might think that more fantasic source is induced to fantasy world (Glorantha), it removes reality from "Historical Development" and is closed to essential heart of its culture.
But knowledge is might not be known without understanding, understanding in a sense means absorbing the influence of foreign culture into you, if Eurmal cut your tongue into two, or Orlanth learns Auld Wyrmish, you and Orlanth cannot go back to former status. You begin to consider about difference of Renaissance costume and that of Ancient Romans and begin to show disfavor to anachronism.
Efendi is a real scholar of historian, and each of us has own unique
perspective and favorite theme.
http://www.chinaknowledge.de/index.html
http://library.ust.hk/info/exhibit/maps-9706/map-gallery1.html
But you might ignore them as Nick ignores to think about Technology Level of mostali, for Glorantha is fantasy world. I am not so sure as you or Efendi :-).
Efendi taught me good links of Ancient Chinese costumes: http://www.chinapage.com/paint1.html
Below is my personal excerpt of characteristic of each RW dynasties.
Chinese History is in a sense battle of North Nomads and absorbs its influence.
<<*Han Dynasty
A Chinese dynasty (206 B.C.-A.D. 220) noted for unifying and expanding its
national territory and for promoting literature and the arts.
It's classic Age almost all of Unified Chinese was founded. After long
Warring States Period and War between Han and Chu, basic chinese culture
of Confucianism and centralized Imperial Court almost all beginning from
this age. [Pants was used from Warring States Period by cavalry warriors, as
indecent costume of Nomad since that day.]
I have some good images of costume of this age from my Chinese Character (Kanji) Dictionary:
*Tang Dynasty
A Chinese dynasty (618-907) that was known for its wealth and its
encouragement of the arts and literature.
Though it has suffered much of North Nomad influence (and brutal rule) since
the Three Kingdoms age, the Center of the World (ie: China) absorbed it and
made it its own as if they had been there from beginning, nothing was
changed. (It is common practical propaganda of China since that age.) Half
of Mandarian bureaucrats were selected by exams, there was many contacts
with foreign culture like Japan embassies. Noble culture reached its peak
absorbing foreign influence. [But notorious women foot-binding also began
from that age.]
http://www.chinapage.com/painting/hangan02.html http://www.chinapage.com/painting/guhongzhong/guhongzhong.html
*Sung Dynasty
A Chinese dynasty (960-1279). Under its rule China achieved one of its
highest levels of culture and prosperity. Though external strength was weak
and suffered for huge amount of tribute to nomads for civilians strongly
controlled army and generals in the lesson of the downfall of Tang Dynasty,
under its rule, commoner's culture and urban civilization flourished and
reached its peak for wealthy land and economy. Philosophy and Technology
were encouraged. Almost all of bureaucrats were selected by exams.
[Furniture chair was used from that age, Chinese didn't use it before for it
is nomad custom, and they had sat over floor directly.]
*Yuan (Mongolian) Dynasty
A Chinese dynasty (1271-1368) established by the Mongolian ruler Kublai Khan
at Peking (Beijing). It was superseded by the Ming dynasty.
Though they destroyed noble culture of China with their "brutal" nomad rule
and Islamic Influence, Commoner's culture rather thrived for indifference of
rulers to it. "Journey to the West" and many other good but "coarse"
literatures.
http://www.dpm.org.cn/japan/phoweb/Wallpaper/1024x768/60.jpg http://www.dpm.org.cn/japan/phoweb/Wallpaper/1024x768/10.jpg
*Ming Dynasty
A Chinese dynasty (1368-1644) noted for its flourishing foreign trade,
achievements in scholarship, and development of the arts, especially in
porcelain, textiles, and painting. Though the name means "Dynasty of
Brightness" and successful external conquest by sea, it is in fact a
"Dynasty of Darkness", oppressive and half-crazy emperors soaked his throne
with blood, even though they insisted that they recovered Chinese Tradition
after the nomad rule of Yuan Dynasty. Dogmatic Confucianism damaged
commoner's culture.
http://www.chinapage.com/painting/tangyin/tangyin1.html http://www.chinapage.com/painting/tangyin/tangyin3.html http://www.chinapage.com/painting/tangyin/tangyin6.html http://www.chinapage.com/painting/tangyin/tangyin7.html http://www.chinapage.com/painting/wangcm.html
*Qing (Manchurian) Dynasty
A Chinese dynasty (1644-1912) during which increasing Western influence and
trade led to the Opium War (1839-1842) with Britain and the Boxer Rebellion
(1898-1900). The dynasty, China's last, was overthrown by nationalist
revolutionaries. Early Days of this Dynasty, they forced subjects to
barbarian hairpieces [pigtail] hairstyle. [I dislike it (TI).]
[Though as a minority, manchurians supported Confucianism and traditional culture of China sarcastically on the contrary to Ming Dynasty, I dislike their history for they could not defend the Center of the World well from the White Savages and Pirates. (Sorry for calling your ancestor by this deregatory term...but it is common feeling to foreign conquerors and oppressors.)]
http://www.chinapage.com/painting/jiaobingzhen/jiao01.html http://www.chinapage.com/painting/jiaobingzhen/jiao02.html http://www.chinapage.com/painting/puru/fu003.html http://www.dpm.org.cn/japan/phoweb/Wallpaper/1024x768/22.jpghttp://www.dpm.org.cn/japan/phoweb/Wallpaper/1024x768/25.jpg http://www.dpm.org.cn/japan/phoweb/Wallpaper/1024x768/26.jpg
http://www.asianvariety.com/ancestor.html
>>
> Olli:
> > I like Ming dynasty drawings,
>
Me:
> Yeah, Judge Dee wears costume of this age. Van Gulik maybe could not find
> good picture in Tang for source. Efendi suggested it for Kralori.
>
Olli:
> >but I'd rather use Tang dynasty (618-907) as> a model for over-all style.
>
Me:
> I want to use it, too. But I and Efendi cannot find enough source just
now.
> Efendi suggests that contemporary japanese wore similar clothes for they
> much influenced from Tang. Perhaps it is true.
>
Olli:
> > I assume that by pigtails you mean hairpieces. I agree on that one. I
> > believe that they didn't have those on Tang. Is that right?
>
Me:
> It was induced very recently :-( to china by manchurian nomads. As
> foot-binding of women (read Wild Swan), I dislike this custom.
> http://bookstore.mybirdcenter.com/n_0385425473.htm
>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671685465/103-3262428-3500629?v=glance&st=*
> I don't know why ancient Japanese didn't induce common custom of Tang
> Chinese like castration (eunuchs) or woman foot-binding, but I don't like
it
> as my ancestor.
> >
Olli:
<<I'm not fond of it either. I don't think that using this custom in
Glorantha would bring anything that is of use with it. Anyway, it's too
Chinese for me and as I already stressed, I like my Kralorela as Gloranthan
as possible.>>
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End of Glorantha Digest
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