Ur languages and sign language

From: Julian Lord <jlord_at_free.fr>
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:35:01 +0100


(I'll TRY and keep this limited to Gloranthan topicness, despite people's repeated attempts to shift the thread away from there)

Chris :

> So, is it your thought that, during the green age,
> people could use these faculties to understand each
> other directly without the formal structure of a
> language? That is, any old grunt would carry the
> intended meaning? Then, at the end of the green age,
> different peoples becaome less and less mutually
> comprehensible?

How did you guess ?

Except I suppose I'd amend that to say that this is only valid for humans, if at all.

Andrew :

> IMO Julian Lord makes soome excellent points,

Thanx

> but
>
> > ... Linguistics
> > can provide no testable and therefore "scientific" model, because
> > language and meta-language (which is used to discuss language)
> > share many common features, which are impossible to analyse
> > because of their shared inherently linguistic nature.
>
> Sorry, that's a fallacy. It's quite possible to have a language be its
> own meta-language and do valid reasoning in it.

This is incompatible with the definition of what a meta-language is, I'm afraid. "Language discussing language". It implies an objectivation of the target language(s), where it or they are deprived of the ability to actually communicate, and are instead studied for their physical qualities. the core tools used remain linguistic though, which engenders a certain number of unavoidable paradoxes. However :

> That's precisely how you get=
> to Godel's Theorem.

(A theorem I myself fail to accept.
Meaning is a transcendental experience using language. That's not what my however is about though) :

Mostali is doubtless its own meta-laguage ... :-)

Donald :

> >Ob-Glorantha, it's simply a fact that humans share certain
> >common features that are used to produce meaning, and that
> >these features could be linguistically described as an ur-language.
>
> Given that several languages in Glorantha were developed for
> non-humans it follows that there isn't a single ur-language.

That's why I've restricted my post to humans. :-)

--
__________________________________
"Hmmm, I've heard of other powers.
Can you tell me about ...

... Real Life ?"




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