Paul May:
Pretty well every metalworker has a heat metal
spell/feat/&c in some form of another.
Not such a huge problem, then, as I thought.
> And many forests disappeared into ships, as well as
forges.
Probably not relevant to Sartar, and also not relevant to smelting, but certainly another factor in RW deforestation. The Ottawa River valley where I live was settled for exactly that reason. Pine and oak for the Royal Navy, and it's all gone now!
> > Now, it turns out that the real reason that
forests quickly needed stewards to protect them in the
Middle
Ages was the need for wood in iron smelting.
Joerg:
Most of this was used for refining raw metal from the
ore. Both real world copper and tin require less
reductive agents, and the raw metal is a lot easier to
work because you can melt it out.
> IMO Gloranthan "bronze" has that lower melting point
- which makes the bronze equipment more susceptible
for fire attacks. I do think that it can be tempered
and hardened only through the same hammering you need
for iron implements, and that master smiths produce
damascened bronze from layers of softer and harder
alloy.
> IMG it can be cast for poor quality (real world)
bronze implements, or tempered and hammered for a
better quality. ... Melting takes a lot less fuel
than refining.
Ahh, I knew a pro could give the details! :-)
How much you can do with Gloranthan 'bronze' has always been one of those tricky points
> Dragon Pass isn't really in danger of deforestation
for refining ores, though - most of the bronze is
mined as nuggets from shattered bones.
Quick thought here. Do (can) any of the smiths claim that their tools or weapons are made from the bones of gods who were originally crafters or warriors, and are therefore specially magically suited for a particular use? How would you tell? Trial and error? Divination? HQ knowledge?
Also, Ian recalled vaguely a claim that the bones of some of the warriors were iron, and that's why they make such good weapons, but I thought that iron was a dwarven invention.
> Note that charcoal probably will be made from
collected breakoffs rather than felled trees. Lumber
gathering rights are ok for stickpickers, but
tree-felling? Better to harvest what the Storms offer.
Plus charcoal from coppicing (see below). For normal small-scale use, yes. For the kind of industrial production that happened even in the early Middle Ages, obviously not good enough. And that's what I'm not sure about, namely how much smithing is happening, and how much of that is done with magical assistance to spare the woodstock, and perhaps give very fine control to the product.
Alison:
Until this sawtooth ensemble was developed, ...
splitting and then adzing the surface [was] the best
way to make a plank.
Joerg:
Sort of - already some 14th century ships had sawed
planks. Probably because cheaper wood could be used
that way (not all trees split as conveniently as
oaks).
There's also less wastage of wood, which becomes a more important factor as the price of wood rises.
Joerg:
Question: does Ernalda provide high temperature
pottery suitable for melting bronze ... in? Or do
Gloranthan melters use clay forms which are heated in
a kiln, and for the casting the funnel tip is hammered
off after the form has been placed over the models?
In other words, can you make a proper crucible? Good question, and I hit the Rubber Bible and other RW sources for some of this. I checked the Hoovers' translation of 'De Re Metallica', (DRM was published in 1556 - superb source for mining tech), and it mentions clay ('earthen') crucibles only briefly, but the illo definitely shows a pouring spout. It then goes into immense detail on cupels (basically a small crucible) made of or containing a bed of highly-processed ashes (e.g. beech or deerhorn) and formed in brass vessels. These were used for refining of silver and gold, using a lead flux to wick away oxides. They were used in a cupellation furnace, needing a bellows.
Only certain coarser clays can be used for holding molten iron. Over 1200C, you get vitrified clay (stoneware), which is watertight. Normal red brick clay earthenware melts at 1150C, so it's not suitable for containing iron (m.p. 1535C) for long periods, but should be OK for silver, gold, lead, aluminum (water-metal?), copper and bronze, in other words most of the other rune metals of Glorantha.
However, in Theophilus' 'On Divers Arts' (written c1120), there is a footnote that states that even though words meaning liquefaction of iron are used in various sources, it is almost certain that the ore was not melted, but reduced at under the melting point in a smallish furnace to make a spongy bloom, and then hammered at white heat to compact the metal and make it fit for use. How hot that is, they don't say! Considering that charcoal was usually used, probably pretty hot. I don't think that you have to use stoneware if your earthenware is thick enough to last through the smelting process.
Gloranthan techniques undoubtedly include some magic, so perhaps RW facts don't always apply. I'd assume some co-operation between Ernalda (source of clays) and Gustbran, the forgefire, for both firing of vessels and metalworking. If you've got charcoal anyway, I would think that you can make stoneware. First known stoneware was Shang Dynasty in China, c1500BC. Europe - way behind! Germany started making stoneware in the 13thC. Glorantha? Up to the GM, unless it's already in a canonical source.
Dr Moose:
An important fact to remember is that woodland is a
renewable resource,
No arguments there!
> and that careful management [of] wood stocks by
coppicing and pollarding should be more than adequate
for Gloranthan needs.
Pollarding is fine for controlling tree height (e.g. in orchards), and coppicing will give you the straight slender wood you need for tool handles, spear shafts, basket, arrows, fencing, wattle-and-daub, thatching, and can use for charcoalmaking, etc. It doesn't replace the need for solid trunks for framing buildings, ships, or probably for longer-lasting firewood.
> I have always presumed that they are known among the
Heortlings.
And in my game, too.
Peter Metcalfe:
Given that a major elf bandit of the inhuman
occupation was one Saw-tooth Korvan (Cults Compendium
p199), the prospect that Heortlings don't know what
saws are strikes me as ludicrous.
No arguments that they know what a saw is, just that for serious tree-felling the saws they have aren't the best tool. For fine work like fretwork, I have no doubt that a coping saw is used.
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