>Kevin McDonald:
>
>
>>Altinela is not in the middle of Loskalm, but regardless, I don't
>>believe that the Carmanians are Veth Ethdisi. (or vice versa. Just
>>to be clear.)
>>
>>
>No, but I was refuting the lesser implication that because an empire
>founder comes from such a place must mean that place is in the heart
>of the founder's empire (or kingdom) and will always be close.
>
>
I don't disagree with this, at least in principle. I do believe that the
Carmanian relationship with Castle Blue *is* close, though, for all the
reasons previously stated. I accept the fact that you don't find those
reasons to be compelling. To each his own.
>There are quite a number of scenarios in which the Carmanians could
>"respect" the holding of Castle Blue and be on less than cordial
>terms. Sartar respected the holdings of the Telmori yet in the
>latter years of the Kingdom, most Sartarites feared the Telmori.
>
>
Certainly! There is enough not said about Carmania to fill a hundred
libraries (and more). I therefore must draw conclusions from what little
there is, based at least partially on my own personal preferences. That
said, I don't think the Sartar-Telmori relationship is very much like
that of Carmania and Castle Blue. Sartar's mother was not a Telmori
great spirit, the telmori are not godlike immortals, Sartar didn't found
a religion (as far as I know) etc.
>>Here is where I say: "Fortunate Succession is, in this instance,
>>wrong."Or put more mildly, it isn't particularly correct.
>>
>>
>That's quite a reaching statement. Southeast of the Lake, beyond
>Meglardinth, are the Arirae Hills and west of them is Naveria, lands
>which have been ruled by Dara Happa in the past. Hence the
>statement is correct.
>
>
I intended the statement to be reaching. :) On the other hand you seem
to be saying that although Dara Happa is two regions away from Lake
Oroinin, the lake can generally be said to lie on their border because
Dara Happa has occasionally ruled those lands in the past. Heck, Dara
Happa once ruled all of the Oronin Valley so why not just cut to the
chase and say all of Carmania is within Dara Happan lands?! So Brinnus
is ruled by Castle Blue? I think not. If the Lake Oronin cities were
ruled by Castle Blue, then ILH-1 would have made some mention of this.
It does not. I remain unconvinced.
>>I never said the Shah claimed Lake Oronin itself as part of his
>>lands, although the Shahs definitely did claim the shoreline.
>>
>>
>Nope. I've already quoted the Redline history to show that the
>shores were part of the holdings of Castle Blue.
>
>
And I have already said that I profoundly disagree with your
interpretation of Redline. Our dispute seems to hinge on the
interpretation of Redline's statement: "Castle Blue considered those
people among their own followers, and had always defended them from
external aggression." I do not believe this implies rule by Castle Blue,
but instead a paternal/maternal attitude. Further, ILH-1 says of Brinnus
"Here it was that Syranthir wed Lady Carmain of the Lake". In his Oronin
Valley article (see Etyries.com) Nick Brooke wrote that Charmain is the
Carmanian Spirit of Sovereignty, as well as mother of the Prophet. My
interpretation of these statements is that the descendants of Syranthir
and Charmain, the Carmanian Shahs, inherited the authority to rule the
shores of Lake Orinin and by extension the entire Oronin Valley. But not
Lake Oronin itself. That would be taking it too far, IMHO.
>>Here again I have to say that the old sources that mention Jhor as
>>theorigional settling place of the Carmanians are wrong, or at best
>>misleading.
>>
>>
>Nick's timeline?
>
> Interregnum - no Shah. Carmanians settle in Jhor. Civil
> rebellions in Pelanda against the Spolites, who are led
> by Glautor.
> http://www.etyries.com/carmania/timeline.htm
>
>I shun your map-reasoning as erroneous as it presumes that the
>Spolites were an organized state after the defeat
>of Aegrastus and treats the subsequent expanse of Carmanian
>territory in terms of army marches and
>campaigns.
>
>
Huh? I don't think this follows at all. And I like my map-reasoning just
fine - shun it as much as you like. And no, I don't interpret that map
as a series of army marches and campaigns, but rather phases in the
expansion of Carmanian territory. If it really makes a difference.
As for Nick's timeline, the Jhor reference was probably taken from the old RQ III Genertela Book, which has lost much of its correctness when it comes to Carmania. I will leave that to Nick to defend, though - if he cares to.
>>>If [the Veth Ethdisi were Carmanian Allies], they would have
>>>fought at the Four Arrows of Light.
>>>
>>>
>>Lack of evidence isn't evidence of lack. If they weren't there,
>>though, it might be because they are confined to Lake Oronin for
>>some reason.
>>
>>
>It's strange then that after Four Arrows, there's about eight years
>till the start of Castle Blue during which the Lunars become so
>numerous in Meglardinth that the Veth Ethdisi have to attack the
>place. A much more likely guess is that the Veth Ethdisi didn't
>care who ruled outside their territory but their actions were driven
>by insults to their kin.
>
>
Or that the Lunar victory at Four Arrows of Light was so resounding that
the Veth Ethdisi were hesitant to attack immediately. Or that it took
some time for the Lunars in Meglardirth to become numerous enough to
warrant action. Besides, I am not saying that kinship wasn't involved at
all. Kinship was a major part of it, and eventually became the pretext
for war. What I am saying is that the Darbeest affair wasn't all there
was to it. Redline says "Castle Blue considered those people among their
own followers, and had always defended them from external aggression."
The Lunar intrusion into the area could easily be seen as "external
aggression", particularly if, as I do, you see the people living on the
shore of Lake Oronin as Carmanians. But you do not, so agreement on this
issue is probably not possible.
>>The Bisosae have their own relationship with the people of the lake
>>that predates the arrival of Carmanos.
>>
>>
>So do the Pelandans.
>
Do they really? The Blues destroyed Mt. Turos and took over the valley.
The Pelandans around Lake Oronin only found freedom from the Blues
through the actions of the Bisosae. I suppose Daxdarius might have come
to some kind of arrangement with the Blues, but I don't remember reading
anything about it in Entekosiad. I am not completely certain about the
sequence of events, there.
>So why would the Veth Ethdisi be concerned about Pelandan revivalism
>(as you originally proposed)?
>
>
Because, as I originally proposed, it was a *Lunar influenced* Pelandan
revival.
Since you don't believe that the number of Valare's followers in Meglardirth (however many) were sufficient to identify it as a 'Lunar' city, thus becoming the Veth Ethdisi's object of vengeance, then how about this idea: When the Red Goddess arrived to rebuke Valare, She was followed by a virtual (or perhaps literal) army of attendants, worshipers, missionaries, protectors, etc. Enough of these people remained behind in Meglardirth to make it a Lunar city in the eyes of the Veth Ethdisi. Better?
>>I don't need to prove ethnic identity for my view to work, IMHO.
>>
>>
>You do need to show that it is the most likely interpretation for
>your explanation of the circumstances to be generally
>accepted. If the Sons of Darbeest were Carmanians, then surely they
>would have fought at Four Arrows?
>
>
Generally accepted? Wow. I am just expressing my point of view and
enjoying a discussion about my favorite corner of Glorantha. My
expectations don't go much farther than that, really.
Anyway, who can say with certainty that the Sons of Darbeest didn't fight at Castle Blue? I think they probably did, but there isn't proof one way or the other.
~Kevin McDonald
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