Castle Blue

From: Peter Metcalfe <metcalph_at_quicksilver.net.nz>
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:40:12 +1200


Kevin McDonald:

>Me>Siglat came from Altinela yet in becoming King of Loskalm, he did
> >not make the Loskalmi Altinae.

>Altinela is not in the middle of Loskalm, but regardless, I don't
>believe that the Carmanians are Veth Ethdisi. (or vice versa. Just to be
>clear.)

No, but I was refuting the lesser implication that because an empire founder comes from such a place must mean that place is in the heart of the founder's empire (or kingdom) and will always be close.

> > Even the Carmanians had respected the holding
> > of Castle Blue.

>Which only supports, IMHO, the proposition that the Veth Ethdisi and the
>Carmanians were on good terms.

There are quite a number of scenarios in which the Carmanians could "respect" the holding of Castle Blue and be on less than cordial terms. Sartar respected the holdings of the Telmori yet in the latter years of the Kingdom, most Sartarites feared the Telmori.

> > The Lake was at the edge of Carmanian and Dara Happan lands.

>Here is where I say: "Fortunate Succession is, in this instance, wrong."
>Or put more mildly, it isn't particularly correct.

That's quite a reaching statement. Southeast of the Lake, beyond Meglardinth, are the Arirae Hills and west of them is Naveria, lands which have been ruled by Dara Happa in the past. Hence the statement is correct.

> >Even though the Shah of Carmania might have claimed Lake Oronin
> >as part of his lands, it seems that the locals respected
> >the Castle more and most were not Carmanians.

>I never said the Shah claimed Lake Oronin itself as part of his lands,
>although the Shahs definitely did claim the shoreline.

Nope. I've already quoted the Redline history to show that the shores were part of the holdings of Castle Blue.

>The locals were
>most definitely Carmnians (minus the serfs and maybe Bisosae special
>cases), for all the reasons I have already said.

I disagree. Your reasons consist of a map that places Lake Oronin within Old Carmania. Yet I have already pointed out that two sources whcih make it clear that the Lake was a special place.

> >Originally the proto-Carmanians settled in Jhor so I would expect
> >their oldest capital to have been Kitor.

>Here again I have to say that the old sources that mention Jhor as the
>origional settling place of the Carmanians are wrong, or at best
>misleading.

Nick's timeline?

          Interregnum - no Shah. Carmanians settle in Jhor. Civil
          rebellions in Pelanda against the Spolites, who are led
          by Glautor.
          http://www.etyries.com/carmania/timeline.htm

I shun your map-reasoning as erroneous as it presumes that the Spolites were an organized state after the defeat of Aegrastus and treats the subsequent expanse of Carmanian territory in terms of army marches and campaigns.

> >If [the Veth Ethdisi were Carmanian Allies], they would have fought at
> >the Four Arrows of Light.

>Lack of evidence isn't evidence of lack. If they weren't there, though,
>it might be because they are confined to Lake Oronin for some reason.

It's strange then that after Four Arrows, there's about eight years till the start of Castle Blue during which the Lunars become so numerous in Meglardinth that the Veth Ethdisi have to attack the place. A much more likely guess is that the Veth Ethdisi didn't care who ruled outside their territory but their actions were driven by insults to their kin.

> >The Bull Shahs? Their ancestor Purush/Shahtavar was merely
> >a son of an Esus priestess (FS p99) in Vanstal (Ent. p91).

>They eventually married into the legitimate line.

What makes you think the Veth Ethdisi care about who is legitimate Shah when the cause of the battle was about _immediate_ kinship - the dishonor done to the father of some Veth Ethdisi. If they were so concerned about the question, then why didn't they do anything when the original usurpation took place?

> >Even if he was remotely related to the lineage of Carmanos, the blood
> >relationship has been well and truly diluted by the seventeen Shahs
> >that ruled since that time.

>That time span might not seem all that long to the folk of Castle Blue...

Again you have conflated legitimacy (which is a Carmanian concept) and kinship (which was stated to be the origin of the battle). The Sons of Darbeest cared about what happened to their dad. They did not care that the Carmanians got blatticated at the Battle of the Four Arrows of Light.

> >And blood relationship alone is not sufficient grounds for alliance
> >as the (RW) Great War shows.

>Oh, I doubt the relationship ends with just Carmanos.

I never said it didn't. What I did point out was even if they had a good blood tie, and that's a big if, that doesn't make the relations very close and I used the Great War (in which the King of Great Britian, the Emperor of Germany and the Tsar of Russia were all cousins) as an example.

> >And what did the Veth Ethdisi do when the Bull Shahs took
> >over? Nothing as far as can be seen.

>The Bisosae have their own relationship with the people of the
>lake that predates the arrival of Carmanos.

So do the Pelandans. So why would the Veth Ethdisi be concerned about Pelandan revivalism (as you originally proposed)?

> >I don't think that follows. All you have demonstrated is kinship,
> >not ethnic identity.

>I don't need to prove ethnic identity for my view to work, IMHO.

You do need to show that it is the most likely interpretation for your explanation of the circumstances to be generally accepted. If the Sons of Darbeest were Carmanians, then surely they would have fought at Four Arrows?

--Peter Metcalfe


Powered by hypermail