(unknown charset) Re: Deities of Death

From: (nil)
Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 19:04:06 -0400


On 8 Apr 2005 at 22:00, That Greg Stafford Guy wrote:

> Gloranthaphiles,
>
> Jumping into what is obviously an on-going discussion, I note that
> I do not know what a "version of Humakt" means.

Since I wrote that and indeed started this rambling discussion, let me expla= in.
(No, there is too much, let me sum up.)

I was wondering how come Humakt was in the=20 Orlanthi south and Carmanian NorthWest
and whether or not he "skipped" Dara=20
Happa/Peloria. This was explained to me (I had my geography a bit messed up.) I then asked about=20 whther or not Humakt is god of
death to the Dara Happans. Peter said yes, but=20 formally called Terminatus. This touched off a long argument about the evidence to support=20 that. The rest of us mostly discussed
whether there was a god of Death like the Grim Reaper, transcendent and cros= s-
otherworld, and if that was Humakt. (I think we=20 ended up with mostly no to the latter, I don't think the former has been answered. If=20 music and thievery have other-world
spanning religions, why not Death?)

But since we don't know about the Dara Happan god(s) of Death, we were speculating whether or not it had been conflated with Humakt, as the whole Orlanth/the Rebel thing happened.

> If they view it at all. The actual answer to this really depends on who i=
s
> talking. Most Dara Happans don't know squat about Humakt or the Orlanthi
> except as "those bad guys down south."
> Philosophers speaking abstractly will have several different perspectives=
,
> based on heir opinion of Gloranthan "reality."
> Comparative mythology is not acceptable to many of the conservative Dara
> Happans, who view everything of the Orlanthi Way as being just wrong.
> Etc.

So Humakt wouldn't even enter their myths or be viewed as relevant.

> >>I
> >>suspect in the Solar version, Yelm (after being killed), has to collect
> >>and control death for the safety of the world. So he makes someone do i=
t.
> >>So Death in Dara Happa is a loyal and impartial servent of Yelm, charge=
d
> >>with this duty. Assuming they know of Humakt at all, it is a case of t=
he
> > opposite of Elmal. A storm tribe diety who defects to the "proper" sid=
e
> >>and takes responsibility for his actions. He is now neutral and imparti=
al
> >>death, loyal warrior in the Emporer's court.
>
> The Terminator is of course the deliverer of Death.
> The vile being that separated the souls of Murharzarm and sent the light
> part scuttling out of the world.
> And let us not forget the bat, released by his traitorous daughter
> Verithurusa, who blinded him and made him susceptible to such separation
> of souls.

So in the Dara Happan version, Death is always=20 evil, rather than being controlled by a
neutral, but loyal god as we see in the Orlanthi version?

> Kazkurtum is more like a chaos god, not just death.

Good to know.

> Actually the lords of the dead include Shargash Bijiif, Yelm Bijiif,
> Lodril Bijiif and some other Bijiifs.

I'm going to go on a wild guess here and assume=20 that Bijiif means something like
"shadow"? It's the version of these gods after=20 they've been struck down and ruling in the underworld? (So my much earlier idea that Yelm is=20 also lord of the dead, having taken
over ruling the Underworld when he went down there?)

> > The Lunar pantheon will have their own death god(s) and spirits.
>

[fun Lunar gods of death]

> Huvaran (Rinliddi): =ECBat Goddess.=EE
>
> And of course,
> Blaskarth the world-killing Bat, of which the Crimson Bat is but a mere
> shadow...

Ahhh, so the Crimson Bat is NOT a version of the Rinliddi Goddess of Death?

> Issaries guides the dead of the Storm Pantheon, yes. Including those
> spirits of Kolat. But he does not guide the souls/spirits/essences of
> other pantheons.

Never meant to imply that he did.

> If you look to Earth pantheons you will generally find that the psychopom=
p
> is different from the ruler of the Dead. Hermes and Pluto for instance.

> Heck, if you want to go there you have Orlanth, who entertains his dead
> warriors in his hall. And in general, the initiates of dead humans go to
> live with their deity whomever it was.

Yeah, I don't think the "who gets you in the=20 afterlife" is a good version of who is a God of the Dead in Orlanthi mythology.

> Absolutely correct. Correspondences exist in varying degrees of
> similarity. Archetypes (leadership, conflict, love, etc.) shine through
> but the archetypes are not worshipped, the "faces" are, the deities
> themselves.

Which is why we were wondering who the Empire's Death Gods were. Mind you, i= n
some cases (as I understand it), there have been=20 conflations (Yelm/Evil Emperor).
Given that Humakt exists on both sides of the=20 empire (And happens to be around a lot of mythologies, it seems) we wondered whether or not=20 Humakt was one of those cases.

LC


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