>>Lake Oronin was in the heart of Old Carmania,
>>
>>
>I doubt it. The above statement comes from what is said in the
>Fortunate Succession.
>
Look at the history of the founding of Carmania, and at all the maps in
Fortunate Succession (particularly pg 35, 37 and 49). Carmanos, Son of
the Lake, came ashore in Brinnus, and during his lifetime liberated the
southern Oronin Valley.
>Even if you could show that the Carmanians controlled the southern
>side of Lake Oronin, that does not make it (or more precisely Castle
>Blue) either part of or in the heart of Old Carmania.
>
>
According to the maps, Carmaina controlled the entire area around Lake
Oronin. Although it is in the extreme south of the valley, it is roughly
in the center of it from east to west. The Carmanians traditionally
controlled the Oronin valley from the Jernalf Hills to the Brass Mountains.
The Carmanians do not control or possess Castle Blue, but it has a powerful mythic tie to the people of the southern Oronin Valley - the oldest and most sacred part of Carmania. The founder of the line of Carmanian Shahs is related by blood to an immortal of Lake Oronin - the goddess Charmain, who is the source of the Carmanian Shah's divine right to rule. Based on this, and what is said in Fortunate Succession (pg 52) and the Red Line History (Castle Blue) I believe that the relationship between Carmania and Castle Blue was very close.
>Secondly I would have thought the heart of Old Carmania to be much
>further to the north around the city of Shardash/Burntwall.
>
>
Shardash was the capital of Carmania under the Bull Shahs, but it was
not always so. It isn't said anywhere that I know of when the move of
the capitol occurred. Perhaps it was done under an early Shah as a way
to keep the wicked Spolites under control. Perhaps it was done by a Dark
Shah with Spolite sympathies. The northern Oronin Valley was not part of
Old Carmania, though (see FS pg 49), and IMHO took some time to be fully
integrated into the Kingdom.
I actually think there is an interesting Dark/Light polarity in the placement of Shardash. The source of Light is in the south, where Carmanos ruled. The source of Darkness is in the north where the Spolites ruled. Thus the religious capitol of Carmania was in the extreme south and the secular capitol came to be in the extreme north. I don't know if this is significant at all, but it sounds intriguing to me.
>>>and that some of the Veth Ethdisi are said to be related to the
>>>conquered Carmanians, I think it's reaching quite a bit to label
>>>the dead people or their summoners Carmanians.
>>>
>>>
Perhaps you are right, but not certainly. The dead people could easily
have been dead Carmanians. We don't really know. I do feel that the
evidence is very strong that the Veth Ethdisi are Carmanian allies, though.
>>Why?
>>
>>
>Because the sources do not describe them as Carmanians. The Redline
>History (Zero Wane) says:
>
> "Even the Carmanians had respected the holding of Castle Blue".
>
>All you have at best is the statement that a Carmanian married a
>princess of Castle Blue and their sons were upset at the Carmanian's
>death at the battle. But nobody describes the Carmanians as being
>involved in the decision - instead the Veth Ethdesi are blamed.
>
>
"All you have at best" seems to understate things a bit. The Shah's
themselves are blood related to the folk of Castle Blue, and apparently
(Harash Darbeest) other Carmanians were as well. As for the decision...
"With their family connections the Sons of Darbeest soon involved all of
the magical isle's inhabitants, as well as the remaining humans from the
lake's shores." I believe that the Sons of Darbeest were Carmanians, not
Veth Ethdisi. The Shah himself isn't mentioned here, but it doesn't take
much thought to come up with good reasons for this. There may well have
been no Shah at the time. The Shah may have been opposed to resuming the
war at that time. He may have actually been involved, but just wasn't
mentioned. It really isn't all that important.
>>My opinion is that the people of Meglardirth had fallen for Valare
>>Addi's Lunar influenced Pelandan revival.
>>
>>
>I don't think the Chronology bears you out. Valare is manumitted in
>1232 (corrected from 1238) in Karasal
>and meets the Goddess in Yuthuppa eight years later(1240). Valare
>then goes to Pelanda and has several
>hundred followers before the confrontation with the Goddess in 1243
>which is described as putting a halt
>to her heresy. She then leaves Pelanda for Yuthuppa for a year and
>from there to First Blessed where she is
>when the Goddess becomes the Red Moon.
>
>As it is, her cult is simply not that big enough to justify the
>attack on Meglardinth and the nub of the disagreement
>was over a death in the family, not of Pelandan revival(which the
>Castle Blues would have no problem with).
>
>
While your chronology is correct, I think it gives plenty of time for
things to progress as I propose. The times were hard and uncertain.
People were afraid and their beliefs were being challenged by defeat
after horrible defeat. Valare proposed a way to end the madness by
embracing the Goddess. The Goddess herself showed up in Pelanda to
rebuke Valare. I think that alone (a visit by the Red Goddess, not the
rebuking itself) would be sufficient to give the Lunar cause a boost.
Finally, it says in FS (pg 52) That the Veth Ethdisi "quarreled with the
Lunar residents living upon the lake,..." I don't think it is much of a
stretch to believe that these Lunar residents were primarily in
Meglardirth. Otherwise why attack there?
>>Even so, it is known that Humakti do allow the dead to return under
>>the proper circumstances (resurrection).
>>
>>
>Humakti cannot be resurrected. What you are thinking of is a
>resurrectee that _joins_ Humakt because of the
>relife sickness.
>
>
That, and the fact that Humakti don't kill resurrected people on sight
as if they were undead. They make a distinction.
>>Humakt himself brought the Einherjar (dead warriors) to fight at
>>Four Arrows of Light.
>>
>>
>He didn't. The reference states that Humakt had no einherjar at
>Four Arrows when he fought Yanafal.
>
>
Oops! You got me there, although it does imply that Hum'akt has
einherjar - they just weren't at the battle. Or something... er...
maybe... ;)
~Kevin McDonald
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