> >>Lake Oronin was in the heart of Old Carmania,
>Me>I doubt it. [...].
>Look at the history of the founding of Carmania, and at all the maps
>in Fortunate Succession (particularly pg 35, 37 and 49).
Maps aren't the complete story. Just because something is within a wider territory does not mean that it is part of it. A RW case is the Vatican. A gloranthan case is the Dragon's Eye.
>Carmanos, Son of the Lake, came ashore in Brinnus, and
>during his lifetime liberated the southern Oronin Valley.
Siglat came from Altinela yet in becoming King of Loskalm, he did not make the Loskalmi Altinae. Moonson became Emperor of Dara Happa but in doing so, the Dara Happans did not become Lunars. Harrek the Berserk became the Champion of the Yggites but the Yggites did not become Rathori. Just because Carmanos came from the Lake does not make the Lake inhabitants Carmanians.
>According to the maps, Carmaina controlled the entire area
>around Lake Oronin.
Except as the RedLine History states:
The inhabitants of this castle were typical of the type, and
were very close to the inhabitants along the shores of the
lake. Castle Blue considered those people among their own
followers, and had always defended them from external
aggression. Even the Carmanians had respected the holding
of Castle Blue.
And the Fortunate Succession:
The Lake was at the edge of Carmanian and Dara Happan
lands.
Even though the Shah of Carmania might have claimed Lake Oronin as part of his lands, it seems that the locals respected the Castle more and most were not Carmanians.
>Based on this, and what is said in Fortunate Succession
>(pg 52) and the Red Line History (Castle Blue) I believe that
>the relationship between Carmania and Castle Blue was
>very close.
Even if they were very close, this does not make the inhabitants of Castle Blue Carmanians.
> >Secondly I would have thought the heart of Old Carmania
> >to be much further to the north around the city of
> >Shardash/Burntwall.
>Shardash was the capital of Carmania under the Bull Shahs,
>but it was not always so. It isn't said anywhere that I know
>of when the move of the capitol occurred.
Originally the proto-Carmanians settled in Jhor so I would expect their oldest capital to have been Kitor.
>I do feel that the evidence is very strong that the Veth Ethdisi are
>Carmanian allies, though.
If so, they would have fought at the Four Arrows of Light. That they didn't, that they initially tolerated Lunars to enter their lands and that their original gripe was about the death of their kinsmen indicates that the Veth Ethdisi were lukewarm allies at best.
> >All you have at best is the statement that a Carmanian married a
> >princess of Castle Blue and their sons were upset at the Carmanian's
> >death at the battle. But nobody describes the Carmanians as being
> >involved in the decision - instead the Veth Ethdesi are blamed.
>"All you have at best" seems to understate things a bit. The Shah's
>themselves are blood related to the folk of Castle Blue,
The Bull Shahs? Their ancestor Purush/Shahtavar was merely a son of an Esus priestess (FS p99) in Vanstal (Ent. p91). Even if he was remotely related to the lineage of Carmanos, the blood relationship has been well and truly diluted by the seventeen Shahs that ruled since that time. And blood relationship alone is not sufficient grounds for alliance as the (RW) Great War shows.
And what did the Veth Ethdisi do when the Bull Shahs took over? Nothing as far as can be seen.
>and apparently (Harash Darbeest) other Carmanians were as well.
It might be that the Veth Ethdisi were not so much angry about their kinsmen being killed but the refusal or inability of the Lunars to return the corpse.
>As for the decision... "With their family connections the Sons of
>Darbeest soon involved all of the magical isle's inhabitants, as
>well as the remaining humans from the lake's shores." I believe
>that the Sons of Darbeest were Carmanians, not Veth Ethdisi.
I don't think that follows. All you have demonstrated is kinship, not ethnic identity.
>There may well have been no Shah at the time.
There were several claimants after the Battle of the Four Arrows of Light - Carmanian resistance only ceased at the conclusion of the Blood Kings War at the start of the Second Wane.
> >I don't think the Chronology bears you out. [...] As it is, her
> >cult is simply not that big enough to justify the attack on
> >Meglardinth and the nub of the disagreement was over a
> >death in the family, not of Pelandan revival(which the Castle
> >Blues would have no problem with).
>While your chronology is correct, I think it gives plenty of time
>for things to progress as I propose.
I fail to see how a cult of several hundreds that was stopped by the Goddess after the defeat of its founder four years before could have become powerful enough in Meglardinth and why the Veth Ethdisi would attack the heretics and not the Lunars.
>The times were hard and uncertain. People were afraid and
>their beliefs were being challenged by defeat after horrible defeat.
That's not the case for the Lunars or the Carmanians as both sides had victories during the seven year period to the battle of the Four Arrows of Light.
>Valare proposed a way to end the madness by embracing the
>Goddess. The Goddess herself showed up in Pelanda to rebuke
>Valare.
and to end her heresy.
>I think that alone (a visit by the Red Goddess, not the rebuking
>itself) would be sufficient to give the Lunar cause a boost.
A visit by the Goddess to a cult of several hundreds with the intention to disband it means that the heresy was not significant at the battle for Castle Blue. Of the cultists, some would have joined Valare while others would have joined the orthodox Lunar cause. In which case, Valare's cult was not significant enough to have a major presence in Meglardinth necessitating the dispatch of an army of the dead.
Even if you replaced Valare's heresy with Pelandan revival (which did not begin with Valare alone as there were far more than several hundred Lunars in Pelanda), you still have the problem that the Veth Ethdisi do not have a problem with Pelandans.
>Finally, it says in FS (pg 52) That the Veth Ethdisi "quarreled
>with the Lunar residents living upon the lake,..." I don't think it
>is much of a stretch to believe that these Lunar residents were
>primarily in Meglardirth. Otherwise why attack there?
Because Harash Darbeest may have lived in Meglardinth when he was alive and his sons may have wanted to cleanse that city of their father's murderers?
>That, and the fact that Humakti don't kill resurrected people on sight as
>if they were undead. They make a distinction.
Most do, some do not - the Lead Cross heroquest and the humakti ability to prevent resurrection indicate that the Humakti are not united on this matter. But the issue isn't an army of resurrected people, the issue is whether Humakti tolerate an army of dead people.
--Peter Metcalfe
End of Glorantha Digest, Vol 11, Issue 114
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