Bell Digest v930214

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 93 02:41:26 +0100
From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Digest Subscriptions)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Subject: The Sunday RuneQuest Daily, 14 Feb 1993

This is an semi-automated digest, sent out once per day (if any
messages are pending).  Replies will be included in the next issue
automatically.

Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest.  If you 
want to submit articles to the Digest only,  contact the editor at
RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM.

--
Send Submissions to: 		    
Enquiries to:		  
The RuneQuest Daily is a spin-off of the RuneQuest Digest and deals
with the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of
Glorantha.  			 Maintainer: Henk.Langeveld@Sun.COM

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From: clay@cool.vortech.com (Clay Luther)
Subject: Re: Greg is Wrong
Message-ID: <199302121803.AA01899@cool.vortech.com>
Date: 12 Feb 93 06:00:18 GMT

>A bit unfair. As I understand Stafford has been trying to avoid giving a
>one-true-path Glorantha. I haven't read KoS but I gather it is meant to be
>contradictory and inconsistent. I think they are all possible paths that
>players may shape or take part in.

[Clay does a double-take.]

Unfair? *Unfair*?

Between you and a previous poster, I see I didn't quite make my
point...or more to the point, some people ;) missed the forest because
of the trees.

The subject "Everything Stafford Says Is Wrong" is absolutely true,
and you yourself already accept that when you say

> As I understand Stafford has been trying to avoid giving a one-true-path 
> Glorantha.

EXACTLY!

The whole point of that post was a response to a previous poster
(either here or on r.g.f.m) that Glorantha was boring because
everything was set in stone by Stafford.

Admittedly, at first glance, this looks to be true, and I was relating
my own path of illumination from that very same feeling to the
realization that Stafford had, indeed, done the exact *opposite*, as
proven by KoS.

Stafford has been wrong, and has always been wrong, about everything
he has ever told anyone, save perhaps Sandy Peterson, about what
really happens in Gloranthan myth.  But, that's *fine*.  That's the
Way It Should Be(tm).  What do we *care* about what *really* happened?
Stafford probably doesn't *really* know, either.  He just has "ideas."

[GOD LEARNER STUFF FOLLOWS - AVERT YOUR EYES OR SUFFER ETERNAL PAIN]

Take Orlanth.  Was Orlanth always a God?  No, I don't think so. The
Orlanthi myth even hints that he wasn't ("When Orlanth was just a
Godling, and had no inkling of his powers." paraphrased, KoS, Orlanthi
Mythology) Just some person who eventually apotheosized.  Just like
all the rest of the gods.

Was there really a GodTime?  No, probably not.  Did Orlanth really
kill the Yelm?  Probably not...though perhaps for several years
Glorantha fell into near-synchronous orbit with another planet(oid)
and the sun was eclipsed.  It couldn't last too long, though, becase
*everything* would die.  Maybe a decade.

But what about the Block?  The Spike had to explode to land on the
Devil, right?  No.  Pure luck.  Some big planetoid (perhaps even the
one that was eclipsing Glorantha (or maybe just Dragon Pass) finally
fell to earth.  Maybe it's radioactive.  Maybe it's a Rama-like alien
spaceship.

But Prax was once a garden, now its wasteland, explain that!  The
water table was drained away by a crack in the crust formed when the
Block crashed into the earth.  No ground water, no life.

[END OF GOD LEARNER SECTION]

So, the next time your players complain about Glorantha being stale or
immobile or immutable, quote the mantra:

"Everything Stafford says is wrong."

If it doesn't illuminate you, at the very least it will pacify your
players.

---
Clay W. Luther                            clay@cool.vortech.com

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From: clay@cool.vortech.com (Clay Luther)
Subject: Re: The RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 12 Feb 1993
Message-ID: <199302121828.AA02543@cool.vortech.com>
Date: 12 Feb 93 06:25:48 GMT

>Clay's players seemed to prefer the High Fantasy style of play where their
>characters have the possibility of changing the world's background in a 
>major way.  Being relegated to the role of mere supporting characters in
>the history of the world was therefore insulting to them.  Is this a common
>point of view or an unusual one amongst RQ-Glorantha players?

Well, in defense of my players, they actually play more low-fantasy
than high-fantasy.

However, playing low-fantasy does not mean that they cannot have,
eventually, a major impact on area politics.  Playing a low-fantasy
game *does not all all* preclude someone from become king, or even
emporer, or of being the hero that leads an army against the army of
the EE and wins.

No, low-fantasy only implies a more-real-life level of achievement.
The characters become kings and heroes through real-life-like actions
(such as just being lucky, or becoming famous, or assassinating the
previous title holder) rather than through such mythical actions as
riding a dragon into Boldhome wielding your vorpal sword leading your
army of 1001 stone golems.

Which is how I see Glorantha.  It's a low-fantasy world with
high-fantasy myth.  Low-fantasy myth is rather dull, after all, and
wouldn't inspire anyone.  But it's much more interesting, at least to
the simple minded peasant ;), to tell a story wherein the HERO lives
300 years and marries 5 wives and fathers a nation and kills a god and
makes love to a god and then becomes a god.

Much more interesting than "well, you see, there was the empire that
did what all empires eventually do - fall, and well, there was this
guy from the land of Trax that became King of
Some-Country-I-Can't-Remeber-Than-Name-Of, maybe Farter or something,
and well, there was this other guy a few years later, and well, I
think he was a friend or something of this King of Farter, or maybe it
was Fodder, and he was actually a pretty good general, as barabarians
go, and he beat an entire legion of this fallen empire's army, which
really isn't saying much, I suppose, so they never came back to Farter
again.  And, well, there was this other guy, and you know, I think he
was the son of the son of a friend of that general guy and he had 4
wives and about 10 kids, and one of his sons went on to sign some
Declaration of Interdependence and, uh, well, here we are today.  And
you know, I think this guy had the same name as that old King of
Farter.  Old Garth?  Armtar?  Hardgrass?  Bah."

Because, that's probably more like what really happens in the REAL
history of Glorantha as related by KoS.

So, when my low-fantasy-playing-players say "I was really hoping to
become King of Sartar" they are only expressing the exact same opinion
*you* are expressing when you are 10 years old saying you want to
become president.  Nothing high fantasy about that.  After all, we've
had 40-odd presidents now, and they all had mothers and fathers just
like you.

And a couple of them are gods now, even.

---
Clay W. Luther                            clay@cool.vortech.com
Software Engineer                             Vortech Data, Inc
Office (214) 994-1377                        Fax (214) 994-1310

* IFO * IFO * We are trying to make contact * Can you hear me *
* We'd like to conduct a fax orgy * What's your 10-4 * Can you hear me * 

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From: tzunder@cix.compulink.co.uk (Tom Zunder)
Subject: KoS, TOTRM, non_Glora, Power levels
Message-ID: 
Date: 12 Feb 93 22:38:00 GMT

I think KoS was the best GS could do short of not publishing. I do
hope that they still do a Sartar book tho. ie a 1602-1621 one like the
Prax stuff.

Welcome David Hall, I have written to GS about the Basmoli.

I have probably played more non-Gloranthan RQ than Gloranthan, and it
was all good and used Gloranthan sources as well as others. I thought
Vikings was an excellent set, probably the most usable of all the AH
boxed sets.  Ninja was almost as good. I repeat that Questworld would
be nice but I also agree that Glorantha needs concentrating on.
Perhaps AH could license non-Gloranthan work?

Power Levels: We always played quite low level, low magic RQ. Recently
we've been upping levels to almost RuneLord and in fact it runs a lot
nicer. I would like my players to be contenders.

I've forgotten how to sub to A&E, could someone post the procedure?

---------------------

From: SPB1@VMS.BRIGHTON.AC.UK (Ghost Dancer)
Subject: Ripples on a pond
Message-ID: <9302122332.AA06847@Sun.COM>
Date: 12 Feb 93 13:55:00 GMT

It is nice to see that people are finally breaking away from the "I
can't do that it's not been officially released" attitude towards
Glorantha. I have on many occasions been unfortunate enough to play on
campaigns where the GM feels totally bound by the official line, to
the point where in one game we had to make a vast detour because the
area we wanted to travel through had not been officially detailed and
he didn't want to write up something that might turn out to be wrong
later.

To use a similar metaphore to the recent HeroQuest idea Glorantha is a
flat pond and your campaign starts like a stone dropping into the
water. This causes ripples which are the events of the game, everyones
game causes different ripples but in the end the pond stays much the
same. If something official comes out that contradicts what you have
done then either adapt it to fit, ignore it or think of a good excuse
why everything has suddenly changed (after all Dallas managed to
abandon a three year plot line by using a shower dream sequence).

If you worry to much about the official line then you will have to
keep your players away from anyone famous just in case they kill them
before their time, I mean what happens if you play the Cradle scenario
and the Lunars set fire to it at Harpoon and it sinks without a trace.
You have a choice, play Glorantha and accept the changes or just read
about it.

In my campaign Count Solanthos Ironpike has an identical twin brother
who is in prison in Pavis and is opposed to the PAX Lunar, it makes
for some good plot ideas so I don't really care whether it's official
or not.

BTW: I'm sure that Argrath is just as deadly in combat whether he's
got a sword or a toilet brush and a can of air freshener.
   ._
  /! \  Alternative
 /-!-/  Realities              Jarec
/  ! \  Games Club             e-mail: SPB1@VMS.BTON.AC.UK

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From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: KoS and multiple Argraths
Message-ID: <9302110834.AA03543@cs.uwa.edu.au>
Date: 12 Feb 93 23:43:04 GMT

After buying KoS I attempted to create some sort of Hero Wars time
line, at least for the years 1615-1640 (about the most I expect any
campaign to cover, even when the rumoured Epic rules come out). I
discovered that the book contains two quite different versions of
events (Argraths Saga and the CHDP) and a third time line that
disagrees with both (the Minaryth 'events in my life' near the back).

Looking at the introduction, I discovered that Argraths Saga was
supposed to be constructed from multiple sources long after the event,
so it is the most dodgy for real history ( not to mention very few
dates mentioned, and obvious confusion - ie Jar-Eel dying and
re-appearing later without comment, Harrek being banished from Sartar
and fighting alongside Argrath just afterwards) so I decided that this
is the source to ignore if in doubt.  Some events that appear to be
different can be resolved to be the same if you ignore the Argraths
Saga timeline ie the Battle of Gargantuans(if I got that right) is
probably the same as the Battle of Dwernapple.

But still the (very detailed for the years 1615-1627 or so) definately
contradicts the Minaryth timeline. Aargh! Greg you bastard!

As to Argrath being a composite, note that the figure of Argrath of
Pavis (who has a one page write-up) cannot be the same person as
Argrath who participates in the Cradle scenario (aka Garrath
Sharpsword, but definately Argrath). However the only words recorded
spoken by both of them are approximatlely the same. Note that GS then,
in his 'Conclusions', then, despite great indications that they are
not the same person (Argrath of Pavis explicitly does not go on the
Cradle adventure, and is active in Pavis while Argrath Dragonspear is
voyaging with Harrek, and is inside the city when the nomad army
(allegedly led by Argrath) advances on it), GS uses one parent from
both to create Argraths genealogy. Bastard again!

There is a third (I think almost entirely contradictory) version of
Argraths genealogy given when he meets with Leika Ballista of the
Colymar.

I loved reading KoS. But trying to work out my own Hero Wars chronolgy
will be a real pain. I think that I will basically use the one in CHDP
as the most authoritative.

This contradictory history is a nice idea - but I suspect is going to
really irritate me in practice. But I would much rather this than
going without the book (which I really like).

						Dave Cake

PS It was good to see Leika Ballista mentioned. I think she is a PC
from GSs campaign. At least some of her exploits are written up in
Dragons Past in Wyrms footnotes.

---------------------

From: trystro!rune@Think.COM (Peter Maranci)
Subject: Thanatari Ate My Screen
Message-ID: <9302130026.AA12011@Early-Bird.Think.COM>
Date: 12 Feb 93 23:18:35 GMT

	Three quick comments:

1) Dan Mazina -- I'm one of the unfortunate few who cannot ftp.  Would
it be possible for me to mail a disk to you, and get a copy?

2) Re non-RQ Glorantha: I've been running a Glorantha game online for
the last few months at a large local BBS (Argus). Though I had the
characters be roughly designed with the RQ system, I'm using Amber
Diceless mechanics to resolve skill use and combats. So far, however,
there hasn't been any need for *any* mechanics at all. We've been
operating on pretty much a story-telling level. It seems to work
fairly well, though it's slower than I'd like.

3) Re non-Glorantha RQ supplements: I'm afraid I didn't make my
original point clearly. I am not suggesting that Avalon Hill put out
material set in any other *world* than Glorantha, though some
GURPS-style one-shot books might not be a bad idea (remembering that
Glorantha should always come first). What I meant was that it would be
a good idea to put out works that would have non-Gloranthan
*elements*. I'm not talking scenario pack or adventure; rather, I'm
thinking of something a little like the RQ Companion, but not for
Glorantha. A set of general mechanical and roleplaying tools for the
RQ gamemaster, as it were. It could include such things as alternate
magic systems, short hooks for single adventures and campaigns (a
little like the "Patrons" book in Traveller), generic cult writeups,
and other oddball ideas that might not necessarily fit into Glorantha
but have interesting roleplaying possibilities.

Many of my RQ games are non-Gloranthan, and I know I'd find such a
book useful. I just don't know if it would sell.

								-->Pete
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Maranci
trystro!rune@think.com                  or                rune@trystro.uucp
"Hey! Your Tien fell in my Atyar!"  "Well, you got your Atyar in my Tien!"
Thanatar -- two great Chaos Gods that go great together!

---------------------

From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Re: [Yinkin (Shadow Cat)]
Message-ID: <9302110742.AA02456@cs.uwa.edu.au>
Date: 13 Feb 93 02:33:50 GMT

> Oh yes, or at the very least include some information regarding what a
> shadow cat is and can do, if anything special, such the one rewarded in the
> Garhound Contest.

Shadow Cats are written up in the Glorantha Bestiary (and in the RQ2
rules).  They are biggish (SIZ 1d6?) cats with v. high POW (2d6+12?)
and DEX that are associated with the Orlanth cult. The Orlanth cult
(due to associations with Yinkin) can awaken them to intelligence.
Unawakened ones are just funky pets (well, I guess they are
trainable). The best and most sacred ones are supposed to come from a
Yinkin holy site that is a cave in Wintertop (from memory). There is
at least one report (in Cults of Prax, in the Orlanth writeup part of
Biturian Varosh's story) of Orlanth speaking through a shadow-cat,
which rears up and speaks instructions to a Rune-Lord (in typical
Orlanth blank verse). It is not recorded wether that particular cat
was awakened or not.

> Non-Glorantha: I think that non-Glorantha is a good idea, but that it needs
> a coherent background. Alternate Earth was a good idea and if developed
> would have been enjoyable as the "other" setting. It needs a rider in each
> book saying that one can leave out the RQ magic if it grates (it does most
> of my players in a non-G setting). Non-specific settings such as Daughters
> or Eldarad are pointless.

I agree completely, the two RQ Earth supplements were well done. I
think that it is a great pity that they will (almost certainly) never
be updated for RQ4, from what I hear, as RQ4 combat would go nicely
with Land of Ninja. I would like to see more. Apparently the RQ Earth
line was originally planned to go to more than half a dozen titles
(until sales figures on Vikings and Land of Ninja came in). Planned
cultures included Celtic, South and Central American, Indian, and
others.

I think Land of Ninja is probably all round the second best
role-playing system for Ancient Japan, and Bushido (which I would put
in first place) is long out of print. I think Land of Ninja rewritten
for RQ4 could slip into first place, with a bit of work.

'Gateway' supplements I agree are generally pointless for most people.
Supplements like Eldarad (which looks a lot like it was intended to be
Gloranthan but Choasium wouldn't let it be (and good thing too,
considering its awful quality)) are almost worse.

---------------------

From: carlf@Panix.Com (Carl Fink)
Subject: A gaming mail server, and the Lunar Army
Message-ID: <199302130450.AA06731@sun.Panix.Com>
Date: 12 Feb 93 18:50:30 GMT

Adrian Brownload writes (">>" is me, ">" is Adrian):
 
>> My friend Mike McGloin is working on a Lunar Army supplement right now.
>> Penal battalions included.
 
>Truly Excelent. What's it called - so I can get my order in down the olde
>games shoppe? Or is it going to be a far flung release?
 
Well, it'll be at least a year, and there's no final title yet - we
have to get RuneQuest IV out the door first!  If you're interested in
playtesting, email either myself or Oliver Jovanovic
(jovanovic@cuccfa.ccc.columbia.edu) and we'll pass the message along
to Mike, who currently has no email capabilities.
 
One thing that Mike, Oliver, Mike Dawson, and Martin Crim and myself
all agree on: the problem with most RQ3 products has been a startling
lack of playtesting.  We don't plan to let that continue.
 
Dan Mazina wonders about where to upload his RQ character generator.
Folks, I haven't checked lately - is the grass-server at Wharton still
up?  That's grass-server@wharton.upenn.edu, a mail-server that holds
lots and lots of gaming-related files.  At least, it did about a year
ago, I haven't used it since.  Should I write Loren Miller, its
proprietor, and ask him if he wants some new business?
 
                                  Carl

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From: tzunder@cix.compulink.co.uk (Tom Zunder)
Subject: Sor-Eel
Message-ID: 
Date: 13 Feb 93 21:09:00 GMT

I think that Sor-Eel is a jolly good chap, doing his best in a
difficult situation and I support him fully.

Johannes Majhor, High Minister of the Red Moon.

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Tom Zunder. A man who pays his own system time, Argan Argar damn it!

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