Bell Digest v930218

Date: Thu, 18 Feb 93 17:07:13 +0100
From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Digest Subscriptions)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Subject: The RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 18 Feb 1993

This is an semi-automated digest, sent out once per day (if any
messages are pending).  Replies will be included in the next issue
automatically.

Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest.  If you 
want to submit articles to the Digest only,  contact the editor at
RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM.

--
Send Submissions to: 		    
Enquiries to:		  
The RuneQuest Daily is a spin-off of the RuneQuest Digest and deals
with the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of
Glorantha.  			 Maintainer: Henk.Langeveld@Sun.COM

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From: MILLERL@WILMA.WHARTON.UPENN.EDU (Loren J. Miller)
Subject: Non Gloranthan RuneQuest
Message-ID: <9302171720.AA04656@noc1.dccs.upenn.edu>
Date: 17 Feb 93 16:18:00 GMT

I'm presently running a non-Gloranthan RuneQuest campaign that I think
is pretty darn good. I'm playing RQ because I like the game better
than any other RPG system I've played, and I've played most of them.
Specifically I prefer it to Stormbringer and Basic RolePlaying, mostly
because of the strike rank, hit location, and armor rules, but also
because of the magic systems. I'm also in the RQ4 playtest. I've been
using the RQ4 playtest rules and trying to provide feedback that
ensures they are useful to me and to others who don't necessarily play
in Glorantha, such as rules which required cult membership for various
skills, or an inability to make up new character templates for new
settings.

I'd also like to make sure that some skills are generalized a little.
For instance --- mundane healing is difficult in glorantha, which
requires a physicker to have first aid, find healing plants, treat
disease, diagnose disease, and treat poison in order to perform as a
reasonably proficient field medic, but he still can't set a broken
bone. In my campaign I'd prefer to make mundane healing a little
easier and magic healing a little rarer, and so I will allow
characters to learn a physicker skill, which does the trick.

These are the kinds of modifications that need to be available in RQ4
in order for people to use the rules outside of Glorantha. I've
suggested to the authors that they include a short section on how to
use RQ4 outside of Glorantha, either a chapter or an appendix, but
some such section is necessary in order to point out the rules
assumptions that you will have to change to run RQ in your own
campaign world.

whoah,
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller                           internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu
Mediocrity is a hand rail.                         -- Baron de Montesquieu

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From: Richard.McAllister@Eng (Richard McAllister)
Subject: Re: The RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 17 Feb 1993
Message-ID: <9302171728.AA08363@urth.Eng.Sun.COM>
Date: 17 Feb 93 17:28:51 GMT

> 
> From: STEVEG@ARC.UG.EDS.COM (Entropy needs no maintenance)
> Subject: Orlanth's Secret ID // RQ mechanics "misfeatures"

[Paraphrasing, Steve is perplexed by the problem that a bad guy strong
enough to hurt a well-armored character will smush lightly armored
characters and kill on a single crit.]

> If anyone has managed to find a work-round to this problem, I'm eager to hear
> it.

Some ways to get around this, all aimed at "how do I give a
well-protected fighter a problem without risking having him killed in
a meaningless fight, or using foes so powerful that the lesser folks
in the party get creamed?"


1. If there are one or two better folks in the
   party, give them something else to do -- a character they have to
   protect (so, e.g. they have to cast the Shield on somebody else, leaving
   none for themselves).  A nasty spirit might be attracted to the big
   folks too -- somebody in spirit combat's going to be too busy to fight
   physically.   Have a cliff toad swallow them -- their vaunted armor
   should hold off the acid long enough for the rest of the party to
   kill the toad and get them out.

2. Numbers. (Trollkin or Rubble Runners by the dozen.)  If you attack
   the big guy with 8 little guys, the little guys get lots of chances
   to crit, and the big guy can only parry one of them.  The little guys
   will just naturally be attracted to the big fighters, leaving the lightly
   armored "lesser" characters to knock off one or two (which is easy) and
   then come to the rescue.

3. Wait for the big guy to cast his vaunted Shield IV.  Then run away
   and come back in half an hour.  Repeat until he runs out of rune
   magic (OK, sorry "divine magic.")

4. Disruption barrages don't care about armor, and never kill in one
   blow.  (Works well combined with 4 and 5.)

5. So, maybe the bad guy *will* get a crit and kill the character.  Why
   do you think they put DI and Resurrection in the rules?  Never
   take a Storm Bull anywhere without a Chalana Arroy priestess.

---------------------

From: brandon@ncbi.nlm.nih.gov (Brandon Brylawski)
Subject: Re: The RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 17 Feb 1993
Message-ID: <9302171735.AA19642@caldonia.nlm.nih.gov>
Date: 17 Feb 93 17:35:29 GMT

Consider a none-too-large troll with his favourite maul.  2D8+2D6 will
usually ding harmlessly off a reasonably protected fighter (calling a
good roll 6 on each of the D8s and 4 on the D6's, we have 20pts for a
good strike - but this could be faced by 12 points of shield, 6 of
armour and 4 more of magic).  But if you miss your parry, you'll
typically be maimed for 10 points, and a critical will ruin your whole
day!  It'll also ruin the day of the swashbuckler in light leathers
who fails his dodge.

On the other hand, against the RuneLord in full iron plate(12), Shield
IV (8), protection IV (4) and a large iron shield(24), even a maximum
crush (40) points will ding.  Anything (short of criticals) that
worries him will turn the other characters into smush!  The only thing
short of a lucky critical that ends a duel between two of these guys
armed with bastard swords, Bladesharp IV and +D4 (max=19, max slash =
30) damage bonuses is player fatigue (RQ2) or the fatigue rules (RQ3)

Meanwhile, the average guy with his D8 sword or weapon will be waiting
for specials or criticals, since they're the only thing that will get
any damage through even the 10 points standing armour.

The brittle nature of characters - anything that will moderately wound
a character in moderate armour will need to be doing ~10 points on
average (and expect to ding on a parry), but will be sudden death on
special hits or those who are lightly armoured - has always served to
discourage players who like to leaven their gaming with some cathartic
violence to work out their frustrations : and if we're going to do a
low-violence campaign, we don't really need a combat system (or much
of any system really).  And the result is inevitable as soon as it is
possible to armour up with more armour points in a location than hit
points.

This is an excellent area for discussion. I have long pored over what
to do to balance out absorptive armor systems that still allow a large
variance in what you can wear, and have some ideas.

First, get shields and parry weapons out of the armor business.
Shields and parries, unlike body armor, do not really absorb part of a
blow and let the rest pass through. Certainly, there are glancing
blows, but for the most part shields and parrying do what dodging does
: block a blow or miss it. People use shields instead of weapons to
parry because parrying with a shield is easier, given its larger area,
and because the bigger your parrying item, the less likely someone
will brush it by with a powerful blow (remember the strength
contribution to weapon attack percentage). Shields can also parry
thrown weapons, and can be used to "cover up" an area instead of
parrying, if they are of any size.  Parrying is easier than straight
dodging because it includes dodging - when you have something to
interpose you can use it AND/OR get out of the way . How can we
simulate that above conditions?

NOTE NOTE NOTE : the numbers suggested are just samples - I have not
tested all of them; try other numbers or variations.

1. Some parrying weapons and shields get bonuses to parry (or
alternatively start at higher base percentages - this works
differently in an interesting way) Weapons in order of parrying
ability:

	Knife, dagger			no bonus
	one-handed weapon		no bonus
	Buckler (leaves left hand free) +5%
	Two-handed weapon               +5% (due to reach)
	Small Shield			+10%
	Large Shield			+15%
	Tower Shield (hard to run with) +20%

(optionally) ENC less than ___ +1% per point less (mobility) 

Shields can parry thrown weapons; shields add their bonus -5% when
trying to dodge missiles.

2. Some heavy weapons are harder to parry than others, because of the
force used in the blow. The following simple chart shows what can
parry what easily; if a lighter item is used to parry, the parry is at
-5% or -10% per "level" in (1) above that the item is too light (it
may be better to dodge) If a particularly strong individual is using
the weapon, move it up one column per, say, D6 or 2D6 of strength
bonus.

WPN:	          1H wpn,2H thrust    2H sword   2H axe,maul  whump     crunch

Min. effective	      1H wpn		buckler   2H weapon    small    large
parrying item						       shield   shield

(you could stretch out or compress this, of course)

2.5 Of course, taking out parry armor means it might be better to
throttle down damage for criticals and impales, but that's a subject
in itself.

3. When trying to hurt someone in heavy armor, people usually swing
harder, at a cost to accuracy and/or speed. To simulate this, I use
these rules. These are also aimed at rescuing the system from blowing
up when people get to 100%.  AGAIN, these are just sample numbers; the
scheme is what's important.
	   
I. Combat Options.

A combatant who is otherwise unrestricted may do any or all of the
following:

1. decrease attack by 10% and increase defense by 5% ;
2. decrease defense by 10% and increase attack by 5% ;
3. decrease attack by 10% and increase damage by 1;
4. decrease attack by 10% and decrease _target's_ defense by 5% ;
5. decrease defense by 10% and decrease one attacker's attack by 5% ;
6. decrease defense by 20% and decrease the damage from one attack by 1.

(In general : you can trade off attack for defense at 2:1, and attack
for damage at 10 : 1 . )

Any of these can be used as many times as wished in one round, subject
to the following restrictions:

1. One cannot decrease one's attack or defense percentage to below
50%.  (optionally : you can decrease it to 0%; this takes the place of
any "all-out attack or defense" rules).

2. One cannot trade off a skill that is currrently unusable, e.g. if
one cannot dodge because one is being held on to, one can't trade off
the dodge skill to increase attack.

Example: Draco the Rash ( Sword attack 120%, sword parry 100% ) is
fighting a few trollkin and needs to hew his way through them rapidly
before their reinforcements show up. He decides to trade down his
parry by 40% (to 60%), trusting to his armor to shed most of the
attacks. This lets him boost his attack by half as much (20%), to 140%
. He then trades attack down 50% (to 90%) to decrease his target's
parries by 25%.  This makes it more likely that he will be able to
kill them quickly, but of course leaves him more open to being hit,
too. In game terms he is attacking so furiously that his inferior
opponents have a hard time blocking his thrusts.

II. Multiple attacks and multiple attackers:

1. You can parry or dodge more than once, but if you do each defense
is at ( -10% per defense), e.g. -30% on each roll to make three
defenses.

NOTE : If the above seem like too many options, it's easy enough to
require that anyone have only a few "standard" maneuvers for their
character, which they must write down in advance (e.g. "Berserk Lunge
= reduce defense to 50% and increase atttack by 25%). This gives all
the flexibility without having anyone do calculations in combat.

---------------------

From: markg@engrg.uwo.ca (Mark Gagnon)
Subject: Re:  The RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 17 Feb 1993
Message-ID: <9302171809.AA11788@engrg.uwo.ca>
Date: 17 Feb 93 18:09:16 GMT

Ral Partha, in Cambridge, Ontario, Canada, produced a range of figures
called "The Reptiliads"; these would make suitable DragonNewt Warriors
or Scouts, assuming of course you are willing to either live with them
as they are or do some modifications to them.

---------------------

From: tzunder@cix.compulink.co.uk (Tom Zunder)
Subject: various
Message-ID: 
Date: 17 Feb 93 21:42:00 GMT


1: Garhound is actually quite important in Pavis County. Small places
do attract outsiders for big events. The priestesses probably came
from the Paps on their circuit of the faithful. Garhound is also where
Pavis and Sun County meet and challenge each other.

2: Love the Lunar fallout theory. Note also that KoS never mentions
the return of Arkat. I suspect there is more to all this than meets
the eye. Also like Argath as the incarnation of Orlanth.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Tom Zunder. A man who pays his own system time, Argan Argar damn it!

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

---------------------

From: tzunder@cix.compulink.co.uk (Tom Zunder)
Subject: More Various
Message-ID: 
Date: 17 Feb 93 21:42:00 GMT

I think RQ and Glorantha are seperate. BRP is not RQ, RQ is much more.
I think all this "go but BRP stuff" is a little pathetic. I have BRP
(dear old thing) and you can't run much more than a bunfight with it.

RQ has a distinct feel which is part of Glorantha but can be part of
somewhere else. Similarly I believe Glorantha can be run quite
effectively with GURPS, Stormbringer, BASIC ROLE PLAYING (heh heh),
Fantasy Hero or (I now admit it's possible, maybe, if the 2nd Ed is
okay) AD&D.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Tom Zunder. A man who pays his own system time, Argan Argar damn it!

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

---------------------

From: gal502@huxley.anu.edu.au (Graeme Lindsell)
Subject: Re: armor, rules and game worlds
Message-ID: <9302180528.AA23537@cscgpo.anu.edu.au>
Date: 18 Feb 93 10:32:52 GMT

A few comments about this new sorcery system:

>The Forms are divided into 2 greater and 1 lesser school.
>
>In the school of the Elements: Earth, Air, Fire, Water
>Note:
>In our world, based on Earth, the following Laws hold true. (These are a

Well, you can tell it's based on Earth rather than Glorantha due to
the absence of Darkness as one of the elements. Do you have any plans
to adapt this system to Glorantha? Of course, there is an interesting
rune-based Glorantha sorcery system in the digest archives by, I
believe, Ken McKinney. More on runes, and Glorantha, below.

I could not understand the description of formulaic spells: are the
forms and techniques used in the casting of formulaic spells or just
in spontaneous spells? As far as I could tell, the casting system for
formulaic spells is the same as the current system. Does this mean
that the same range and duration rules (and skills) are in effect?

I certainly liked the use of the various "Law of Magic", but could you
give an example of how they are used in play?

The "Glorantha vs. Generic" (three falls, eye-gouging and kicks to
the groin allowed) Battle:

> 2) I PLAY RUNEQUEST BECAUSE RUNEQUEST IS THE BEST FANTASY RULE SYSTEM THERE
> IS, BETTER THAN GURPS, BETTER THAN AD&D (ICK!), BETTER THAN ROLEMASTER,
> BETTER THAN ANYTHING ELSE. Get it? NOT BECAUSE OF YOUR SILLY WORLD SHAPED
> LIKE A LOZENGE. (Ok, I DON'T hate Glorantha, just Gloranthan purist twits)

This sounds like an "obvious subjective value judgement" to me :-)
There is a lot going for RQ, especially, IMHO, spirit magic and the
concept of POW (isn't it amazing how so few other games seem to have
realized the importance of defining the strength of a characters soul
in a fantasy setting?), but many of the rules structures seem to be
dated compared with more recent systems: no standard set of skill
difficulties, few default skills for people skilled in a related area,
etc. This is what RQIV should solve, I hope. (All of this is IMO, of
course).

And from "Tim Leask, the bleating,ranting, purist"

>> fun. Play whatever world you like, just KEEP THE WOLRD OUT OF THE RULE 
>> SYSTEM.
>As someone else pointed out the Rules system must influence the world so you
>can't KEEP the WORLD OUT OF THE RULE SYSTEM

Especially in such things like spirit magic. RQ spirit magic heal
creates a world where people are not very worried about major wounds.
How many fantasy worlds, apart from Glorantha, can you think of where
people can stick their legs back on after they are chopped off? Where
anyone can? In playing a non-gloranthan RQ game, I would have to
modify these rules unless I wanted a world like that.

With regard to armor, STEVEG@ARC.UG.EDS.COM (Entropy needs no
maintenance) says

>Being amongst players who prefer D'Artagnan over Sir Lancelot
>as their role models, a system which makes the "DEX fighter" concept viable is
>a boon to me, and I've only found the one system amenable to this.

But D'Artagnan lived in a vastly later period from Sir Lancelot, where
guns (and perhaps longbows, if you like to argue about that) had made
that heavy armor ineffective. RQ, according to the write-up in RQII,
was meant to simulate a more classical, even primitive world. Armor
WAS effective.

I take your point about gaming being entertainment though. If you want
to de-emphasize armor, try making the "encumberance taken off skill
chance" apply to all manipulation skills, not just certain agility
skills. Or if you like a technological approach, try a spirit magic
spell that destroys the points of a location, say by 1d3, similar to
disruption. The impact of such a spell on a game world would be
similar to the effect of firearms on armor.  (See how I cunningly
manage to tie in the two threads, on armor, rules and game worlds :-))

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Graeme Lindsell                      Email: gal502@huxley.anu.edu.au
Research School of Chemistry         Phone: (06) 249 3575
Australian National University       Fax:   (06) 249 0750
---------------------------------------------------------------------

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From: appel@erzo.berkeley.edu (Shannon D. Appel)
Subject: RuneQuest Archives
Message-ID: <9302170900.AA07534@erzo.berkeley.edu>
Date: 16 Feb 93 17:00:39 GMT

Two things to note.  First of all, Dan Mazina sent me his character
generator software the other day.  It's now in pub/runequest/programs
on the archive site of soda.berkeley.edu.  Second, I've started
archiving rec.games.frp.misc threads as well, since there have been
several sizable ones of late.

I haven't started archiving the RuneQuest dailys, since I'm hoping
that the most interesting stuff will indeed be archived in regular
Digests.  Beyond that, most everything else is there though.  If
anyone else has things too big to send to the list (ie programs,
postscript character sheets, etc), feel free to upload them to
pub/runequest/upload.  If you do, please send me a piece of mail on
that machine (ie appel@soda.berkeley.edu).

Shannon

---------------------

From: g.hoyle@genie.geis.com
Subject: RQ to FH
Message-ID: <9302181446.AA18758@relay1.geis.com>
Date: 18 Feb 93 13:37:00 GMT

If anyone has any suggestions about converting RQ sorcery, spirit
magic, and divine magic to Hero Games' FANTASY HERO, please drop me a
line. My EMAIL addresses are:
 
G.HOYLE (on GEnie);
MULBORTH (on Red October);
G.HOYLE@GENIE.GEIS.COM (on Internet)
 
Thanks!

---------------------

From: danm@cpqhou.compaq.com (Dan Mazina)
Subject: RQ
Message-ID: <9302180818.aa07299@cpqhou.se.hou.compaq.com>
Date: 18 Feb 93 02:18:12 GMT


>>Consider a none-too-large troll with his favourite maul.  2D8+2D6 will usually
>>ding harmlessly off a reasonably protected fighter (calling a good roll 6 on
>>each of the D8s and 4 on the D6's, we have 20pts for a good strike - but this
>>could be faced by 12 points of shield, 6 of armour and 4 more of magic).  But
>> . . .
>>The worst news is that I don't see a fix to it; I beleive it's an inherent
>>property of all absorptive armour systems.  Whatever else one might say about
>> . . . 
>>If anyone has managed to find a work-round to this problem, I'm eager to hear
>>it.

There is a quite simple and easy fix we use all the time. I call it
the anti-ping rule: for every 5 points of damage absorbed by
armor/shields/ magic, the PC takes 1 point of general system damage
(i.e. not location specific). So if a PC absorbs from 1-4 pts of
damage, no effect; from 5-9 pts does 1 additional damage pt in
addition to anything not absorbed by armor; etc. I've had no problems
running this in my campaign.

	Dan

---------------------

From: g.hoyle@genie.geis.com
Subject: VARIANT RUNES
Message-ID: <9302181450.AA18797@relay1.geis.com>
Date: 18 Feb 93 13:33:00 GMT

Has anybody figured out what the "dark Earth" rune of Babeester Gor
signifies? Presumably it relates somehow to thedestructive aspect of
the Earth.
 
I'd also like to see a list of all the variant Runes, such as the ones
in back of CULTS OF TERROR, and some of the cults they appear in.
 
G.HOYLE (on GEnie)
MULBORTH on RED OCTOBER