Date: Tue, 23 Feb 93 21:23:09 +0100 From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Digest Subscriptions) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Subject: The RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 23 Feb 1993 This is an semi-automated digest, sent out once per day (if any messages are pending). Replies will be included in the next issue automatically. Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest. If you want to submit articles to the Digest only, contact the editor at RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM. -- Send Submissions to:Enquiries to: The RuneQuest Daily is a spin-off of the RuneQuest Digest and deals with the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. Maintainer: Henk.Langeveld@Sun.COM --------------------- From: rog@insignia.UUCP (Roger_Nolan) Subject: Worship away matches Message-ID: <1982.9302192209@vic20.insignia.co.uk> Date: 19 Feb 93 22:09:36 GMT I have always assumed that part of being initiated is that you are taught how to perform a simplified worship Date: 19 Feb 93 22:09:00 GMT It is difficult but not impossible to run mixed ability groups. You have to provide mixed ability opposition which tends to pair off at equal level. Heroes fight Heroes, wimps face wimps. This seems not unreasonable for real life, so it works wuite well in a game. If you have a problem swap the baddie character sheets! Weak unarmoured characters have to learn to stand back and use missile fire, get Heroes to cast magic on them, and generally pick fights they can win. Co-operation makes sense all the way around. Remember the opposition will do much the same. Thus a central crunch where the RuneLords wreak havoc and skirmishing initiates around the edges, not quite touching until they have to. Karse: I realise that Karse isn't on the Creek Stream. OOPS, Version 1.1 will correct that. Also comments very welcome. I have written up a version of Third Eye Blue, does anyone know anything about it? -------------------------------------------------------------------- tzunder@cix.compulink.com.uk "May the Red Moon Illuminate You All! -------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------- From: T.S.Baguley@open.ac.uk (Thom Baguley) Subject: Armour vs. No armour Message-ID: <9302200049.AA17985@Sun.COM> Date: 19 Feb 93 08:45:46 GMT Two ideas I just came up with. They're not playtested, but they are very simple. 1) Two handed weapons. A minus 10% parry (except for other 2H weapons and All Shields except the buckler). A plus 10% dodge 2) Wearing no armour. Give characters with no more than one point armour an extra action in combat (provided thay are not carrying too much e.g. half strength in ENC?). This would allow two dodges, dodge and parry or two parries in addition to an attack. The usual restrictions apply. I would allow a character to dodge and parry the same attack. (For the record, I'm a fencer and three attacks in ten seconds is not excessive, though if you apply the +3 SR rule it is not be possible unless your base SR is 4!). This rule should not apply to all non-sentients (though many animals already get 2 attacks and a dodge). (If you are feeling ver nasty heavily armoured characters could be reduced to one action. I think this would lead to player mutiny, though!). Thom _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ Human Cognition Research Lab _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ The Open University _/_/_/_/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ Milton Keynes MK7 6AA, U.K. _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ Tel: +44 908 65-4518 Fax: -3169 _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ Internet:T.S.Baguley@open.ac.uk --------------------- From: gbailey@aol.com Subject: Re: The RuneQuest Daily, Wed,... Message-ID: <9302191929.tn01001@aol.com> Date: 20 Feb 93 00:29:30 GMT *sigh* most of the messages are cut off since AOL only accepts up to 25000 bytes per message. Could you cut out some of the "standard" claims/disclaimers that you have at the front? Or reduce the wording? Or, can I be put on a list to receive each message individually? I miss my Internet access. Glen --------------------- From: rowe@soda.berkeley.edu (Eric Rowe) Subject: Dave Dobyski Message-ID: <9302201349.AA25809@soda.berkeley.edu> Date: 19 Feb 93 21:49:30 GMT As one of the many who spent long nights cursing the name of Dave Dobyski for his artistic work on some of the RQ3 Avalon Hill products I feel the need to publicly mention my recent acquisition of knowledge. It seems Dave is primarily a Graphic Designer who was working for AH at the time. Since they were too cheap to contract out for art they forced (and I mean forced) him to do the crummy art that came out since he was already on payroll. Now that he is back to doing layout and maps and that type of work his skill is quite evident. I really like the latest maps in Sun County and River of Cradles and I take back all the nasty things I said about him. eric --------------------- From: tzunder@cix.compulink.co.uk (Tom Zunder) Subject: Mixed abilities Message-ID: Date: 21 Feb 93 11:45:00 GMT It is difficult but not impossible to run mixed ability groups. You have to provide mixed ability opposition which tends to pair off at equal level. Heroes fight Heroes, wimps face wimps. This seems not unreasonable for real life, so it works wuite well in a game. If you have a problem swap the baddie character sheets! Weak unarmoured characters have to learn to stand back and use missile fire, get Heroes to cast magic on them, and generally pick fights they can win. Co-operation makes sense all the way around. Remember the opposition will do much the same. Thus a central crunch where the RuneLords wreak havoc and skirmishing initiates around the edges, not quite touching until they have to. Karse: I realise that Karse isn't on the Creek Stream. OOPS, Version 1.1 will correct that. Also comments very welcome. I have written up a version of Third Eye Blue, does anyone know anything about it? -------------------------------------------------------------------- tzunder@cix.compulink.com.uk "May the Red Moon Illuminate You All! -------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------- From: james@sol1.east-london.ac.uk (James Andrews, User Support) Subject: shields Message-ID: <24767.9302221015@uk.ac.uel.sol1> Date: 22 Feb 93 10:14:58 GMT >From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu >Subject: Use of Shields, Parries, etc. >Message-ID: <9302181746.AA27076@sonata.cc.purdue.edu> >Date: 18 Feb 93 07:46:04 GMT > > >An Idea which is worth lifting from other games is that shields have hit >points. Dont the standard rules allow for shield disintegration anyway? If the shield takes damage that exceeds its points then the shield itself takes one point of damage- I think this is a normal rule. I also use a house rule that critical hits to shields (critical hit, normal shield parry) do half the critical hiut damage to the shields points. --------------------- From: pvanheus@frodo.cs.uct.ac.za (P A van Heusden) Subject: My new magic system Message-ID: Date: 22 Feb 93 14:00:46 GMT Graeme Lindsell writes: > Well, you can tell it's based on Earth rather than Glorantha due to the > absence of Darkness as one of the elements. Do you have any plans to adapt > this system to Glorantha? Sorry, Gloranthan fans - I'm not going to adapt it since I don't play Glorantha (by virtue of being on this list, I am rather a Gloranthan spectator :) ) > I could not understand the description of formulaic spells: are the > forms and techniques used in the casting of formulaic spells or just > in spontaneous spells? As far as I could tell, the casting system for > formulaic spells is the same as the current system. Does this mean that > the same range and duration rules (and skills) are in effect? Sorry if I was not clear. Yes, essentially Formula spells are just like the current system (of course, without the Free INT). Basically, you create an effect (like 'Illusionary Chair') with a spontaneous spell, and then replicate it with less chance of success using a formula. > I certainly liked the use of the various "Law of Magic", but could you > give an example of how they are used in play? Merely a role-playing aid. The DM gives bonuses related to the Laws. > The "Glorantha vs. Generic" (three falls, eye-gouging and kicks to the > groin allowed) Battle: > > > 2) I PLAY RUNEQUEST BECAUSE RUNEQUEST IS THE BEST FANTASY RULE SYSTEM THERE > > IS, BETTER THAN GURPS, BETTER THAN AD&D (ICK!), BETTER THAN ROLEMASTER, > > BETTER THAN ANYTHING ELSE. Get it? NOT BECAUSE OF YOUR SILLY WORLD SHAPED > > LIKE A LOZENGE. (Ok, I DON'T hate Glorantha, just Gloranthan purist twits) > > This sounds like an "obvious subjective value judgement" to me :-) Indeed it was. Backed up by a couple of arguments on the modularity of RQ3. I was rather angry when writing it. > There is a lot going for RQ, especially, IMHO, spirit magic and the > concept of POW (isn't it amazing how so few other games seem to have > realized the importance of defining the strength of a characters soul > in a fantasy setting?), but many of the rules structures seem to be > dated compared with more recent systems: no standard set of skill > difficulties, few default skills for people skilled in a related area, > etc. This is what RQIV should solve, I hope. (All of this is IMO, of > course). Yes, a problem. Solution: My players can make up skills (we have Rolemaster, and use RMCII, with the something like the RMCII similar skills system). Then, of course, we still need a good char. creation process. For my demo game last week (went of VERY smoothly BTW, quick rolls, fast combat, damn good for people who have never played RQ before) I sucked the chars out of my thumb and layed 'em on ready made. Despite all this: What system is better? I find RQ to be an amazing system, much better than the rest here (I've seen Rolemaster, Vampire, Ars Magica and RuneQuest (oh, and of course AD&D)). My rating goes RQ, RM, AM, Vampire. BTW. I briefly playtested the new magic system in my demo game. It worked well, no obvious bugs. I shall continue to report on playtesting the new system. Unfortunately the party got betrayed and killed. Off to Valhalla for them. (The one player killed Bedwyr though - the setting was Rosemary Sutcliffe's Britain, a good proof that RQ is not Gloranthan - oh, and BTW, what is Basic Role-Playing System anyway? Never seen it.) And finally, I speak on low vs. high power. Everybody seems to talk as if POW was cheap, MPs came in droves, etc etc. My players seldom get better than Bezainted armour, have ok skills (around 60%-80%) and I have to trouble myself trying to keep 'em alive. Where is that high power you people refer to? (How did I live before the daily digest? :) ) Peter ******************************************************************************* Peter van Heusden "The extreme always makes an impression" CS2, UCT, Cape Town, RSA J.D. - Lethal Attraction pvanheus@frodo.cs.uct.ac.za --------------------- From: tzunder@cix.compulink.co.uk (Tom Zunder) Subject: Magic/Ritual Message-ID: Date: 22 Feb 93 19:56:00 GMT Did anyone have an answer to my silly question about ritual sorcery magic and whether you have to learn the spell fully or just spend 50 hrs? I think you learn it like a normal sorcery spell and your skill is your Ceremony/Enchant/Summon % or your spell skill %, whichever is lower. Is this how evryone else plays it? -------------------------------------------------------------------- tzunder@cix.compulink.com.uk "May the Red Moon Illuminate You All! -------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------- From: STEVEG@ARC.UG.EDS.COM (Entropy needs no maintenance) Subject: More on the combat disty Message-ID: <01GV1HIBG6HE000U4A@UG.EDS.COM> Date: 22 Feb 93 16:01:25 GMT > There appears to be a bit of a RQII hangover persisting here. Indeed, the hard-to-crack RuneLord example I cited was rough-quoted from an A&E discussion about 1980 concerning the inability of RuneLords to hurt one another except by deadly criticals. > everyone has 10 or so points of Bladesharp, the > Humakti Sword has 14 I think. Of course this makes > the problem *even worse*. Boo hoo hoo. Well, it's always nice to have the magic points to power that sort of spell w/o leaving oneself vulnerable to attack, and to have the INT to hold them in. The "total points of spells <= INT" limit at RQ3 should be enough to keep the size of spell known small, except in games in which the GM gives away too many POW storage crystals and INT spirits - magic items corrupt, powerful magic items corrupt absolutely. > Just get Mr. Friendly Shaman to bind you up a nice big spell spirit To the average Sartarite, the typical shaman is at best one of those Choas-tainted Telmori (Wolf Hsunchen), or possibly an elf or troll. Not the sort of person one goes up to and cadges spells from. > ignore the severed limbs need regrow clause and let them be healed as per > maimed limbs. the good old Healing 6 aka Glue strikes again... > "But the point of this is that the low level characters get creamed," The point is actually that the reasonable fighting type, with skills ~60% has maybe six points of worn armour and then a 60% change of twice as much again - you have to calibrate damage against that - and as the skill %s get higher, the chances of critical match those of a failed parry. --------------------- From: cnh%windom@stortek.com (Clark Hobbie-x7513) Subject: Digest submission: Godtime Message-ID: <9302191617.AA06042@windom.stortek.com> Date: 19 Feb 93 16:17:10 GMT One of the more intriguing aspects of RuneQuest's Glorantha is the concept of "Godtime" --- that absence of time that existed before time was imposed after the Great Darkness. As stated in Cults of Prax: "...but Time did not exist in the Godtime or Great Darkness. The lineal relations imposed upon the myths and stories of those ages originate from our own temporal state of mind, since we mortals assuredly are a natural part of the Time flow of the New Age. Mythical events did not always occur in the exact order we perceive them, and it sometimes is difficult to reconcile conflicting versions of certain occurrences in Dreamtime." This is all well and good, and if just background material were the only consequences of this idea then we could just say "Thanks Greg, now pass the dice..." However, that is NOT the end of it. According to RuneQuest, when characters go on HeroQuests they actually enter Godtime. This means that players, both characters and GMs, actually have to deal with events that do not occur in time. I would claim that TRUE timelessness is not a concept that players can actually model in any practical way. In fact, I would say that we cannot ever deal with some of the major consequences of having no time. To illustrate, what are the consequences of not having time? They are: inability to order events in such a way that all observers agree on the order, no causality between events, and time travel. Inability to order events is central to the concept of time. The only reason why we are interested in keeping time is because we can distinguish between events. If no events occur, that is nothing happens, then even if we COULD keep track of time (god knows how) why bother? If all events occur simultaneously, then the situation is just as bad: how useful is time if you are born and you die simultaneously? The major consequence of this is a lack of causality: in a timeless universe it is impossible to establish if one event "causes" another. Imagine that you are sitting at a board of lights and buttons. In a causal universe an easy way to determine which button causes which light to go on is to press each button and see which light goes on. In a universe where we cannot order events, however, the lights could go on BEFORE you press the proper button, or any button at all! Imagine the confusion of trying to figure out the causality when all the lights are randomly going on and off. Note that the above example assumes that there is still some form of time: i.e. you press a button and a light goes on or visa versa, but you can still determine which happens first. In a truly timeless universe, each light would have to be both off and on SIMULTANEOUSLY, a concept which I have a hard time dealing with. A final problem is that of time travel; or rather time paradoxes. If you can "revisit" and change "past" events, then there is the potential for paradoxes. For example, let's say I can travel back in time, and due to my meddling, my father is killed. If my father was killed, then I could not have been born, and therefore I could not travel back in time. But if I could not travel back in time, then my father would still be alive, so I would be born and I could travel back in time. Trying to figure out how to resolve this with one time stream makes my head swim! Now imagine trying to ROLEPLAY in such an environment: events cannot be ordered (the broo dies, you hit the broo with your sword, or is it the other way around?), there is no causality (the broo dies, but you are not sure why), and you have the possibility of paradoxes (well, you WOULD have escaped from the Hero Plane with the True Sword IF a chaos demon had not gone back in time and killed you just as you arrived to avenge the death of his brother, but wait, if he kills you when you arrive then you don't kill his brother, so he doesn't travel back in time...). I don't think that lots of gamers, if any, are up to dealing with these kinds of problems. So how do you role play on the Hero Plane? I recall someone likening HeroQuesting to Roger Zelazny's "shadows" from the books of his Amber series: there are an infinite number of alternate Earths, that you can visit and mess around in. If you die that's the end. If you change things, then things change...for you and anyone else who is with you, but not for anyone else. Furthermore, you could revisit another shadow of the same situation where you had not changed things, and events would proceed as they did "before" your changes. This sounds like a good idea, except that I would add the following: Once again from Roger Z's books, I would add the concept of "The Road" from the book "Roadmarks." The idea here is that there is a more-or-less predefined sequence of events as time goes on. This is the "main road." There are also "branches" from the main road that represent different sequences of events. The trick is that the more people who travel a branch, the more real it becomes, until, if traveled enough, it becomes the main road, and the former main road becomes a branch. If even more people travel the new main road and ignore the old one, the old one eventually disappears. What this means to RuneQuest is that yes, you can travel back to the Hill of Gold and beat up Zorak Zorran...IF you are up to it, but this will not restore Yelmalio's fire powers...completely. Instead, he regains some of his powers, but to such a small degree that it may or may not be noticeable. If enough HeroQuests are successfully completed, then Yelmalio will completely regain most of his fire powers. If even more HeroQuests are completed on top of that, then Yelmalio regains all his powers AND old ZZ might end up losing some of HIS powers! The degree to which you could affect things could be measured by how much POW you have: the more you have the more "weight" is added to your actions. Events could have a POW associated with them, and the more times the HeroQuest is successfully accomplished, the more POW is added towards the change. The consequences of a HeroQuest affect the mundane world, but only AFTER the point at which the Hero went on the HeroQuest, and everyone can agree that things were different before and after the quest. So if your character blows aways Gabaji on the Hero Plane and thereby stops the Trollkin curse, then when you return, you will be heralded as the hero who lifted the curse; trolls will NOT act as if there never was a curse in the first place. What happens if you die on a HeroQuest? If no one does anything, then you stay dead. If your pals go on another HeroQuest and somehow prevent the action that leads to your death, then you are alive...sort of. You can enter the mundane world, but you are not quite as good as you used to be. Maybe your POW is reduce by one half. Maybe all your attributes are reduced by 1...the more times your friends complete your "rescue" HeroQuest, the less the event affects you in the Mundane world. What happens if you meet yourself? You can't. If you try to "revisit" events that you participated in, then you take your own place. This would prevent characters from creating an "army" of clones and trouncing anything they meet. So what does everyone think? Should we ask for "Roads" and "Shadows" or start a "Campaign for Real Time(tm)?" Clark