Date: Tue, 30 Mar 93 17:15:18 +0200 From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Subject: The RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 30 Mar 1993 This digest was generated automatically. You may find messages that should not belong here, like subscription requests, etc. Sorry. You will of course send such requests to RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM. All mail sent to RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM will automatically be included in a next issue. Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest. If you want to submit articles to the Digest only, contact the editor at RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM. -Henk Langeveld -- Send Submissions to:Enquiries to: The RuneQuest Daily is a spin-off of the RuneQuest Digest and deals with the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. Maintainer: Henk.Langeveld@Sun.COM --------------------- From: marks@slough.mit.edu (Mark S. c/o Tom Yates) Subject: Learning by Experience Message-ID: <9303292106.AA07969@Sun.COM> Date: 29 Mar 93 21:09:44 GMT Neil Taylor writes: >The point I was making was not a matter of how many ticks etc. (she's >actually an NPC so it doesn't matter!), but one of relative rates of >acquisition of gross skills. At the time I noticed this, I was trying to >estimate skill levels for Rune-levels, extrapolating from skill bonuses. >Someone with a 5-10% bonus reaches 100% in a time which is similar (a bit >slower) than the 25% bonuses, but after that it's all different: the one >with the gross bonus shoots ahead! Still, your elf was a bit of a (pardon the pun) straw man. Not only is she an exceptional member of an exceptional race, but she puts herself in danger constantly for ten years but doesn't die or get seriously hurt. She get experience checks at the maximum rate possible for a decade. None of the time she spends on cult business gives interferes with her chances to make experience rolls on a weekly basis. She has no interest in doing anything that interferes with getting skill checks and reflecting on the lessons learned. You also ignore the slightly significant fact that as an elf she has to hibernate each winter! >How many ticks, and at what rate? I compared her with PCs who were >wandering around, and meeting various opponents & hindrances, and getting in >scrapes about once a game week. The rules indicate that successful use, is >enough, but in a "real" context (ie not practice). A fight is certainly >enough as I read it! As your (combat) skill climbs, its value to you climbs >(keeps you alive/kills your enemy), but the experience % is level, so you >can climb faster (by taking risks lesser people can't). This is a too liberal interpretation of the rules, IMHO. RuneQuest allows skill checks after successful use in stressful situations AT the gamemasters discretion. Gamemasters who allow checks after fights that do not challenge the characters (or where weapons caddying takes place) are simply bad Gamemasters. >Humans are almost all average (5-10%, perhaps 15%) (even if the blew all >their time & money on what stat training they could get), it's Elves and >such that cause the problem - they have high average rolls & HIGH species >max. If you take 10,000 elves & 10,000 humans, you will find a bell-curve >distribution: >1-in-216 humans have INT 18; 1-in-216 elves have INT 24! 56-in-216 elves >have INT 19+ That's 2600 elves with supra-genius INT.... Watch out guys, the >pointies (Vulcans?) are coming! If this is the case, you have no quarrel with the experience rules. You simply don't like the fact that in Glorantha elves are much better than humans. (Unless you have some information that leads you to believe that elves have superhuman characteristics, but still learn at mundane rates) *************************************************************************** This brings up the question of the status of humans in Glorantha. From the perspective of a munchkin, humans leave much to be desired. Dark trolls, for example, equal or exceed all human stats on average. Most other races in Glorantha are superior to humans. On the whole humans seem to be a rather pathetic race in Glorantha. Any attempt to gain knowledge or power over their fate leads too disaster (the Gbaji debacle, the God Learners, the EWF). History is the story of mere men being killed by Mountain Range sized dragons, being mutated or consumed by chaos beasties, or being slaughtered by the regiment at the hands of some godling. Even human heros are rather inhuman. What does any of us have in common with Jar-Eel, the illuminated immortal daughter of the immortal son of a goddess? Perhaps the marginal nature of humans in Glorantha is a result of arrogance of the mythic imagination. Nothing merely human could be interesting. At the end of the Hero's Wars will we find that the Brinthi wipe out mortal humans in the West? This would leave Chaos tainted Illuminated humans led by immortal Lunar godlings in the middle, and the in the East bunches of people who want to become inhuman dragons, just like their emperor. Just some depressing thoughts, Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Sabalauskas-Marks@slough.mit.edu --------------------------- "With seasonally adjusted temperatures, you could eliminate winter in Canada." Robert L Stansfeild ----------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------- From: JOVANOVIC@CUCCFA.CCC.COLUMBIA.EDU Subject: RQIV Message-ID: <930329165608.1f44@CUCCFA.CCC.COLUMBIA.EDU> Date: 29 Mar 93 11:56:08 GMT A few comments with respect to the distribution of the RQIV playtest draft. I have been asked by Avalon Hill to put a temporary hold on distribution of the RQIV draft, until they have had a chance to go over the draft and the playtester responses to it in detail. As a result, I will not be distributing any copies of the draft for the next month or two, possibly longer, depending on how long it takes Avalon Hill to get to this - as they are currently working on Dorastor at full tilt, it may be a while. If you have received the RQIV draft from an "unofficial" source, and have some comments on it, I would suggest you send comments directly to me, rather than posting them to the RQ Digest, as I suspect there is otherwise a good chance the Digest will get flooded with a lot of repetitious comments and questions on rules that are nowhere near final form. I'll be talking to Peter Wake about the idea of summarizing playtester comments and the responses to them, and posting this summary to the Digest - this should serve to keep people up to date, but avoid flooding the digest. As a final note, I'm happy to look at any comments that come in - however, these comments will get passed along to Avalon Hill and the other people working on RQIV, and I suspect that the more concise and to the point the comments are, the more likely they are to be thoroughly examined. If this is a concern for you, it is probably worth taking a bit of time to compile and edit your comments over a period of time and send them as a single document - this also makes handling them easier for me. My email address, if it is unclear from the header, is "jovanovic@cuccfa.ccc.columbia.edu". Thanks for your interest, Oliver Jovanovic P.S. Mark, you should hear from me shortly via email. --------------------- From: NEIL@ARC.UG.EDS.COM (Neil Taylor ext 315) Subject: Re: The RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 29 Mar 1993 Message-ID: <01GWECD0IGAA000F37@UG.EDS.COM> Date: 29 Mar 93 16:22:24 GMT From: MAB@SAVAX750.RUTHERFORD.AC.UK (Mystic Musk Ox) > Firing into a melee: This is difficult to resolve. I don't really > like the old method of +5% to hit per figure in the melee and then > roll randomly to see who is hit, the person firing the missile ought > to have the chance to use skill to hit their target (How about add > +5% per figure, as above, firing character then rolls to hit. If they > score 50% or less of their modified skill, they hit their target, if > they score 51-100% of their skill, they hit someone else, otherwise > they miss the whole melee?). Hmm - so if I have a basic 25% skill & there are 8 people in melee, then I get +40%, making 65%, and hit my target in the lower half of my skill range - 32.5% -- oops! this is better than my basic skill! Also, which half of the modified skill range gets the increased special & critical hit%s? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ B-) --------------------- From: henkl@glorantha (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland) Subject: Re: RQIV Message-ID: <9303300851.AA14187@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM> Date: 30 Mar 93 12:51:31 GMT > A few comments with respect to the distribution of the RQIV playtest > draft. Thanks Oliver. I'd like to second your proposal. Please forward comments to RQ4 to Oliver and not to RuneQuest@Glorantha... Thanks --------------------- From: ccwf@ugcs.caltech.edu (Charles C. Fu) Subject: Errata request Message-ID: <9303301330.AA01412@beyond.ugcs.caltech.edu> Date: 29 Mar 93 21:30:55 GMT A few people have mentioned the existence of errata. Knowing AH, they have almost certainly printed errata in _The General_, but all I have are old pre-AH errata from the _RQ Companion_. I suppose it would be too much to hope that someone has up-to-date errata somewhere on-line? Also, has anyone else noticed that Glorantha's underlying metaphysical principles seem to be getting closer to those in Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion novels? The "gods are a product of men's belief" theme is especially strong in the _Chronicles of Corum_, and the revisionist history motif underlies the _Chronicles of Count Brass_. (And, of course, the Stormbringer and Hawkmoon rules bear a remarkable resemblance to the RQ rules. B-) -ccwf --------------------- From: peterw@computer-science.manchester.ac.uk (Peter Wake) Subject: Re: The RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 29 Mar 1993 Message-ID: <9303301348.AA01110@r2k.cs.man.ac.uk> Date: 30 Mar 93 13:48:04 GMT >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >sent to: Oliver Jovanovic > RuneQuest Daily >------------------------------------------------------------------------ Regarding the RQ4 rules that are making the rounds. This rules set has been through playtesting and a new draft has been written. Most of the problems have already been found. Oliver remarked that he was more interested in the general feel that people got from it than in detail comments. However... I have had a mail discussion with Oliver and it looks like a good idea if instead of choking up the digest with a discussion of a rules set (which has already 'out of date') that people can send their comments on the old 2.0 draft to me (peterw@cs.man.ac.uk) or to Oliver (JOVANOVIC@CUCCFA.CCC.COLUMBIA.EDU). I will compile all the comments and mail a summary to the digest whenever appropriate. Hopefully that way they can all be discussed all at one go and all together, instead of stretching it over weeks and repeating things. ---------- Peter Wake -------------------- Here's an excerpt from the discussion ------------------ I think that's a great idea - a summary would get the essential information out to people, but avoid flooding the digest. I have no problem going through the material people send in, but I'm a bit short of time to summarize it at the level of detail that would be useful to digest readers - if you're really interested in doing something of this sort, what I would probably do is send you the comments I receive on it over the next few weeks - you could do the official Digest summary of playtester comments. I'm already doing something of the sort for solicited playtester comments of the groups we have currently "officially" playtesting the drafts, but doing something of the sort for unsolicited comments would be a great idea. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------- From: seh0@aberystwyth.ac.uk Subject: Kartorak, TheDragon God Message-ID: <9303291645.AA27762@decb.aber.ac.uk> Date: 29 Mar 93 18:45:19 GMT One of the great losses in Runequest has always seemed to me to be the fact that dragonewts and player characters never really came together. Below is a cult which may resolve this dilemma. The cult has been heavily featured in my ongoing campaign and certainly seems to work well. There are several other cults which I hope to route through if the demand is there. I would, however, like to reserve the copyright for printed publication, as I would like to get this printed in Reaching Moon, if possible, and eventually to Chaosium (who knows? The sky's the limit). Therefoere, while I have no problems with it being distributed in the Digest, I reserve any further rights to publication. Talk to me about it, by all means. Any general RQ comments that anyone wishes to direct to me personally (a player of 12 year standing!) then mail me straight if you like. The address is above. Cults Of Steve Stephen Hunt Kartorak Mythos and History In the times of turbulence known as the Lesser Darkness, following the death of Yelm, the lord Kargan Tor of the Celestial Court faced Orlanth in battle, and, in the conflict, was dealt a mighty wound. From that wound his blood fell out of the skies to the earth. Where the blood struck, in the Shadows Dance, it bored a deep pit, known as the Skyfall Place, at the bottom of which lay an egg. When this egg hatched some time later, the figure of Kartorak emerged. His first act was to climb out of the mighty pit that his father's blood had carved. When he reached the top, he found that the world was just giving way to the time of the Birth of Chaos. Kartorak took upon himself the form of a Full Priest Dragonewt, save that his skin was a rich crimson, and travelled to the Dagori Inkarth, where he entered an ancient Dragonewt City that was located there at that time. There, he took as a mate, the priestess Rashi Taratelessa. However, as Chaos advanced, the dragonewts were forced to take action after a number of attacks upon the city. It was during one of these assaults, known as the Chaos Harvest, that Kartorak's mate was slain. Until then, he had remained passive, preferring a life of peace instead of giving vent to the war-like nature that his father had possessed. When his mate was slain, he cast aside such thoughts, and, girding himself in appropriate armour, he gathered about him a legion of the finest Dragonewt warriors and rode out to face the Chaos breed that so beset the world. This legion, named the Legion of Order, fought against many of the Chaos breeds that had attacked the Dragonewts, and went further to strike against those that oppressed the young race of man. They rode in many conflicts, and their name entered into legend. As time wore on, however, Chaos grew steadily stronger, and the Legion grew weary. They still rode in the battle of the God's Last Stand on the Fields of Plenty. When this battle was lost, many of the riders had scattered. The few remaining, still under the leadership of Kartorak, fell back to the Spike, where Kartorak met his father. When Kargan Tor abandoned his post, Kartorak fought in his place, but was overwhelmed by the Chaos forces. As he was beaten down, the only surviving rider dragged him away and saved him from the explosion that sundered the Spike. As the time of the Greater Darkness arrived, Kartorak found himself grievously injured, the wounds inflicted by the Chaos had not healed. He journeyed back to the Shadows Dance, assisted by the last rider, whose name was Shinoi Issela, and there he rested as the times of darkness passed. Shinoi mustered a new Legion, but it was of little measure compared with the old. The Legion had only just been gathered when Kartorak died, re-emerging as the Inhuman King, although he still suffered from his Chaos wounds. He continued to nurture his fellow Dragonewts, and defended them from the wrongs that strayed their way. The age neared its end, and as the world faced oblivion, Kartorak decided it was time to ride once more against Chaos. He met with Chalana Arroy, who healed him of his old wounds in return for certain favours. Taking his new Legion about him, he rode into the midst of the I Fought We Won war. It was in this last, desperate battle, that he was finally slain. In the midst of battle, he encountered Thed, mother of the Broos, and rode against her. She struck him down, and infected him with the Wasting Disease. Before she could finish him, the remnants of the Legion were somehow able to intervene, driving Thed back temporarily, and bearing their leader away. He died shortly after, bequeathing his position to Shinoi. At the same time, a great egg hatched in the Dragonewt City, and a crimson dragon rose and flew north towards the heart of chaos. Shinoi, who also died as a result of that battle, rose again as the Inhuman King, and formed the cult of Kartorak, to honour this mightiest of warriors. Kartorak worshippers believe in a cycle of reincarnation ultimately resolving in one of two distinct ends. If one achieves greatness, then he becomes one with the tribal memory and karmic "heaven". However, if nothing is achieved in one's life, then one's soul is forfeit to the void at the site of the Spike. Kartorak is associated with the Runes of Dragonewt, Change, and Death. Organisation Kartorak's cult is found throughout the world's Dragonewt Nests, and is particularly strong throughout the Dagori Inkarth, Prax and Sartar. All temples defer to the temple of the High Priest, which is in the Dagori Inkarth. The cult has one overall High Priest, and numerous other Priests. Each temple has one representative of Chief Priest status. Other priests are only required to be of Tailed Priest status. The only Inhuman King ever to have been of High Priest status was Shinoi Issela. The Legion of Order is still maintained, and is based in the Dagori Inkarth, although it is composed of the greater warriors from throughout all of the Dragonewt nests. Its leader is always of Rune Lord status within the cult, and is known as Kartorak's Hand. The centre of power is in the Dragonewt City in the Dagori Inkarth. Its holy places are located in several important locations. The most important shrine is the Skyfall Place, where Kartorak fell to Glorantha. It is a place surrounded by unusual magics, and often found there are small crystals, called Crystal Tears (see Misc Notes) The second most important shrine is within the Dragonewt City, where Kartorak consummated his union with his mate, and where she herself later died. A number of lesser shrines are to be found, usually at places where the Legion has distinguished itself in battle. The High Holy Day for this cult is Godday of Death Week in the Dark Season, at which time Kartorak's death is commemorated. Regular services are held on Godday in Movement week throughout the rest of the year, as well as on Godday throughout the Sacred Time. Nature of the Cult This cult forms, essentially, a Dragonewt Warrior cult. As long as there are Dragonewts, and as long as there is the need for battle, this cult will survive. Membership in the cult is compulsory in some areas, and it is prestigious to be an initiate if one is a member of the defence forces guarding the dragonewt nests. Kartorak is opposed to Chaos, especially the Broo, as it is their mother that is responsible for his demise. Individual members are expected to combat chaos whenever it is encountered. To this end, it has forged close links with the cult of Storm Bull, and still maintains links with Humakt, who fought alongside Kartorak in the Chaos Wars. He is also allied with Chalana Arroy, who provided healing for him before the I Fought We Won war. Lay Membership All dragonewts may become lay members if they so wish. Other races are not permitted to join as dedicated members, but may be bestowed the title "Friend of the Dragon" which incurs the same benefits as lay membership. To qualify for the title, the prospective candidate must prove their affinity by an act of bravery or loyalty. Lay members must sacrifice 1 point of POW every holy day and 2 points every High Holy Day. Also, lay members are required to aid fellow dragonewts whenever possible. Lay members may claim free board and lodging in any temple, in return for giving service to the temple. They may also receive free healing. Skills that are taught for half-price to lay members are bastard sword (the weapon once used by Shinoi Issela), bow, javelin, short sword, Hide in Cover, Move Quietly, Camouflage, Ride, Read/Write Own Language. However, the skills of Mace and Lock Picking are double the normal cost. These skills are unworthy of the devout Kartorak worshipper. Lay members may also learn the spells of Bladesharp, Speedart and Healing for half-price. Dullblade and Bludgeon are double cost. Initiate Membership To qualify for Initiate status, a dragonewt must be of the second stage, and have been a lay member for at least a year. Outsiders may qualify for the rank of "Dragon's Tooth", which confers the same benefits as initiate status, if they perform a major act of kindness or self-sacrifice for the cult (such as saving a temple, or bestowing an artifact). An initiate must sacrifice 2 points of POW every holy day and all but 1 point of POW on the cult High Holy Day. They must attend cult functions if at all possible, and must also give 10 In addition to the benefits gained by lay members, initiates may also learn the spells of Fireblade, Repair and Shimmer, all at half-price. The spell Bludgeon is prohibited from this stage, although it is not forgotten yet. Initiates may also sacrifice for one-use Rune magic, should the priests decree that they are worthy. If the initiate has not achieved anything of note then this is abstracted as a test of the average of POW and CHA times 5 or less on D100. Initiates are also expected to defend their nest to the best of their ability. Cowardice is an offence that gives grounds for expulsion from the cult. Of the very bravest initiates, a very small number may ride with the Legion of Order, should there be a place for them within the formation. To qualify for this, an initiate should have shown real dedication to the cult. Dragon's Fist (Rune Lord) Rune Lords are accepted from the third stage onwards, although exceptional second stage dragonewts do sometimes qualify. The prospective Rune Lord must have been an initiate for at least a year, and have a POW of 15+. He must also have 90 Klanth, Bow, Javelin, Shortsword, Pole Axe, Ride Demi-Bird, Move Quietly, Hide in Cover, Camouflage, Read/Write Own Language and Tracking. Finally he must pass a test, which is abstracted as rolling under the average of his POW, CHA and INT times 5 on D100. These chances may be improved by adding 1 A Rune Lord must provide his own Iron to enchant as armour if he wishes to possess such armour, but qualifies for an allied spirit. Rune Lords may also claim more luxurious board at a temple, and often have greater influence when selecting a mate. They may also learn the spells of Bladesharp, Mobility and Repair free. In addition to these benefits, the Rune Lord has the usual Divine Intervention that is available. A select number of Rune Lords belong to the Legion of Order. To qualify for this, unless the cult is in difficult times, which it is currently, a Rune Lord must have proven his ability and been at that level for at least a year. The current leader of the Legion is a Rune Lord-Priest of the cult. At the moment, any Rune Lord may ride with the Order, at the expense of some of the greater initiates who ride with the Legion. Rune Lords must sacrifice the same amount of POW as initiates, and pledge to defend their nests to the death. They must also fight all incarnations of chaos whenever they are encountered, although they may retire to summon up suitable reinforcements. Kartorak is not a foolish god. Rune Lords must also make a pilgrimage to the Skyfall Place once a year, and re-pledge their allegiance to their lord in a special ceremony. Dragon's Heart(Rune Priesthood) To qualify for Priesthood, the applicant must be at least a Tailed Priest, and must possess 90 must also pass the usual test. They may receive an allied spirit and can gain Rune spells as per normal. Also, Kartorak priests are not limited to Dex x 5 because of the number of occasions on which a Kartorak priest may be called upon to fight. Kartorak priests have access to all standard spells. In addition to this, they have a number of cult speciality Rune spells. Dragon Hide 1 point spell, duration 15 mins, range touch, reusable, stackable up to 4 pts This spell is effectively a variation on Shield. Each point of the spell serves as a 2 point Protection spell, but it does not provide the Countermagic element of Shield. Instead, the caster is rendered immune from all forms of fire damage. Summon Dream Dragon 4 point spell, duration 15 mins, range 60m, reusable, non-stackable This is fairly self-explanatory. It summons up a dream dragon, in the same manner as other cults summon elementals. This dream dragon will fight for the caster until the end of the duration, or until it is destroyed. It is said that the dream dragon that forms is one that springs directly from Kartorak's sleeping mind. The dragon will be of (1d20)d6 size and its other attributes will be generated accordingly. Flight of the Dragon 4 point spell, duration 24 hours, range self, non-reusable, non-stackable This spell, little used by the cult, enables the caster to fly at movement class 20 for up to 24 hours. During this time, the caster may communicate mentally with one of the ancient dragons on certain topics. The details of this are somewhat vague, as few have ever performed this act, and fewer still have passed on any details of the event afterwards. Also the spells of Prehealing (a 3-point Rune Spell), and Dragon Breath (1 point) are available through the cult. These spells were first printed in Wyrms Footnotes. Subservient Cults Rashi Taratelessa Kartorak's mate is now the cult spirit of retribution. Should an apostate ever approach a Dragonewt nest following his treachery, then she will attack in spirit combat with a POW of 30, casting the same spirit-defensive spells as the apostate does. She will cease the attack when the apostate runs away or when he is slain. This will happen every time the apostate approaches until he reaffirms his faith. Shinoi Issela A splinter group of the main cult still reveres Shinoi Issela, the last rider of the first Legion. Worshippers of this faction follow all the regulations of the cult, but aim solely to ride with the Legion, and wear a special uniform bearing the mark of a Dragon's claw to signify their allegiance. Many of this faction also choose to wield a shortsword as their main weapon, as this was the weapon of Shinoi. Associated Cults Chalana Arroy Chalana Arroy, the healer, mended Kartorak's wounds before the battle of I Fought We Won. As a token of thanks for that act, the cult extend protection to any Chalana Arroy priestess who requests it. In return, Chalana Arroy provide the Rune spell of Comfort Song, which is often learnt by members of the Legion who sing it to their dying companions. Humakt The warrior god, who fought alongside Kartorak before his death, has pledged allegiance with him, and the two cults remain on close terms. Kartorak provides the warrior cult with the Rune Level spell of Dragon Hide, on a one-use basis, and in return Humakt offers the spell of Morale, on the same basis, for those of Rune Lord status, and in particular to the warriors of the Legion. Storm Bull Storm Bull is a close confederate of the cult, as they both share the same aim of vanquishing chaos. Both cults are pledged to assist each other if they seek the destruction of chaos. To this end, Dragon Hide is give to Storm Bull, as with Humakt. Storm Bull offer Defend Against Chaos in return. Miscellaneous Notes Crystal Tears Crystal Tears may be found about the Skyfall Place. They have a special ability. When a point of POW is cast upon them, they resonate with a frequency that increases when in the presence of Chaos. Simultaneously, the crystals grow an ever brighter red. The Power point will last an hour. The frequency of the crystal is such that it can be felt but not heard. The Legion of Order The Legion is always maintained at the Dragonewt City in the Dagori Inkarth. To qualify for membership, one is usually required to be a Rune Lord. However, since there are often problems with gathering 100 Rune Lords for a permanent defence force, then initiates may also qualify. To do so, they must have mastery of one melee weapon, and have at least 75 function of the Legion in recent times has been to harass the Lunar Empire as much as possible. Indeed, they have proven to be a considerable thorn in the Empire's side as they progress in their domination of Sartar. However, the Empire has not yet contented itself with the prospect of all-out war with the Dragonewts, so it has not launched any major assaults on them as yet. It would seem, though, that it is merely a matter of time. PS Latex version available of the above PPS Coming Soon! Cernein, lord of the forest! Kargan Tor, warrior of the Celestial Court, and much, much more..........(fanfare please) Better Red Than Dead