Bell Digest v930428

From runequest Wed May  5 12:25:47 1993
From news@glorantha Wed Apr 28 17:19:11 1993
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Date: Wed, 28 Apr 93 17:17:54 +0200
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From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 28 Apr 1993, part 1
Precedence: junk
Status: OR

This is the automated Daily RuneQuest Digest.

Send submissions only to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM", they
will automatically be included in a next issue.  Try to change the
~Subject: line from the default Re: RuneQuest Daily...  on replying.

Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest.  If you 
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						-Henk Langeveld
--
Send Submissions to: 		    	
Enquiries to:		  
The RuneQuest Daily is a spin-off of the RuneQuest Digest and deals
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---------------------

~From: SPB1@VMS.BRIGHTON.AC.UK (Ghost Dancer)
~Subject: Cults & how to release them
Message-ID: <9304272022.AA08643@Sun.COM>
~Date: 27 Apr 93 15:01:00 GMT

I'd just like to put down a few thoughts about how cults are released, these 
thoughts might be seen as fence sitting but I think that they do go some way to 
satisfying the percieved needs of both sides of the argument.

In reading the recent mass of mail concerning cults two things seem to be most 
desired.

1)  AH desire to keep cults tied to regional supplements. This seems to me to 
make excellent sense from a marketing point of view. AH have two important 
roles to play in RuneQuest. First to support the existing players by releasing 
as much quality material as possible, this unfortunately must be a trade off as 
quality will ineviably reduce the quantity. Secondly to encourage new players 
to take up RuneQuest, this second purpose benefits us all as the more people 
that play the more money and time AH will put into supporting RQ. From the 
point of view of new players it is far more encouraging if they can buy the 
rules and one regional pack and get started without having to buy half a dozen 
more extra rules sets to play. Without the oppertunity to try the game they are 
likely to say stuff that and go back to D&D or whatever, remember that RQ 
probably gets most of its players from other games rather than first time 
gamers. In many respects this is a strong case for RQIV to be strongly set in 
Glorantha as this mythos has always been RQ's greatest asset, but it must 
always be possible for people to easily play outside of Glorantha.

2)  Players, and that includes me, want detailed cult write ups all in one 
place. This makes game sense as under the present system I need a car to 
transport all of my RQ stuff to the club for a nights game.

So how do we address both of these needs? What I suggest is to publish the 
cults with regional packs but print them as a seperate book rather than in the 
main volume. This way they can easily be filed together in a ring binder or 
folder. This also has benefits over the CoT, CoP idea in that you can just take 
along the cult details you need rather than having to take along a whole book 
just for one obscure cult that one of the players happens to be a member of. 
This idea also works well for other sections of any releases as the regional 
descriptions could also be filed together with any scenarios seperate again.

I would also like to strongly suggest the idea of each cult having a seperate 
one page players intro to the cult as I find it difficult to conceive the idea 
that an adventurer would instantly have in depth knowledge of a cult just 
because he/she was a Lay or Initiate member. A handy handout giving the cult 
mythos and a few general notes without all the Rune level and associated cult 
details would be very useful as each player could have a copy of their cults 
details to file alongside their character sheet for easy reference. At the 
moment I try to provide such reference material but find that the time it can 
take to produce often detracts from the time I have to develope other campaign 
material.

Well that's my 10p's worth for now. 


   ._
  /! \  Alternative
 /-!-/  Realities                   Jarec
/  ! \  Games Club                  e-mail: SPB1@VMS.BTON.AC.UK



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~From: awr0@aberystwyth.ac.uk
~Subject: RQ2/RQ4
Message-ID: <9304271630.AA13358@uk.ac.aber.fronta>
~Date: 27 Apr 93 18:30:57 GMT

	Maybe RQ4 should provide a simple core of rules, similar to RQ2 in 
flavour and then supply a number of optional rules to complicate and make tthe
game more 'realistic'. In this way you could quite easily solve everybodies 
little fantasies.

Adam Reynolds
'Ha, I take 1 point of damage, that leaves me on 15 hp. What do you mean it had
Blade Venom 16 on it?!' -> Thank God for Healers!!

---------------------

~From: tsl@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Tim Leask)
~Subject: Format for RQ Material
Message-ID: <9304280008.3459@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU>
~Date: 28 Apr 93 15:07:57 GMT

The obvious format for RQ material isn't lay flat binding or hard bound
books it's CD-ROM ! :-) I could have everything ever printed on RQ readily
accessible. Using the latest multi-media technology we could have recordings
of Greg Stafford and Ken explaining the finer points of Glorathan lore.
We could have live action video demonstrations of those tricky game mechanics.
An interactive video demonstrating the visibility and utility of magic.
A seminar series for God Learners detailing all the creatures of Glorantha.
We could relive great moments in Gloranthan history - the rising of the
Red Moon, the Destruction of Gbaji, the Dragonkill War, the fall of Whitewall,
the Battle of Moonbroth. What about it Ken ?

Tim
================================================================================
Department of Computer Science    /*\__/\      "Money is something you have in
University of Melbourne          <       \     case you don't die tomorrow."
Parkville, Vic., 3052, AUSTRALIA  \  _  _/     Gordon Gecko.
Phone: +61 3 282 2439              \| --
e-mail: tsl@cs.mu.oz.au
================================================================================

---------------------

~From: nrobinso@sirius.UVic.CA (Neil Robinson)
~Subject: Boldhome
Message-ID: <69648.nrobinso@sirius.uvic.ca>
~Date: 28 Apr 93 03:20:42 GMT

Those of us unfortunate enough to miss Convulsions '92 (a long trip
on a student budget) got to read about it in Tales.  I got the highlights
on the Boldhome session, but it merely whetted my appetite to learn
more about it.

Does anyone know if the handouts are somehow available?  I am willing
to pay shipping and any other costs for a legitimate version.

RE: Reprinting RQ II versus RQ IV

I'm one of the lucky with a large stash of RQ II, so I'm into some
more new stuff, perhaps with some old information as filler if needed.
The current revival of my favourite game is amazing, and I barely have
enough time to keep up reading this list - just the way I like it.

And lastly, a question (hopefully simple)

When you critical an opponent with a spear, do you also impale him?
Versus an opponent with less than 9 points of armour protection (the
average opponent), the impale is more deadly than the critical.
Neil Robinson              | "Never underestimate the power of human
nrobinso@sirius.uvic.ca    |  stupidity." - L. Long
2996 Dysart Rd. Victoria B.C. V9A 2K2     (604) 383-5094

---------------------

~From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
~Subject: Slaves of Prax, and other Heresies
Message-ID: <930428064144_100270.337_BHB18-1@CompuServe.COM>
~Date: 28 Apr 93 06:41:44 GMT

Hi again!
_________________
for Adrian Brownlow:

PRAX:
Your Praxian sympathies have earned my contempt.  The Praxians are a 
monstrous people, who lack all social graces.  Their slaves have a terrible 
time, and are NOT adopted into the Khan's tribe.  If they were Praxians 
themselves, they wouldn't want to join another beast's tribe.  If they 
weren't, what chance would they have of proving themselves worthy of 
initiation?  (cf. Borderlands scenario 7 for an example of how tricky 
everyday Praxian skills can be for outsiders to emulate).  They have no 
chance of social advancement and live miserable lives; their happiest days 
are when they can shovel the dung of the captured beasts of their tribe 
(the only time they get any contact with them).

Note that Players' Book Genertela p.13 "War" implies Praxians take women 
and children as slaves when they raid.  Now there, you might have a chance. 
 A slave-wife who bore the khan a child might well be adopted; a child who 
had never been initiated into another beast-Waha cult is also in with a 
chance if he shows promise.  But for grown men, whether of Waha or foreign 
cults, there is no real chance of advancement.

Tales 6 p.38 n.12 says Praxians "always" treat their fellow people with 
respect, even their slaves.  If you believe that, you'll believe anything!  
Praxians are a vile, brutish, bestial race, and the sooner we bring them 
into the Light of the Red Moon, the better.

Remember, too, the Morocanth slavers...

LUNARS:
Yup, the Romans are a fine model here.  The old Dara Happans would have 
treated slaves more like Cato the Elder recommended (pure property).  Later 
Republican innovations like latifundiae (slave-run estates, cf. River of 
Cradles p.44, penultimate paragraph) and manumission would be Lunar 
novelties.  Certainly some slaves have risen to positions of authority 
among the Red Emperor's ministers (which causes no small amount of distress 
to the old nobility).

I remember reading somewhere that some Lunar satraps are attempting slowly 
to enslave their entire populations, by one means or another.  Gives them 
better control over their populace.

I'd suggest that, as all Lunar Citizens are considered lay members of 
Moonson, all Lunar slaves might be considered lay members of Danfive Xaron; 
he is, after all, depicted in chains.  This gives them a place in Lunar 
society (however peripheral) and a chance of advancement.  I doubt the Dara 
Happans stopped to think about who might be god of slaves.

PENT:
Yes.  The sketchy stuff in Genertela Book p.62 confirms your speculations.  
Again there is adoption for slave women who bear children to the tribe; men 
get it rather worse, though!  Since the position of a "free" woman in 
Yelmic society is so terrible (treated as chattel property; not allowed to 
talk to other women without a man present; etc.), slavery isn't such a big 
problem for them.

ORLANTHI:
See KoS p.244, and the Cults of Prax appendix I mentioned earlier.  Just 
about says it all, really.  The Anglo-Saxon bondsman is a good model; there 
are certainly opportunities for thralls if they are taken into a generous 
clan.  But most aren't.

___________________
THE KINGDOM OF WAR

The Kingdom of War "IS" a Humakti heresy: war for the sake of war.   Think 
of the march of the Unspeakable (but almost Unstoppable) Turk through the 
Balkans; the Beast-Masked Armies of Granbretan coursing across Europe; all 
those Robert E. Howard "army on the move" stories.  Landscapes like 
something out of Hieronymus Bosch or the Great War.  "One-dimensional 
slavering evil style enemies" just about sums them up.

	"Today Loskalm, tomorrow the world!"

Not the cult of Wachaza (too specifically located), but they might have 
something similar.  My good friend Mike Hagen suggested that "a hundred 
gods of war" might mean that the KoW has an organised army, with specialist 
units, that would be unfamiliar to the feudal Western armies it faces.  
Their unit insignia would be taken for religious signs (as in the Lunar 
Army: Cult of the Granite Phalanx, et al.).

______________
for David Ingram:

Yup, you're dead right about voluntarily taking on extra geases as a way of 
showing God how keen you are.  I'd encourage it, if I was a Sword of Humakt 
(or whoever).  It's like Orlanth initiates learning the "poetry": they 
don't have to, but it looks good if they do.

_______________
For L.P. Williams:

It's a bit cheap taking the three Religions of the Book as your example of 
how similar cults can become!  The cult write-up is a useful format, but is 
not an exhaustive description.  At its best, it shows one form of the 
religion in depth.  At its worst, it pleases nobody by offering 
generalities where specifics are needed (see the Cult of Maran Gor in Tales 
6 for an example of this).  I would always take a cult write-up with a 
pinch of salt and another of imagination; work out what things the cult 
does that your culture would need access to, and then decide how they are 
implemented.  Use Hero Cults (cf. Chalana Arroy in River of Cradles, or 
Humakt in Tales 5) to create local minor variations; rewrite the cults to 
suit yourself if you're setting your campaign out of the way.

The Storm Bull was almost killed fighting the Devil (River of Cradles 
p.153)!  How can you think this means he wasn't (or shouldn't be) affected 
by Chaos?  What you need to do is take Arkat's option seriously: the best 
way to fight Chaos may be to become a Troll and get access to Kyger Litor's 
Counterchaos rune spell.  "He who fights monsters, becomes a monster," and 
all that jazz.  Takes a Storm Bully to think it makes sense (mind you, 
Trolls do get neat beer-guts built-in...).

That's all for now,

Nick Brooke

---------------------

~From: tzunder@cix.compulink.co.uk (Tom Zunder)
~Subject: RQ2 Sartar map
Message-ID: 
~Date: 28 Apr 93 08:49:44 GMT


RQ2

I played RQ2 for years, I had a variety of cult members and I loved the
game. I don't dislike it's simplicity, I liked that, I do think RQ3 got
over burdened with volume, but it also made some huge steps forward.

RQ2 previous experience was crap. The fact that all RQ2 cults were
basically the same and accessed the same magic meant everyone was the same.

RQ2 was lovely but flawed, RQ3 was boring but in many ways better, RQ4
should aim to be better and lovely, with optional rules so that RQ Lite
falls out by ignoring the extra stuff. I still think the GURPS example of
Basic and Advanced Combat is a good one.

ElfQuest was really RQ3, but in a more focussed and tight publication.

I already had bought RQ3 but I would have just used Elf Quest if I hadn't
bought that second.

Anyone got Elf Quest, do they agree? (Nice game too)

Sartar

Yes Ken I can buid my own world, I have no problem with that, I've done
that for years. BUT, Sartar is a core place that we all know is Gregged,
I am not going to write my version of Sartar and then get Gregged (or
Lismeldered?).

Teshnos, Ditali, Ramalia, Heortland, Pent, Elder Wilds, Lunar Heartlands,
all these places I have no problems with what we got in WoG and away I go.

I also dream of writing something publishable, to do that in Sartar is
difficult without knowing who and what is where, in your writer's
guidelines you say "Know Glorantha Cold.."

Not that I criticise you, I think Sun County was wonderful and the basis
of my best campaign in years, I really loved River of Cradles and I await
Shadows and Dorastor with bated breath. Without the love and care you show
RQ would be dead, we all know that, thank you.

:-) SMILE It's getting better!


--------------------------------------------------------------------
                                        tzunder@cix.compulink.com.uk 
                                                   How Illuminating!
--------------------------------------------------------------------



---------------------

~From: pvanheus@cs.uct.ac.za (Peter van Heusden)
~Subject: RQ 2, other things
Message-ID: 
~Date: 28 Apr 93 12:53:01 GMT

> From: L.P.Williams@newcastle.ac.uk (L.P. Williams)
> Subject: Re: The RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 19 Apr 1993
> Message-ID: 
> Date: 27 Apr 93 12:00:29 GMT
> 
> 
> 
> Why does everyone berate RQ2 for its simplicity. That's its charm. As for everyones
> just the same they're not. It's the flavour of RQ2 that made it so popular. Each
> cult is different in its identity. Similar? so are Christianity, Juadism ,
> Islam, etc... . All the cults live in the same world and they're worshippers
> have essencially the same requirements.

I do not berate RQ2 for its simplicity. IMHO it has holes... I'm sorry, but
I find the RQ2 books no pleasure to read, I find the skill catagory mods
unrealistic, and I don't like the fact that everything is defined in terms
of Glorantha. (Consider that here (South Africa) RuneQuest costs a sizeable
amount, and the Gloranthan supplements are simply unavailable. Anyway, no
system should be restricted to one world.)

As for simplicity, IMHO, RQ3 is simple. Of course, my gaming history has
been AD&D->Rolemaster->RuneQuest. I have said before and I say again that
I managed to run a RQ3 demo game with one set of dice so fast that my 
players barely noticed the mechanics. So, what's the problem? (And I am
by no means an experienced DM)

> 
>  On RQ2's saleability- Ever noticed how many   
> 
>         Wanted RQ2 supplements ....
> 
>                                             adds you see knocking about. 
No. Ever noticed how many "Wanted Glorantan supplements" you see.

> 
>  If you want a realistic game then buy Harnmaster it's as good as you get.
> 
>  Ir you want a game that is versatile with more flavour than a garlic sausage
> pizza then play RQ2.

Play RQ 3.5 (my version)
> 
>  I have read RQ4 draft and although it is an improvement on RQ3 it is over
> complicated. The charm of RQ2 was the single goal- Further your chosen religion
Here I agree. I can't get to grips with RQ4.
> (and kill trolls -whoops racial hatred! Try taking the garden yer wimps!!)
> Not all this profession rubbish. Rolemaster springs to mind. Yuck!!

'scuse me? And what if I don't want to be a religous bigot? If this was the
real point of RQ, I would not play it. Religious warefare is too real for
me. The point of RQ is fantasy. Fantasy to a certain extent emulates reality.
Reality has professions - you need to do some work. Anyway, they are only
starting skill sets.

Peter

> From: dickmj@essex.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 26 Apr 1993, part 1
> Message-ID: <9304271145.AA02320@serdlm1>
> Date: 27 Apr 93 11:45:20 GMT
> 
>  I noticed a lot of talk about large scale battles recently in the
> digest. Well I'm currently trying to rig together a RQ Mass Combat
> system. It's sort of like WarHammer, but don't let that put you off!!!
> 
>  Anyway, if anyone is interested in helping me playtest this or if
> anyone out there has got a system of their own, please drop us a line.
> Or better still, how's about discussing it on the digest?
> 
> The only TRUTH is DEATH
> 
> -Arganth
> 

As I've said in private mail, this is a good idea, IMHO.

Peter

*******************************************************************************
Peter van Heusden         One man one newsfeed
CS3, UCT, Cape Town, RSA  "How fast are you? How dense?"
pvanheus@cs.uct.ac.za                              - Rudy Rucker



---------------------

~From: ICECW@asuvm.inre.asu.edu
~Subject: Cults of Prax question
Message-ID: <01GXJBSBQTUQ90MVN7@asu.edu>
~Date: 28 Apr 93 00:19:41 GMT

This may not be the right place for this question, but why does the
original Cults of Prax come with two different covers?  I have one with
a map and the title in big red letters on the cover, and one with a
picture of man and a woman and an ape-thing (baboon?) on a white back-
ground.  Likewise with Snakepipe Hollow.  I have one with a full-color
cover with a broo on it, and one with a white cover and colored pencil
drawing of a different broo?

Anybody have any insight?  Which are the more rare?  Anyway, I have been
monitoring the discussion about which version of RQ is best, and I thought
I'd add my two cents!

I love RQ2--it's simple, it's nifty, it's elegant, and most importantly,
it's PLAYABLE!

I've tried to understand RQ3 for years, but it just doesn't appeal to me
or make sense!

RQ4--I don't know!  I read the new modifications, but they seem to be
attempting to improve a system I don't have much faith in.

So, to AH and Chaosium, publish what you want, reprint what you want,
but as for myself (and it seems many others :-), we'll play RQ2!

******************************************************************
icecw@asuacad  or
icecw@asuvm.inre.asu.edu

I don't know.
******************************************************************

---------------------

~From: seh0@aberystwyth.ac.uk
~Subject: Answering a few questions on Cernein
Message-ID: <9304281356.AA22086@deca.aber.ac.uk>
~Date: 28 Apr 93 15:56:45 GMT


To Tom Zunder:  About Cernein having a Rune Priesthood

Cernein fills the role of the protector of the forest.  To this end, the 
cult has a Rune Lord category to protect against invasion and artificial
destruction of the forest.  Against this, there is also the element whereby
the Rune Priesthood protects the forest from natural ravages.  The Priests
maintain the forest, expand the groves, etc.

As for development to RQ3/4....at the moment, time does not allow me to try
and convert them, maybe in June.

To someone I forgot the name of:  About the Wild Hunt

I simply took the name from Celtic mythology, there really wasn't anything
more to it than that.  The Hunt might be a better term to avoid confusion
with Gagarth, I guess, but I wouldn't like to suggest that my own surname
should be immortalised in Gloranthan history :->

To Henk Langeveld:  The suggestion about installing the cults somewhere is
noted, and I have no objections.  As I said, it was a big mail.  However, 
I'll be adding more stuff in time, and I would like that to go through the
Digest as well as being installed somewhere, OK?  Mail me on the subject, 
do you want me to re-send the material, or whatever.....hope to hear from 
you soon.

To the rest of the world:  Buffalo

Stephen M Hunt
Better Red Than Dead