From runequest Wed May 5 12:26:30 1993
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From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 04 May 1993, part 1
Precedence: junk
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This is the automated Daily RuneQuest Digest.
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---------------------
~From: eco0kkn@cabell.vcu.edu (Kirsten K. Niemann)
~Subject: On "double Entry"
Message-ID: <9305031629.AA14938@cabell.vcu.edu>
~Date: 3 May 93 16:29:22 GMT
Paul Reilly (sp) suggested in Monday's digest that the Lunar Etyries
cult uses double entry bookkeeping "du to the lunar love of duplicate
records."
Now, I am no accountant, but I do know that double entry bookkeeping
is a lot more complex and significant thna just keeping two copies of
everything.
Double entry bookkeeping is the BIG STATE SECRET that allowed the
Hanseatic League of the late medieveal period to dominate european
trade with tremendous monopolies.
Double Entry bookkeeping is a major tool in a government's ability to
control trade, money, and people. Without it, exchequers must relyu
on simple ledger bookkeeping, which simply cannot be audited in any
true detail With ledgers, it is very easy to "cook the books", making
it impossible for an authority to really control the flow of money (
and therefore, to a great extent, power) in a country.
I STRENUOUSLY object to the idea that ANY organization in Glorantha
currently uses double entry bookkeeping. Reread the Glorantha Book
intro about levels of organization--the societies are not taht
developed, not that capable of controlling the flow of resources.
D.E.B. is another example of things from the modern world that
someone might try to sneak into Glorantha without thinking of the
repercussions. It reminds me of an austrailian con scenario submitted
to AH. It took place at the "First National Bank of Glamour." What a
ridiculous idea.
I suppose the Jrusteli might have had D.E. Bookkeeping.
Do you think that Malkion prohibits the lending of money at interest?
Makes for some interesting political and economic situations.
NOT from Kirsten, From Mike Dawson
m ><
---------------------
~From: timp@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Tim Posney)
~Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 03 May 1993, part 1
Message-ID: <199305032228.AA25616@extra.ucc.su.OZ.AU>
~Date: 4 May 93 18:28:07 GMT
>From: peterw@computer-science.manchester.ac.uk (Peter Wake)
>Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 01 May 1993, part 1
>Message-ID: <9305012231.AA28954@r2.cs.man.ac.uk>
>Date: 1 May 93 22:31:37 GMT
>
>At first I found it hard to believe that RoC had sold poorly.
>Why? Because every shop I know that got copies in sold out of them in
>a the first two days. Virgin in Manchester sold out very fast. I had
>to get my copy from a friend who lives in Stoke.
>
>However none of these shops seem to be reordering so I guess that is
>why sales are bad. Virgin sold out and they haven't had any more.
>They don't seem to realise that they could be selling this product.
>I think RoC would sell if it were in the shops. If it hadn't been for
>TotRM/this list I wouldn't know it existed.
We have seen exactly the same thing is Australia. Exactly one shop
in sydney carried copies of RoC and SC and about two of each. When they ran
out they did not intend to restock. I had to special order mine, I only
new it existed because of the digest. King of Sartar has been on back order
for 2 months now. Our military gaming shop no longer carries runequest
material, but will special order it.
I think the poor sales of the modules represents an accumulated lack of
interest in Runequest by the general gaming public. Moduels like this will
increase interest but will take time. As an aside, even if the modules
are available it won't do much good since so few shops have the rules in stock.
As for getting glorantha and GoG good luck. I think AH should target
making sure that the complete range is available, since being able to buy
entry level scenarios is not much use if the rules are not available.
regards tim
---------------------
~From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
~Subject: Etyries Feedback, and Yanafal too
Message-ID: <930503224101_100270.337_BHB64-1@CompuServe.COM>
~Date: 3 May 93 22:41:01 GMT
I was amused by Paul (?)'s suggestions for the Etyries Exchequer, and the
reversal of black and red ink in Lunar merchants' accounts. But the author
seems to be missing out on something when he lays down the law about how
Etyries merchants must behave. See, one of the "advantages" the Lunars get
from Illumination (and which is thus present in all their cults) is the
possibility of cynically debasing their ostensible morals for personal
gain. Take Yanafal Tarnils, whose Humakti-style Oath spells can in fact be
broken safely through a ceremony known to high-ranking Scimitars of the
cult. It's not supposed to happen, but it does. Etyries would similarly
let a trader defraud provincials if (s)he thought it worth the risk of
getting caught. Sure, most don't. Irrippi Ontor's Ministry of Truth may
even have written a book saying how honest all Lunar merchants are. But
would you believe it? (And that shows you that Irrippi Ontor has the same
opt-out clause!).
On the subject of Yanafal Tarnils, scimitars and other swords: Duke Yanafal
Tarnils, the cult founder, was a renegade Carmanian Humakti. We can assume
that at some point (during the Seven Mothers' Resurrection ritual??) he
incurred the wrath of Swordbreaker, the Humakti spirit of retribution.
This explains why the preferred weapon of the Lunar wargod is the scimitar:
Humakt cannot shatter scimitars, only straight-bladed swords. The scimitar
is the "bent Death" -- not the straight-sided, two-edged Death of the True
Humakti Way.
This tells us something about Humakti (who must *hate* scimitars: no
Humakti could take one as a cult weapon without real trouble explaining it
away; Humakti Truesword wouldn't work on a curved blade; etc.), and
something about the Yanafal Tarnils cult's choice of weapons. They usually
behave like good Humakti, so perhaps it's only when they repeat their
Founder's "sin" that the Wrath of God hits them. I'd say a Yanafali
swordsman was OK (no problems using straight-bladed swords) until he was
first Resurrected: thereafter he would be plagued by the Swordbreaker and
have no choice but to "switch blades" in time-honoured fashion. Allows any
PC Yanafali still using old-fashioned weapons to hang onto them for a time,
but the Lunar Way (as always) will triumph in the end.
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY!
(a Lunar slogan seen in Glamour*)
Nick Brooke
*(+1% to Nysalor Illumination chance for comprehension)
---------------------
~From: DO9EA00@sysa.computing-services.manchester-metropolitan-university.ac.uk
~Subject: Being Gregged!
Message-ID: <9305040806.AA16110@Sun.COM>
~Date: 4 May 93 07:04:17 GMT
On the subject of being "Gregged".
In that excelent series of books "Theives World" (and also in the scenario
pack) the point is made again and again that apparent differences and
incosistancies between the stories are not bad management on behalf of the
editors but reflect the point that if five people witness a given event then
in the end their will be five (or six) conflicting views on what actually
happened.
Do not run scared of being "Gregged". If you say the king of sartar has a
beard and greg says no, what have you lost.
I do not make this point in an attempt to be irreverant or anything. I
played for over a year in an excelent RQII campaing set in Dorastor, bassed
upon the somewhat sketchy information in CoT. We trekked across the edges
of Dorastor in an attempt to reach Arkats last tower....
The scenario involved a cult write up for Arkat, a completely fabricated
socio/political situation in dorastor and evil plans by Ralzakark and his
agents (finally thwaughted).
The same GM also ran a sucessfull postal wargame under the same setting for
about two years. As such both he and I are somewhat expert on our version of
Dorastor. However we both eagerly await the (TRUTH) about dorastor.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Ingram
- "Its an ill wind that spoils the broth"
---------------------
~From: ade@insignia.co.uk (Adrian Brownlow)
~Subject: RQ on CD ROM
Message-ID: <21462.9305040951@piglet.insignia.co.uk>
~Date: 4 May 93 02:51:18 GMT
Mail*Link(r) SMTP RQ on CD ROM
Adam Reynolds writes :
> There is one big big big problem with CD-ROM, the cost of the machines that
> are needed to use them.
Yeah, valid point, but I wasn't suggesting CD as a replacment for books - an
addition.
> There would also be a problem with it's flexibility.
> Do you go to your club/place of RQ worship and bring your PC with you?
Er.... Well sometimes I take one of the Macs, but I never take any rules with
me.
> Get real.
Nah, I live in a fantasy world.
> If AH are going to release something, a battle simulator for RQ
> battles would be better, so that a GM could quite happily accurately move
> people around a play area, but then again that's also a lot of effort which
> is quite happily taken care of by simple grid maps and lead figures.
RQ as a wargame?!!???
Stephen M Hunt writes :
> Err....if Sun County and River of Cradles aren't selling well as books that
> anyone can use, how likely is it that they will make enough money selling
> CD-Rom with gear on it to an even more limited market?
Very unlikely - I'm an idealist.
> If I was working at AH, I wouldn't touch the idea with a barge-pole.
You & me both.
Charles C. Fu writes :
> Adrian Brownlow said that he thought that having rules on CD-ROM would be
good
> "as long as thereis[sic] a version for the Mac", :-) although he, and I
suspect
> most others, could make do if there weren't. Are Mac CD-ROMs incompatible
with
> PCs?
Well format wise they are, but the supplied programs to access the data
generally arn't. However there is a wonderfull product for the mac called
SoftPC which allows you to run the PC software and access PC CDs on the Mac.
Its made by a company called, erm... Insignia.
> Seriously, however, I would not make a CD-ROM if I were AH. It's just too
> open to abuse.
What kind of abuse? I suppose you could print off multiple copies of the
rules... I wouldn't really want to do that though. What you could do is edit in
your own errata - it really would become a players system then.
William C Robertson writes :
> RuneQuest needs more exposure, people need to know about
> Glorantha and how great it is. I'm talking about REAL advertising, not
> advertinsing in an Avalon Hill house magazine. Think about it, spend the
> money.
Yes RQ needs exposure but is pouring cash into advertising really the way?
Advertising is very hit and miss and tends to be very country specific. Over
there the states is a huge market and I suspect you'll get away with putting a
couple of ads in one or two of your major mags. In europe you've got to
advertise seperatly in each country to get any kind of response.
There is a way to raise the level of awarness of glorantha which was used to
hype D&D that is to write fantasy novels about it. Look how much interest the
Dragon Lance books generated in D&D, a couple of GOOD books set in glorantha
which gave a real feel for the place should create the kind of interest we need
ie new, young players. (Obviously you'd have to get a decent author). By the
way I'm not suggesting a Gloranthan Dragon Lance because they were bloody awful
- they should be aimed at people with a reading age of >3.
Ade
---------------------
~From: ade@insignia.co.uk (Adrian Brownlow)
~Subject: Elf Reproduction
Message-ID: <22104.9305041126@piglet.insignia.co.uk>
~Date: 4 May 93 04:37:29 GMT
Mail*Link(r) SMTP Elf Reproduction
How do elves reproduce?
---------------------
~From: P.A.Snow@gdr.bath.ac.uk (P A Snow)
~Subject: Selling RQ/Glorantha
Message-ID: <9305041407.AA08914@Sun.COM>
~Date: 4 May 93 14:06:15 GMT
I want to make a few comments along the lines of those made yesterday,
1/5/93, by Tom Zunder and Peter Wake. This also follows up comments made some
time ago by a player who like me was new to RQ and Glorantha.
I think that in order to promote the long term interests of RQ that the
subscribers to this list should think about the best way to sell RQ to the
current roleplaying market not to people like themselves who are already long
term fans of the system. In fact, I think that the tone of the discussion in
this group has at times been very self-serving when the expertise from this
group should be used to help develop the long time future of RQ. Altruistic
input that brings in new players soon and thereby builds up the fan base could
eventually reap the rewards of reprinted material that so many of you current
players seek.
Here are some thoughts on what is needed. Firstly, I would suggest that RQ
set in Glorantha is currently quite hard to "get" as a game environment. I
suspect that many people here will not believe this but lets assume it for the
sake of this discussion. Personally, I am fortunate to have been illuminated
by discussions with GS at Convulsion '92 so I have a feel of what Glorantha is
all about, how the world works and the issues being discussed. ( I went to
Convulsion as a C of C player only). But I find that if I read RQ3, GofG,
Genertala etc very few parts of this tell me about the desired feel of
Glorantha. Clearly, What My Father Told Me and What the Priest Told Me are the
brilliant exceptions to this but there is not enough material like this.
Additionally the hard facts that I need to use as reference on the general
Gloranthan background are also widely dispersed as I know readers of this group
are aware.
It seems to me that there are two ways to introduce background into any
game. There is "hard" technical background and there is atmospheric getting the
feel of it background that I will refer to as "soft" background. Now the desire
in this group for a large, comprehensive cults write up without any adventures
etc. is an appeal for a lot of hard background. I understand why you want this
because as a player of Empire of The Petal Throne I found that once I
understood the feel of Tekumel the S&G background books that are all just
background were invaluable. However, this information was not being fully used
or understood until I got the feel for Tekumel from reading the recent
Adventures On Tekumel books. These books are full of soft background in
passages that are descriptions of walking round a city, going shopping and
going to a Temple etc. (The overall structure is a solo adventure that you use
to generate a character). This soft background is used well to draw the reader
into experiencing the game world and sells the world to a new player. The bad
news for people who want a book just of cult write ups is that I can not
imagine this ever converting a player to RQ if he browsed through it in a game
shop (if it ever got into the shop) so it can be of little use if the point of
current RQ products is to lead to a RQ renaissance.
If you apply these ideas on background and look at the marketing of
Vampire and the content of the rulebook then you realise that Vampire is riding
on a wave of soft background that sells the game. I have seen several reports
that the rules are intrinsically broken but people don't care because they are
too busy enjoying the feel of the game. (This also sheds an interesting light
on the RQ2 v RQ3 v RQIV argument and being gregged). Clearly, this soft
background includes the artwork and so I agree with the necessity for good
artwork. In fact perhaps a test for artwork should be in which way does this
enhance the background. Personally I don't mind average artwork that imparts
hard background but there is nothing worse than poor art that has no hard or
soft content.
So what is my conclusion? RQ/Glorantha has to find a way to sell its feel
in a new wave of soft background that is as least as good as the previous
highlights of "What My Father Told Me" etc. This digest/group is the right type
of environment to generate the ideas on how to do this. I hope that you/we can
do it.
Finally. If you think I'm talking rubbish , well you could be right. But
I've been roleplaying for years and I want to enjoy RQ and Glorantha and that
is why I read this group. I am an easy convert but I am finding the process
difficult. Remember though that there are a lot of young cyberpunk/D&D fans
out there that don't even want to play RQ. They have to be the audience that RQ
finally converts if it is not to remain in the doldrums on the back shelf in
games shops.
---------------------
~From: seh0@aberystwyth.ac.uk
~Subject: Many many things
Message-ID: <9305041341.AA03511@deca.aber.ac.uk>
~Date: 4 May 93 15:41:19 GMT
Firstly, to Paul: I'm interested in any new cult details. I figure the more
information I have available, the more I can throw at my players.
Secondly, about the copy of Trollpak at DunDraCon....$20, huh? And no-one
bought it? Hell, I'd still buy it if I was offered it here for #20....
Third, I agree with many of the comments supplied by Rob. RQ3 really did
divide the RQ world. I still plough on with RQ2, often offering the comment
"Well that's RQ3, not RQ2." to players who point something out, and then
sitting down and going to work on it myself. As for a consistent history
between campaigns, I'm afraid my campaign is out of step, operating from the
Free Kingdom of Sartar, lines of battle drawn around Jonstown, and the party
currently undertaking The Taking of Corflu....an adventure which I can make
available to people who might be interested. Mail me on the subject, I'll
see what I can do.
But RQ3 and Gloranthan consistency still nags. I do want to be supported by
new products, and I now do buy them, thanks to stuff like RoC and more
especially Sun County. River of Cradles didn't appeal as much. There was
too much reprint information, in a format not as nice as the original (opinion)
and the adventure is far too linear for my liking. The bit of the adventure I
liked the most was the pre-generated characters, as their background info did
illuminate (Tell me another riddle....grin). My own campaign swings freely
around, ranging from Pavis to
Griffin Mountain to Sartar to The Rankan Empire (hastily added to include
Thieves' World) and it takes work. RQ3 put me off for a long time. I think
it's now beginning to get itself together, and I'm now using stuff. I hope
it continues
Anyway, s'long for now.
SMH
Better Red Than Dead