From runequest Wed May 5 12:26:30 1993 From news@glorantha Tue May 4 17:17:00 1993 Return-Path:Received: from Holland.Sun.COM (sunnl) by homeland.Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04966; Tue, 4 May 93 17:16:59 +0200 Received: from glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM by Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1e) id AA26866; Tue, 4 May 93 17:16:10 +0200 Received: by glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA27643; Tue, 4 May 93 17:15:20 +0200 Date: Tue, 4 May 93 17:15:20 +0200 Message-Id: <9305041515.AA27643@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM> From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 04 May 1993, part 1 Precedence: junk Status: O This is the automated Daily RuneQuest Digest. Send submissions only to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM", they will automatically be included in a next issue. Try to change the ~Subject: line from the default Re: RuneQuest Daily... on replying. Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest. If you want to submit articles to the Digest only, contact the editor at RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM. -Henk Langeveld -- Send Submissions to: Enquiries to: The RuneQuest Daily is a spin-off of the RuneQuest Digest and deals with the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. Maintainer: Henk.Langeveld@Sun.COM --------------------- ~From: eco0kkn@cabell.vcu.edu (Kirsten K. Niemann) ~Subject: On "double Entry" Message-ID: <9305031629.AA14938@cabell.vcu.edu> ~Date: 3 May 93 16:29:22 GMT Paul Reilly (sp) suggested in Monday's digest that the Lunar Etyries cult uses double entry bookkeeping "du to the lunar love of duplicate records." Now, I am no accountant, but I do know that double entry bookkeeping is a lot more complex and significant thna just keeping two copies of everything. Double entry bookkeeping is the BIG STATE SECRET that allowed the Hanseatic League of the late medieveal period to dominate european trade with tremendous monopolies. Double Entry bookkeeping is a major tool in a government's ability to control trade, money, and people. Without it, exchequers must relyu on simple ledger bookkeeping, which simply cannot be audited in any true detail With ledgers, it is very easy to "cook the books", making it impossible for an authority to really control the flow of money ( and therefore, to a great extent, power) in a country. I STRENUOUSLY object to the idea that ANY organization in Glorantha currently uses double entry bookkeeping. Reread the Glorantha Book intro about levels of organization--the societies are not taht developed, not that capable of controlling the flow of resources. D.E.B. is another example of things from the modern world that someone might try to sneak into Glorantha without thinking of the repercussions. It reminds me of an austrailian con scenario submitted to AH. It took place at the "First National Bank of Glamour." What a ridiculous idea. I suppose the Jrusteli might have had D.E. Bookkeeping. Do you think that Malkion prohibits the lending of money at interest? Makes for some interesting political and economic situations. NOT from Kirsten, From Mike Dawson m >< --------------------- ~From: timp@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Tim Posney) ~Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 03 May 1993, part 1 Message-ID: <199305032228.AA25616@extra.ucc.su.OZ.AU> ~Date: 4 May 93 18:28:07 GMT >From: peterw@computer-science.manchester.ac.uk (Peter Wake) >Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 01 May 1993, part 1 >Message-ID: <9305012231.AA28954@r2.cs.man.ac.uk> >Date: 1 May 93 22:31:37 GMT > >At first I found it hard to believe that RoC had sold poorly. >Why? Because every shop I know that got copies in sold out of them in >a the first two days. Virgin in Manchester sold out very fast. I had >to get my copy from a friend who lives in Stoke. > >However none of these shops seem to be reordering so I guess that is >why sales are bad. Virgin sold out and they haven't had any more. >They don't seem to realise that they could be selling this product. >I think RoC would sell if it were in the shops. If it hadn't been for >TotRM/this list I wouldn't know it existed. We have seen exactly the same thing is Australia. Exactly one shop in sydney carried copies of RoC and SC and about two of each. When they ran out they did not intend to restock. I had to special order mine, I only new it existed because of the digest. King of Sartar has been on back order for 2 months now. Our military gaming shop no longer carries runequest material, but will special order it. I think the poor sales of the modules represents an accumulated lack of interest in Runequest by the general gaming public. Moduels like this will increase interest but will take time. As an aside, even if the modules are available it won't do much good since so few shops have the rules in stock. As for getting glorantha and GoG good luck. I think AH should target making sure that the complete range is available, since being able to buy entry level scenarios is not much use if the rules are not available. regards tim --------------------- ~From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke) ~Subject: Etyries Feedback, and Yanafal too Message-ID: <930503224101_100270.337_BHB64-1@CompuServe.COM> ~Date: 3 May 93 22:41:01 GMT I was amused by Paul (?)'s suggestions for the Etyries Exchequer, and the reversal of black and red ink in Lunar merchants' accounts. But the author seems to be missing out on something when he lays down the law about how Etyries merchants must behave. See, one of the "advantages" the Lunars get from Illumination (and which is thus present in all their cults) is the possibility of cynically debasing their ostensible morals for personal gain. Take Yanafal Tarnils, whose Humakti-style Oath spells can in fact be broken safely through a ceremony known to high-ranking Scimitars of the cult. It's not supposed to happen, but it does. Etyries would similarly let a trader defraud provincials if (s)he thought it worth the risk of getting caught. Sure, most don't. Irrippi Ontor's Ministry of Truth may even have written a book saying how honest all Lunar merchants are. But would you believe it? (And that shows you that Irrippi Ontor has the same opt-out clause!). On the subject of Yanafal Tarnils, scimitars and other swords: Duke Yanafal Tarnils, the cult founder, was a renegade Carmanian Humakti. We can assume that at some point (during the Seven Mothers' Resurrection ritual??) he incurred the wrath of Swordbreaker, the Humakti spirit of retribution. This explains why the preferred weapon of the Lunar wargod is the scimitar: Humakt cannot shatter scimitars, only straight-bladed swords. The scimitar is the "bent Death" -- not the straight-sided, two-edged Death of the True Humakti Way. This tells us something about Humakti (who must *hate* scimitars: no Humakti could take one as a cult weapon without real trouble explaining it away; Humakti Truesword wouldn't work on a curved blade; etc.), and something about the Yanafal Tarnils cult's choice of weapons. They usually behave like good Humakti, so perhaps it's only when they repeat their Founder's "sin" that the Wrath of God hits them. I'd say a Yanafali swordsman was OK (no problems using straight-bladed swords) until he was first Resurrected: thereafter he would be plagued by the Swordbreaker and have no choice but to "switch blades" in time-honoured fashion. Allows any PC Yanafali still using old-fashioned weapons to hang onto them for a time, but the Lunar Way (as always) will triumph in the end. FREEDOM IS SLAVERY! (a Lunar slogan seen in Glamour*) Nick Brooke *(+1% to Nysalor Illumination chance for comprehension) --------------------- ~From: DO9EA00@sysa.computing-services.manchester-metropolitan-university.ac.uk ~Subject: Being Gregged! Message-ID: <9305040806.AA16110@Sun.COM> ~Date: 4 May 93 07:04:17 GMT On the subject of being "Gregged". In that excelent series of books "Theives World" (and also in the scenario pack) the point is made again and again that apparent differences and incosistancies between the stories are not bad management on behalf of the editors but reflect the point that if five people witness a given event then in the end their will be five (or six) conflicting views on what actually happened. Do not run scared of being "Gregged". If you say the king of sartar has a beard and greg says no, what have you lost. I do not make this point in an attempt to be irreverant or anything. I played for over a year in an excelent RQII campaing set in Dorastor, bassed upon the somewhat sketchy information in CoT. We trekked across the edges of Dorastor in an attempt to reach Arkats last tower.... The scenario involved a cult write up for Arkat, a completely fabricated socio/political situation in dorastor and evil plans by Ralzakark and his agents (finally thwaughted). The same GM also ran a sucessfull postal wargame under the same setting for about two years. As such both he and I are somewhat expert on our version of Dorastor. However we both eagerly await the (TRUTH) about dorastor. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- David Ingram - "Its an ill wind that spoils the broth" --------------------- ~From: ade@insignia.co.uk (Adrian Brownlow) ~Subject: RQ on CD ROM Message-ID: <21462.9305040951@piglet.insignia.co.uk> ~Date: 4 May 93 02:51:18 GMT Mail*Link(r) SMTP RQ on CD ROM Adam Reynolds writes : > There is one big big big problem with CD-ROM, the cost of the machines that > are needed to use them. Yeah, valid point, but I wasn't suggesting CD as a replacment for books - an addition. > There would also be a problem with it's flexibility. > Do you go to your club/place of RQ worship and bring your PC with you? Er.... Well sometimes I take one of the Macs, but I never take any rules with me. > Get real. Nah, I live in a fantasy world. > If AH are going to release something, a battle simulator for RQ > battles would be better, so that a GM could quite happily accurately move > people around a play area, but then again that's also a lot of effort which > is quite happily taken care of by simple grid maps and lead figures. RQ as a wargame?!!??? Stephen M Hunt writes : > Err....if Sun County and River of Cradles aren't selling well as books that > anyone can use, how likely is it that they will make enough money selling > CD-Rom with gear on it to an even more limited market? Very unlikely - I'm an idealist. > If I was working at AH, I wouldn't touch the idea with a barge-pole. You & me both. Charles C. Fu writes : > Adrian Brownlow said that he thought that having rules on CD-ROM would be good > "as long as thereis[sic] a version for the Mac", :-) although he, and I suspect > most others, could make do if there weren't. Are Mac CD-ROMs incompatible with > PCs? Well format wise they are, but the supplied programs to access the data generally arn't. However there is a wonderfull product for the mac called SoftPC which allows you to run the PC software and access PC CDs on the Mac. Its made by a company called, erm... Insignia. > Seriously, however, I would not make a CD-ROM if I were AH. It's just too > open to abuse. What kind of abuse? I suppose you could print off multiple copies of the rules... I wouldn't really want to do that though. What you could do is edit in your own errata - it really would become a players system then. William C Robertson writes : > RuneQuest needs more exposure, people need to know about > Glorantha and how great it is. I'm talking about REAL advertising, not > advertinsing in an Avalon Hill house magazine. Think about it, spend the > money. Yes RQ needs exposure but is pouring cash into advertising really the way? Advertising is very hit and miss and tends to be very country specific. Over there the states is a huge market and I suspect you'll get away with putting a couple of ads in one or two of your major mags. In europe you've got to advertise seperatly in each country to get any kind of response. There is a way to raise the level of awarness of glorantha which was used to hype D&D that is to write fantasy novels about it. Look how much interest the Dragon Lance books generated in D&D, a couple of GOOD books set in glorantha which gave a real feel for the place should create the kind of interest we need ie new, young players. (Obviously you'd have to get a decent author). By the way I'm not suggesting a Gloranthan Dragon Lance because they were bloody awful - they should be aimed at people with a reading age of >3. Ade --------------------- ~From: ade@insignia.co.uk (Adrian Brownlow) ~Subject: Elf Reproduction Message-ID: <22104.9305041126@piglet.insignia.co.uk> ~Date: 4 May 93 04:37:29 GMT Mail*Link(r) SMTP Elf Reproduction How do elves reproduce? --------------------- ~From: P.A.Snow@gdr.bath.ac.uk (P A Snow) ~Subject: Selling RQ/Glorantha Message-ID: <9305041407.AA08914@Sun.COM> ~Date: 4 May 93 14:06:15 GMT I want to make a few comments along the lines of those made yesterday, 1/5/93, by Tom Zunder and Peter Wake. This also follows up comments made some time ago by a player who like me was new to RQ and Glorantha. I think that in order to promote the long term interests of RQ that the subscribers to this list should think about the best way to sell RQ to the current roleplaying market not to people like themselves who are already long term fans of the system. In fact, I think that the tone of the discussion in this group has at times been very self-serving when the expertise from this group should be used to help develop the long time future of RQ. Altruistic input that brings in new players soon and thereby builds up the fan base could eventually reap the rewards of reprinted material that so many of you current players seek. Here are some thoughts on what is needed. Firstly, I would suggest that RQ set in Glorantha is currently quite hard to "get" as a game environment. I suspect that many people here will not believe this but lets assume it for the sake of this discussion. Personally, I am fortunate to have been illuminated by discussions with GS at Convulsion '92 so I have a feel of what Glorantha is all about, how the world works and the issues being discussed. ( I went to Convulsion as a C of C player only). But I find that if I read RQ3, GofG, Genertala etc very few parts of this tell me about the desired feel of Glorantha. Clearly, What My Father Told Me and What the Priest Told Me are the brilliant exceptions to this but there is not enough material like this. Additionally the hard facts that I need to use as reference on the general Gloranthan background are also widely dispersed as I know readers of this group are aware. It seems to me that there are two ways to introduce background into any game. There is "hard" technical background and there is atmospheric getting the feel of it background that I will refer to as "soft" background. Now the desire in this group for a large, comprehensive cults write up without any adventures etc. is an appeal for a lot of hard background. I understand why you want this because as a player of Empire of The Petal Throne I found that once I understood the feel of Tekumel the S&G background books that are all just background were invaluable. However, this information was not being fully used or understood until I got the feel for Tekumel from reading the recent Adventures On Tekumel books. These books are full of soft background in passages that are descriptions of walking round a city, going shopping and going to a Temple etc. (The overall structure is a solo adventure that you use to generate a character). This soft background is used well to draw the reader into experiencing the game world and sells the world to a new player. The bad news for people who want a book just of cult write ups is that I can not imagine this ever converting a player to RQ if he browsed through it in a game shop (if it ever got into the shop) so it can be of little use if the point of current RQ products is to lead to a RQ renaissance. If you apply these ideas on background and look at the marketing of Vampire and the content of the rulebook then you realise that Vampire is riding on a wave of soft background that sells the game. I have seen several reports that the rules are intrinsically broken but people don't care because they are too busy enjoying the feel of the game. (This also sheds an interesting light on the RQ2 v RQ3 v RQIV argument and being gregged). Clearly, this soft background includes the artwork and so I agree with the necessity for good artwork. In fact perhaps a test for artwork should be in which way does this enhance the background. Personally I don't mind average artwork that imparts hard background but there is nothing worse than poor art that has no hard or soft content. So what is my conclusion? RQ/Glorantha has to find a way to sell its feel in a new wave of soft background that is as least as good as the previous highlights of "What My Father Told Me" etc. This digest/group is the right type of environment to generate the ideas on how to do this. I hope that you/we can do it. Finally. If you think I'm talking rubbish , well you could be right. But I've been roleplaying for years and I want to enjoy RQ and Glorantha and that is why I read this group. I am an easy convert but I am finding the process difficult. Remember though that there are a lot of young cyberpunk/D&D fans out there that don't even want to play RQ. They have to be the audience that RQ finally converts if it is not to remain in the doldrums on the back shelf in games shops. --------------------- ~From: seh0@aberystwyth.ac.uk ~Subject: Many many things Message-ID: <9305041341.AA03511@deca.aber.ac.uk> ~Date: 4 May 93 15:41:19 GMT Firstly, to Paul: I'm interested in any new cult details. I figure the more information I have available, the more I can throw at my players. Secondly, about the copy of Trollpak at DunDraCon....$20, huh? And no-one bought it? Hell, I'd still buy it if I was offered it here for #20.... Third, I agree with many of the comments supplied by Rob. RQ3 really did divide the RQ world. I still plough on with RQ2, often offering the comment "Well that's RQ3, not RQ2." to players who point something out, and then sitting down and going to work on it myself. As for a consistent history between campaigns, I'm afraid my campaign is out of step, operating from the Free Kingdom of Sartar, lines of battle drawn around Jonstown, and the party currently undertaking The Taking of Corflu....an adventure which I can make available to people who might be interested. Mail me on the subject, I'll see what I can do. But RQ3 and Gloranthan consistency still nags. I do want to be supported by new products, and I now do buy them, thanks to stuff like RoC and more especially Sun County. River of Cradles didn't appeal as much. There was too much reprint information, in a format not as nice as the original (opinion) and the adventure is far too linear for my liking. The bit of the adventure I liked the most was the pre-generated characters, as their background info did illuminate (Tell me another riddle....grin). My own campaign swings freely around, ranging from Pavis to Griffin Mountain to Sartar to The Rankan Empire (hastily added to include Thieves' World) and it takes work. RQ3 put me off for a long time. I think it's now beginning to get itself together, and I'm now using stuff. I hope it continues Anyway, s'long for now. SMH Better Red Than Dead