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Date: Thu, 3 Jun 93 17:15:50 +0200
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From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 03 Jun 1993, part 3
Precedence: junk
Status: O
The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.
Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM",
they will automatically be included in a next issue. Try to change the
Subject: line from the default Re: RuneQuest Daily... on replying.
Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest. If you
want to submit articles to the Digest only, contact the editor at
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Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor:
RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld)
---------------------
From: S.Phillips@Glasgow.UK.AC
Subject: General Rant. I Love RuneQuest..
Message-ID: <_2_Jun_93_17:26:08_A10042@UK.AC.GLA.VME>
Date: 2 Jun 93 16:26:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 930
Hello from Sam Phillips.
Campaign Settings, RuneQuest, Glorantha, Gygax! & Love.
-------------------------------------------------------
Our campaign has predominantly been based around Dragon
Pass, Sartar, Prax & Pavis. We spent a short while in
Balazaar but found it a bit on the grim side and so left.
We started in Apple Lane over ten years ago. I played a
Issaries Centaur Trader (We didn't realise how
uncivilised they were then!). This caused a few problems
when it came to getting lodgings etc. I spent a lot of
nights in barns, days standing outside pubs, hours doing
deals through shop windows, minutes before I was asked to
leave as I was putting the locals off their beer. Still
it was fun and it had its up-points (kicking the
Johnstown Barracks doors in for one!). These were the
salad days of Runequest II when all we had was a scrappy
copy of the rule book, a treasured copy of Cults of Prax,
the old pamphlet that was Apple Lane and a lot of
photocopies of Harry's old GM's notes from when he played
in Dublin the year before (Including his version of
Johnstown -- with Y-shaped Lankhor Mhy temple).
Trollpack hit us like a thermo-nuclear blast. And
suddenly a new realism took us. We ditched a couple of
power-players who we no longer saw eye-to-eye with and
set off into Dagori-Inkarth. Many splendid adventures
followed.
With the arrival of borderlands we set off across Prax.
To seek fame & fortune.. Pavis Pack, Big Rubble, all
served to keep us in this neck of the woods. Then back to
a grimmer more realistic Sartar where we became freedom
fighters complete with a secret hide out. Then, our
bought adventures all played out (or those that fitted
with the campaign) and our GM a little tired of making
his own storylines up (you can only play the Robin Hood
scenario so many times before becoming thoroughly sick
with it), we were badgered into heading to Balazaar. It
meant new characters for most of us but it seemed about
time we retired some of our big guns. Balazaar was grim
though. It seemed to lack the colour and excitement of
Prax and by now was a little old fashioned compared to
what we had taken on board since.
Thus the big guns came out of retirement, went into
Snakepipe Hollow (finally) where they met their allied
spirits and finally became RuneLords/Priests. Then back
to Pavis where trouble was brewing. Then the Cradle
adventure. Which we thought was *splendid*. The
atmosphere especially captured some of the feelings that
I hadn't felt since I first started playing or at least
since playing Borderlands. Real tears of emotion were
spilled by players over this - not seen since Dane was
killed (Borderlands) - not counting player character
deaths (few, actually, in 10yrs play).
Then retirement again.. The big RQ void had returned. No
new adventures, no new packs. Nuffin..
So we gave up Runequesting. And it was shelved for years
while we took on new and wonderful games that had arisen
only because of but had in many respects surpassed our
humble RQ. Cthulu, Vikings, Twilight2000, StarWars,
CyberPunk etc. We played them all - trying to regain some
of the magic we had lost. We didn't. In fact none of them
had the sheer charm and satisfaction of RQ. TW2000 was as
grim as hell. 4 or 5 times as grim as Balazaar. Vikings
was limited by the material. Call of Cthulu is held back
by the subject matter too - you can't really get to know
and love your characters as they will be bumped off soon,
and there is also the big - 'what the hell are we doing'
aspect of it - you pretend you don't know what you are
investigating - but at the same time you can't walk away
in disbelief (like anyone normal would) because it would
ruin the game. So you walk in like headless chickens -
see something horrid, then go mad and die.
RQ has purpose. In RQ you can explore yourself as well as
Glorantha. RQ cults were the best thing that ever
happened to RPG's. They stopped RPG's from being Wargames
and made them into ROLE playing games. No longer were you
just striving for treasure. You had purpose. Then when it
was time to move on to another character you could
experiment with another way of life. In our first ever RQ
game we had an Issaries and a Chalana Arroy as two of the
key members of the party. We had just given up D&D and
were craving for something like RQ. Something with
FEELING.
But now we are back on the RQ wagon. Things seem to have
taken off again. RQ had returned to Glorantha and the
feeling seems to be back in it. We still haven't had
either Cults of Prax re-released or something of its
quality and depth of feeling released but I feel it won't
be long.
Hopefully a Prax pack will do this. As far as I am
concerned RQ isn't a game about stats and spells, strike
ranks and weapon lengths. It is a ROLE playing game where
what matters is the depth of background and role-play
opportunities offered. Gods of Glorantha was great for
GM's as was the other new RQ packs. The content was wide
ranging, vague and contained a hell of a lot of info. But
for players it was of little use. The cults in COP
contains enough different Cults to suit players of all
types from the power-monger to the peaceful-underdog. But
what was needed was the cultures. They were hinted at but
never filled out.
TrollPack did this - For trolls. Another GM pack
unfortunately being none of us were playing a troll at
this time.
But this is what we need. A troll pack for players about
Gloranthan people. With descriptions of the towns, the
tribes, the cultures. What you would know if you were a
praxian or a sartarian. COP told us what you would
believe but very little about who you are.
Who ARE the Lunar?. What do they want?. Do I know about
Giants, or elves?. How do I fear Chaos?. How do I respect
a Storm Buller?. Where would I never go?. Who are the
ordinary people who stay at home?. How unusual am I that
I have left home and gone wandering?.. Do I know all the
other cults listed in GoG? Do I know all about magic? The
spells and their names? What do I wear?... etc.
I would be nice, wouldn't it.
But I am rambling. This started off as a little
description of our campaign and has ended up as an
outpouring of pent up emotion. -- You see I love
RuneQuest. I loved it from the beginning. We had a trial
separation but we soon realised that we needed each
other. Yes, I know I slept around a bit - but I was
looking for gratification - not love. I had love already.
But now there is talk of a RQIV. And I have seen it. And
yes It's quite good. In places it is very good. In places
it isn't. But then so were RQII & RQIII. I appreciate the
time that people have put into it. I rejoice that people
still have such passion about RQ to be undertaking such a
project.
But do we need RQIV. Is it really desirable. Should we be
writing new rules?. EXTRA RULES?. We have loads of rules
already. Rules for nearly everything. We have shelves of
rules we have never used. But we only have one battered
old copy of Cults of prax.
Please! - stop rewriting the Rules. I know they are not
perfect. They never were. But in this search for better
rules the beauty of RuneQuest has been forgotten.
We need to sell RQ as a ROLE playing game. Something for
the WarHammer generation to aspire to when they grow up
and realise that White Dwarf was once a magazine in its
own right and that Chaos parties with goatee heads
weren't invented by Games Workshop. That Gygax! is a
swear word in another language and ...
You get my point.
RQ is, I'm sure, in good hands - the Garhound contest is
probably the BEST beginners' scenario I have ever seen.
We introduced two new players with it. They learned the
whole essence of RQ in a few game sessions. Brilliant. So
if the new stuff continues in this vain we have no
worries.
Keep lovin' RuneQuest..
Sam Phillips.
Not Scotland But Sartar. x
---------------------
From: jjm@zycor.lgc.com (johnjmedway)
Subject: ORIGINS
Message-ID: <9306022354.AA24200@hp2.zycor.lgc.com>
Date: 2 Jun 93 23:54:48 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 931
I know that there are no official RQ Events announced for Origins, but is
anyone on this list planning on going?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- - - - ---john j medway----------- - - - -
-- - - - - - - ---jmedway@zycor.lgc.com--- - - - - - - - --
--- - - - - - - ---landmark/zycor---------- - - - - - - - ---
---- - - ---512/292-2325------------ - - - ----
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------
From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: A re-send, and the Pharoah
Message-ID: <930603002427_100270.337_BHB22-4@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 3 Jun 93 00:24:28 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 932
Urgh! Sorry about that, guys!
Looks like my last mailing re: Characteristics and Runes got mangled
somewhere along the line. Might even give me a reputation for "tough
irrationality, or balance, rather than intelligence"! I'll try to summon
up my courage to rewrite it and send it again. Give me a while, though:
work's getting hectic...
Ah, I've just found it! Problem must have been on the line or at Henk's
end: my saved version's the same as ever. Here we go (a blast from the
past, for me) ---
Based on the "Birth of Aether" myth, I tried to put the stats in a
developmental order. Excuse me if I wax whimsical below. Caveat: I do not
believe there is "One True Way" and am delighted to have my theories
disputed. But nothing I've read has yet changed my mind one jot or
tittle...
Life = POW
What defines a living creature, other than that it has a POW? Life is,
after all, a Power Rune. I'd postulate other species, indeed peculiar
heroes, who could use different Runes as their source of Power, but that's
way out of my (tough-initiate level) league.
Darkness = CON (not STR)
Constitution reflects your basic health. If you're an infant in the womb,
after life you have health before you can do anything else. High CON makes
you fat (like Trolls, creatures of Darkness). Trollkin are plausibly more
"unhealthy" than weak, if I'm to argue against you on your own terms. Add
Darkness to a base human and he becomes a fat lazy slob: I've met some.
Darkness per se. has no "physicality".
Water = DEX (not CON)
The image of the eternally moving sea as the changing principle of
Glorantha inspired this one. Along with "fluid movements", "running
water", and the link in GoG between Sea deities and the Coordination spirit
spell. That's the baby moving inside you.
Earth = SIZ
"The element of solidity and definite shape. More Earth means more
material substance." We're agreed on this one. You can see the bulge in
the mother's belly by now...
Fire = INT (not APP)
One of the basic oppositions of Glorantha is between Yelmic Civilisation
and Orlanthi Barbarism. Now, I find that better simulated by the clash of
Intellect against Brute Strength, rather than that of foppish Appearance
against swift Dexterity. Lankhor Mhy's beloved is the Mistress of the
Light of Knowledge. Yelm defeats Orlanth because he knows how to behave.
Birds look lovely because they are the pinnacle of Creation: Storm-Rune
mammals followed after the perfection of the Golden Age had been broken.
You tell me, "Fire was never broken." I tell you, Orlanth killed Yelm
wielding Humakt, the Sword of Death. How badly broken can you get? The
child is born, and comes out into the light of the world. It opens its
eyes...
Air = STR (not DEX)
The primaeval Storm myth has Umath exerting his strength to rip the world
apart. Orlanth teaches the Spirit spell of Strength. If you're about to
exert yourself, you breathe deeply, filling your lungs for the effort. The
baby does this, wails loudly, and starts to break things...
Moon = nothing (not INT)
Your explanation nicely explains why there will be no Lunar characteristic
until the White Moon is healed. It does not explain why the existing moons
should have the attribute of INT. Maybe the White Moon characteristic
would be Rationality, or Balance, rather than Intelligence? But then, I
don't believe that the Lunars have *yet* added something new to all
creation, so I didn't want to put them on everyone's character sheets.
Man = APP
Appearance is a measure of whether or not you look like a perfect human
being. We know that other species have different standards of beauty,
while non-human ones are not rated for APP at all. Maybe elven APP is
based on the Plant Rune; maybe you could roll a Beast Rune APP to work out
how fine your horse looked...
_________________________
Graeme Lindsell asked me:
> Where did you find this information about the Pharoah?
Same place as Greg does, to tell the truth: I made it up, tested it, found
other people to believe in it, and then went public.
You want more detail? Well, couple the idea of Pharoah as dying-and-rising
god with what we know about his battles with the Only Old One; tie that
loosely to the Year Sons cult described in WF 9; do a round turn and two
half hitches to bring in the Esrolite feminine Earth culture -- Sacred
Queenship -- and link it to the Pharaonic masculine culture -- Sacred
Kingship -- and I thought by now it'd be obvious that the Pharoah would
have to *replace* the sacrificial Year Sons, in person. So, who's the
Queen? Nobody important, of course: just a ceremonial "May Queen"
position, if you like: consort to the Pharoah (one of the perks of the job,
perhaps).
(Incidentally, why do people assume the Pharoah treated Esrolia any better
than he treated the Shadow Plateau when he seized control in the Holy
Country? After all, who was the Only Old One's mother? We know that
Belintar stamped out the primary fertility-oriented cult of the region, and
we also know that he could do what none of the Year Sons could -- return
from the dead after being definitively slain.)
But what happens when a Lunar girl (Jar-eel's only fourteen, remember!)
insinuates herself into the ceremony? (Compare with Hon-eel in Tarsh, or
indeed Estal Donge in Sartar -- and I speak from personal experience in the
latter case!). She performs perfectly the part of the ritual where she's
supposed to kill the Pharoah, but after that he finds he can't return from
the Hell to which she's sent him (compare this with Sheng Seleris'
experience?).
Convinced, yet? Or do I have to say any more?
(There's too many parentheses in the above text!)
> Regarding Infinity: does anyone know why Flamal gets it in GoG?
> I can see why Uleria and the Invisible God do, but Flamal doesn't
> seem any more significant than many other gods.
I think it's because, like Uleria, he only really possesses the Rune he is
the master of. In this sense, it's an alternative convention to listing
that Rune twice. Uleria has Life/Love/Fertility and nothing else; Flamal
has Plant and nothing else. I know which I'd prefer to control...
__________________
Brian Hebert says:
A lot of stuff, really, none of which I can be bothered with. We are
playing a role-playing game, not moderating a computerised nightmare. Why
bother with this kind of cultural rigidity? A good description is always
worth more than a detailed character sheet: after all, how many literary
characters have you seen write-ups for? This looks like a non-starter to
me.
__________________
Joerg Baumgartner:
Thanks for watering old David; I owe you one.
> In fact, you're getting me confused about the generations:
> Asrelia is the mother of Ernalda, who in turn is mother to
> all the Grain/Land Goddesses, including Esrola.
See Greg's seminal article, "A Short Discourse on the Six Daughters of
Earth", in WF 9. We are meant to be confused by the generations of the
earth goddesses. They don't make any simple, linear sense. The myths told
about Asrelia in her youth are the same as those told about Voria now. So
this identification can "work", as much as any scheme for classifying the
unclassifiable. (I am *not* a God Learner).
____________
Paul Reilly:
"On Malkionism and the God of Time" was a very thought-provoking little
article. Allow me a while to think about this; I would hate to jump to
conclusions about something so important.
______________
Another thing:
A tetchy, antisocial note: can Baguley, Boulet, Medway, Mikey and their ilk
please find some way to turn off the irritatingly extensive logos that
appear after each of their sendings? Thanks!
====
Nick
====
Role-playing, *not* roll-playing, Brian.
---------------------
From: mace@lum.asd.sgi.com (Rob Mace)
Subject: Close Combat and Combat Sense
Message-ID: <9306030234.AA13384@lum.asd.sgi.com>
Date: 2 Jun 93 12:34:09 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 933
Arganth writes
> Close Combat
>
> What I would suggest is that weapons have 'ideal ranges' at which they
> are used; 3m, 2m, 1m and point blank. At each range, there is a
> multiplier of the weilder's attack and parry skill listed with the
> weapon with 0 indicating that the weapon can't be used - imagine trying
> to use a pike while someone is grappling with you. Most weapons rely
>
> (stuff deleted)
>
> An example of a few weapons;
>
> Weapon 3m 2m 1m PB
> Pike x1 x.5 Bt x0
> 1H sword x0 x0 x1 Bt
> Dagger x0 x0 x0 x1
> Qtr Staff x0 x1 x1 Bt
> Kite shield x1 x1 x1 x0
> Buckler x1 x1 x1 x1
>
> Comments anybody?
I have about 6 years of SCA armored combat experience. When I first started
in the SCA I started trying to simulate more and more of what I saw happening
in games. What I found is that no matter how many rules I added I was never
able to get really get the feel right and the rules just got more complex and
slower to use. Finally I just used the rules as is and gave people situational
bonuses that I made up on the fly. Anyway I will talk about some of the flaws
I see in your rule.
First, pikes can be used at Point Blank range. You simply move a hand to
near the point and use it as a short unbalanced thrusting weapon. I have
done this with a 7 foot spear many times and a pike a few times. However
if you do not choke up on the weapon as your opponent is closing you are
likely to get it trapped and then it will be useless for attack. Usually
I would carry a small mace for when I was closed on.
Your PB values are also wrong for shields. I used a short sword a lot and
usually closed with my opponent to the point that I was pushing against
them. Opponents with small shields were much worse off them opponents
with large shields. It was much easier to trap a small shield and then
thrust around it. This happens for two reasons. The small shield has
much less mass and it cover a much smaller area.
Greg Fried writes:
> A few words about the 'combat sense' skill I proposed several postings back
> and which Paul Reilly brought up today. I originally mentioned this skill in
> response to someone's question about how to get PCs to use more of their
> combat skills. We all know players who get *really* good with one weapon and
> slog out each combat in the same old predictable way. It'd be nice to find
> some way to encourage those swahbuckling Three Musketeer combats -- but who
> wants to head-butt, kick or pull a curtain down over an enemy when he's got
> 115% in bastard sword to use instead?! 'Combat sense' is a skill that allows
> combatants to survey a combat situation and then employ unusual tactics at a
> considerable advantage.
Unusual tactics do not happen at some advantage they happen because they
are convenient. Most SCA combat is done in what could be called an
honorable style. We don't kick, elbow, head butt, etc.. However some
of us locally have tried what we call a brawling style where we do allow
these types of maneuvers. We have only done this with fighters that are
very experienced at fighting each other. Generally all these maneuvers
get done because they are convenient. They do not reduce the number of
other attacks but simply happen in addition. For example you might head
butt someone simply because their head is at the moment in front of yours.
For armored fighters these attacks really should do no more then minimal
damage. What they do do is distract or unbalance an opponent so that a
weapon blow might get past an attack. I generally just assume that they
are happening and are part of the attack percentages.
Tackling and triping someone is a different manner. If you are on the
ground in a melee you are at a definite disadvantage.
Rob Mace