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Date: Wed, 9 Jun 93 17:15:47 +0200
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From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 09 Jun 1993, part 2
Precedence: junk
Status: O
The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.
Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM",
they will automatically be included in a next issue. Try to change the
Subject: line from the default Re: RuneQuest Daily... on replying.
Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest. If you
want to submit articles to the Digest only, contact the editor at
RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM.
Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor:
RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld)
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 07 Jun 1993, part 3
Message-ID:
Date: 8 Jun 93 19:50:42 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1008
Some short replys:
_________________________________
Peter van Heusden in X-RQ-ID: 991
> Well, someone unlurked recently and posted a very irritating post about not
> wanting to read about Sorcery, and only wanting Glorantha.
> However, I would agree, it is rather irritating getting them mixed up. I
> don't particularly want to read about Glorantha. So: How do people feel
> about splitting the Digest into a "Rules" digest and a "Glorantha" one? Sure,
> "Gloranthan rules" are ok in the Rules section, just not Gloranthan theology,
> myth, etc.
No, not another list! But I'd be very grateful if someone could come up with
a hypertext solution for archiving the wealth of the digest, with keywords
etc.
_________________________________
Brandon Brylawski in X-RQ-ID: 992
> With regard to sorcery and long-duration magics, I would like strongly
> to advocate an idea used In Ars Magica : long-lasting spells require the
> expenditure of something that does not regenerate to the caster. In AM permanent
> spells require an expenditure of _vis_, magical "essences" that can be found
> in small quantitites in strange places. In Glorantha, the natural sacrifice
> is POW. I recommend cutting down the duration of sorcerous spells (and perhaps
> some divine spells, too) sharply, while permitting these durations to be
> lengthened substantially by the use of POW sacrifice. In other words, long-
> lasting spells are junior enchantments. Any thoughts?
In Ars Magica Vis comes from outward sources, like slain dragons, demons etc.
It can even be kind of distilled. The logical parallel in RQ-terms seem
to be POW-Spirits (which I handle as the life essence of plants, btw),
not permanent POW sacrifices.
And no temporal POW sacrifices by the sorcerers for the whole duration, either!
I once devised a ritual of "fuelling" in which a wizard would temporally bind
his POW to the spell target. There was a skill-based risk of permanently
losing that POW, plus the disadvantage that he didn't have it for the time
it takes o fuel the target (several days, usually). What do you think?
_______________________
Brandon in X-RQ-ID: 993
> With regards to initiates regaining spells:
> I like Graeme Lindell's ideas that initiates get back 1 point of divine
> magic at a seasonal ritual and all at the high holy days. Initiate magic being
> completely one-shot and priests/lords being reusable on a wekly basis is just
> too much of a difference. Given Lindell's structure, on the other hand, it
> would be absolutely reasonable to say that certain spells are always one-shot
> for initiates, hjust as initiates cannot sacrifice for magics that are one-use
> for priests.
Introduce several stages of initiation: The lowliest (like Yelm the Youth)
with practically no divine magic, slowly ascending into one-use of some spells,
other spells later, the first ones slowly regainable, and so on. RQ offers the
novice, trained etc. "levels", simply apply them to cult hierarchy.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: tzunder@cix.compulink.co.uk (Tom Zunder)
Subject: Urolag
Message-ID:
Date: 8 Jun 93 21:40:34 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1009
I filed this to read later.
I like it a lot, and would like to see some more Eastern Isles cults.
I agree that a short paragraph ior two first on them all would let us pick
and choose.
I too got rejected by loren millers new RQ4 playtest centre, wassup Loren
Bye
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Orlanth Rex! tzunder@cix.compulink.com.uk
--------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------
From: 100116.2616@CompuServe.COM (David Hall)
Subject: Sorcery, pt.2
Message-ID: <930608202335_100116.2616_BHJ19-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 8 Jun 93 20:23:35 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1010
>From Carl Fink:
> Um, David, *most* sorcery users on Glorantha are NOT Malkioni. The
>Dwarfs, Kralori, East Islanders, many Pamaltelans, and some trolls use
>sorcery, and have nothing to do with Malkion.
Um, Carl, *most* sorcery users in Glorantha are Malkioni. The dwarfs are
too few to worry about, the Kralori Dragon pantheon worshippers have a very
few sorcerers (and I'd dispute even those few), The East Islanders worship
all sorts including Malkion, the Pamaltelan sorcerers ARE mostly Malkioni,
and of course some trolls do do use sorcery. But there are 12 million +
Malkioni in Genertela and they make up "the most".
If you want to base RQ4 Sorcery on various minority variations of sorcery
then I'd suggest you are making a BIG mistake. The majority (or the biggest
minority, if I take your point - and I don't!) are Malkioni. Ignore them at
your peril.
OTOH these minorities can be treated as separate "sects" which require
different rules.
RQ vs. Glorantha debate. RQ lives or dies with Glorantha. Whether you like
it or not, if Glorantha fails then RQ will die, and be dropped by AH. I
really don't think that RQ is any better than many other FRP systems. It
certainly can't survive just as a rules system alone. RQ Earth supplements
are far too much of a risk until RQ is established - five or ten years at
the present rate of publication. In the meantime the bedrock of of RQ
players are Glorantha addicts, and Glorantha is the only thing that stands
RQ above the FRP pack.
I welcome a split in the Digest between Glorantha and rules. But that
doesn't mean that the Glorantha forum won't discuss rules! They'll discuss
Gloranthan rules. I'm just happy to say goodbye to the non-Gloranthans,
they can populate the ghetto while we trek to the Good Place.
---------------------
From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Wizardry
Message-ID: <930608211400_100270.337_BHB39-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 8 Jun 93 21:14:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1011
_________________
Carl Fink writes:
> David Hall writes, in part:
>
>> Any new sorcery rules have to have at their heart the Malkioni religion
>> and its caste system. They have to explain the relationship and attitude
>> that each caste has concerning sorcery - for each of the sects. Ideally,
>> perhaps, there should be a different sorcery system for each sect!
>
> Um, David, *most* sorcery users on Glorantha are NOT Malkioni. The
> Dwarfs, Kralori, East Islanders, many Pamaltelans, and some trolls use
> sorcery, and have nothing to do with Malkion.
>
> OTOH, we certainly have discussed varying sorcery by sect.
Well, this open-minded attitude is cheering news for the vast profusion of
Mostali, Kralori, East Isles and Pamaltelan RuneQuest campaigns . OTOH,
for anyone wanting to play a game set in any part of Genertela that's been
significantly explored in rules and supplements, it's a bit of a downer.
I think - and not for the first time - that in trying to expand RQ4 to a
'global' scale (inappropriate word, I know, on a flat earth) there is a
danger of losing sight of home. Sorcery as a generic-cum-mechanical system
is no use to anyone in coming to terms with Glorantha. Until Avalon Hill
(or Reaching Moon MegaCorp, or Carl Fink Productions, or whoever) start
significantly detailing the more distant regions of Glorantha, we're better
off describing the stuff you find back where almost everyone lives and
plays. In Sorcery terms, that's Malkionism.
Dwarfs are sorcery-users, but live in holes in the ground, and are seldom
seen out of them. Kralori live in Kralorela, and hate to travel; most of
them don't use sorcery, instead using the similar (but poorly defined)
Godunya Magic. Pamaltelans are only found Down South, for the most part;
the only Pamaltelans native to Genertela are the (presumably Rokari) Black
Knights of Pithdaros. But the Malkioni range world-wide: need I remind you
of Valkaro the Good Wizard (Malkionism in the East Isles) or the Sedalpist
heresy of Enkloso and Vralos (Malkionism in Pamaltela)? The other human
cultures you mention have an occasional sorcerer among a vast populace who
follow other faiths; the Malkioni are a sorcery-using culture, and are
*certainly* the largest such in Glorantha.
Just saying, "There are many types of sorcery, so we aren't going to
describe the most commonly encountered one in the rules," strikes me as a
downright peculiar way to carry on. Like refusing to write up the
mediaeval Church for a European-centred FRP campaign because equal weight
ought to be given to every Religion of the Book (and, perhaps, to the
Gnostics, Mormons and Manichees), regardless of how useful they would be to
the game itself.
I honestly find it hard to believe that you are *seriously* using this poor
argument to justify repeating the soullessness of RQ3 Sorcery. More likely
you either don't want to say *anything* about sorcery-using cultures in the
rules, or are trying to score points off David Hall for some personal
reason. Not very constructive in either case, given the crying need for a
social context for sorcery, and the undying love and respect we all hold
for our Loyal Thane Keeping the Light.
Most sorcery users you are ever going to meet in a RQ game will be Malkioni
Wizards from the West. Why not try to write up some good rules for them?
Yours, slightly peeved
====
Nick
====
---------------------
From: gal502@cscgpo.anu.edu.au (Graeme A Lindsell)
Subject: Re: MOB's comments on sorcery
Message-ID: <9306090622.AA04371@cscgpo.anu.edu.au>
Date: 9 Jun 93 21:23:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1012
When MOB posted his comments on sorcery ie. that it can
be changed because none of the supplements really use it,
I expected a reply from those people who have sorcerer
player characters and lo and behold one comes from Peter
van Heusden. I thought I'd chip in my 2% of a wheel (by
weight):
Not all RQ players use Glorantha as their world: nothing
wrong with that. Almost all people who play in Glorantha
use RQ though: Glorantha was the world that came with RQI
and RQII and all playing material that is based in
Glorantha uses the RQ rules. I think a long term Glorathan
player has a right to expect the game rules to reflect
the published description of the world.
There is also a lot of published material about Glorantha for
which "official" RQ scenarios have never been published. This is
probably because Glorantha pre-dates RQ by so many years (GS
started it in 1966 I think). This gives us quite a bit of data
about, say, the West without game rules to back it up.
My problem with sorcery is this: I can't see a culture based
on RQIII sorcery being anything like what we are told the
West is like. RQIII sorcery seems designed to build the "classic"
european wizard: a solitary individual who spends most of his
time studying, and whose seldom used magic is extremely powerful.
The rules, as presented, give no reason for a sorcerer to seek
social interaction: he is independant of society.
Compare this with divine magic: a priest is by definition a social
animal; to regain his spells he needs many initiates. His religious
standing reflects his magical standing which also reflects his temporal
power in society.
This in my view is historically accurate: throughout history most
rulers have also been heads of religions (Roman & Japanese Emperors,
the Popes through history, the British monarchy today). The divine
magic rules work fine to create this situation: around Dragon Pass
most rulers, generals etc hold high religious positions. The Red
Emperor and Godunya gain tremendous magical power through their
religions.
This doesn't work in the West though, especially in Seshnela. I can't
see why the Sorcerers continue to obey their Lords. Their magical
powers are completely unrelated to their priesthoods, under the current
sorcery rules (RQIII and the draft RQIV rules). A few weeks ago, Nick
Brooke wrote that he could not believe that the Loskalmi culture
would work as described; I can't see the Seshneli culture lasting
beyond the ArchBishop of their church getting the Immortality spell.
The first argument between him and the (magically useless) King
will get you a dead King IMHO.
What RQ needs is a sorcery system that will:
i) Create the societies described in what has been the "official"
game world since RQ began.
ii) Be adaptable to other worlds/societies that GM's create for their
own games.
iii) Have rules to adapt RQIII sorcerers to the new system.
All of this is IMHO, of course.
Graeme Lindsell a.k.a gal502@huxley.anu.edu.au
---------------------
From: DScott@snail.demon.co.uk (David Scott)
Subject: Vampires are Brithini
Message-ID: <9306090736.aa22794@post.demon.co.uk>
Date: 9 Jun 93 06:38:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1013
Are readers a tad upset that I have implied there is an obsesion with sorcery
on this newsletter? This has been going on for years, just take a look at some
old digests.
>Peter van Heusden said....
>I must, to start, state that the Digest is explicitely for both Avalon Hill's
>RuneQuest RPG,and Glorantha.
>However, I would agree, it is rather irritating getting them mixed up.
I see someone understood what I was getting at. Fair enough, some people don't
want to read about Glorantha, but why such concenration on rules mechanics.
Nick Brook said in one of his letters "Role playing not Roll Playing".
Thanks to all those who have started to voice their opinions on this subject.
Nick Brooke says
>Discussion point: Vivamort is a Western Sect, not a Rune Cult. If you can
>drain the life energy from someone else, while living forever yourself,
>what are you? Either a Vampire or else a Sorcerer (note how many
>Gloranthan Vampires come from the West). If we can crack this little
>puzzle, we may know what it is that other, more morally-based sorcerers are
>trying to achieve... what makes them tick.
Of course Vivamort is a western sect. In the Godtime is was one of the immortal
Brithini who became aposate (if that makes sense to a brithini). He lost his
immortality and sought to recover it other ways. His runic connections were the
result of his attempts to regain immortality. Finally he did it, a pact with
the devil, now he is immortal , but at what cost....cut from the mana flow. If
you become a powerful sorcerer perhaps you can meet him and learn his secrets.
More Nick
>With that as a background, let's get on to the business of how religion
>relates to everyday life in the West.
Discussion point: How do the Brithini view their creation. Where they created
by the Creator, or do they beleive they devolved from him. If the latter were
true do they then believe themselvers to be the creator?
David Scott
Hope that made some sense.
Sandwiches on the edge of time
DScott@Snail.demon.co.uk 158.152.16.30
---------------------
From: STEVEG@ARC.UG.EDS.COM (Steve Gilham)
Subject: History of Glorantha &c.
Message-ID: <01GZ5KJ8BRFM0057XM@UG.EDS.COM>
Date: 8 Jun 93 17:04:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1014
Peter van Heusden asks
>One thing which has been puzzling me: What is the history of RuneQuest? And
>Glorantha? When did Greg put his world together? When did it all start? Can
>some of you Great Old Ones enlighten me? (I wonder what RQ I must have looked
>like...)
Greg apparently started the first jottings of his own synthetic myth in the
mid sixties; by the early 1970's he had the material for White Bear & Red
Moon, for which he formed a company to publish. Having seen and disliked
original D&D, he got in touch (details unclear) with Steve Perrin, who as
author of the "Perrin Conventions" house rules had done a lot to re-define D&D
in West Coast play, to develop a game for Glorantha.
RQ1 differed little from RQ2. Main differences are
1) Cover was sepia, not coloured
2) The Protection spell was split into two ; Padding a 2point protection
usable w/armour or Protection, stackable to 4 points w/o
3) Cumulative damage to 2*limb hit points severed the limb (hence Gimpy's
tavern)
4) Impales were on 25% of to-hit chance and there were no slash or crush rules
(essentially all the optional rules at the back of RQ2 were not there in RQ1)
5) RQ1 had a table which you could roll on to modify standard monster values
e.g. +10% werapon skill, knows Befuddle, has scale armour & such things.
---------------------
From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 08 Jun 1993, part 1
Message-ID:
Date: 9 Jun 93 07:18:52 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1015
Greg Fried here.
Carl Fink:
Thanks VERY much for your thoughts on a heroquest in my campaign. Since I am
a 'pick n chooser' with Gloranthan lore, I had forgotten that Arkat
'invented' heroquesting, and that a paleolithic clansman might not have
access to his techniques of entering the realm of myth! Nonetheless, if
'primitive' peoples do not have access to 'heroquesting' as an almost
scientific process, certainly they must have something like 'visionquests'.
These would, as you say, involve a much more intuitive, haphazard
(underlining 'hazard'!) process: getting some advice from the shaman,
consulting the ancestors, and seeking guidance from friendly, and perhaps
unfriendly, spirits. Thanks for loosening up my imagination!
---------
Peter van Heusden:
I imagine you'll get a lot of other responses to you questions about the
origins of Glorantha, but I would suggest getting hold of issue #5 of "Tales
of the Reaching Moon" which has an extensive and very illuminating (pun
intended?!) interview with Greg Stafford. Issue #9 has a good interview with
Sandy Petersen. Just in case you don't have access to TotRM, send 5 British
pinds to David Hall, 21 Stephenson Court, Osbome Street, Slogh, Berkshire,
SL1 1TN. (Excuse me: that 5 _pounds_ per issue.) You should probably write
to David Hall first to check on the postage and back-issue availability.
Hope this helps!