(Message rqd:25) Return-Path:Received: from Holland.Sun.COM (sunnl) by homeland.Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05377; Fri, 11 Jun 93 17:17:05 +0200 Received: from glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM by Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1e) id AA10941; Fri, 11 Jun 93 17:16:21 +0200 Received: by glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA23797; Fri, 11 Jun 93 17:15:23 +0200 Date: Fri, 11 Jun 93 17:15:23 +0200 Message-Id: <9306111515.AA23797@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM> From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 11 Jun 1993, part 1 Precedence: junk Status: O The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM", they will automatically be included in a next issue. Try to change the Subject: line from the default Re: RuneQuest Daily... on replying. Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest. If you want to submit articles to the Digest only, contact the editor at RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM. Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld) --------------------- From: tzunder@cix.compulink.co.uk (Tom Zunder) Subject: Non-Glo Kites Message-ID: Date: 10 Jun 93 16:57:18 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1028 Non-Glo I played non-Glorantha RQ totally until 2 years ago. But it was all sortof pseudo Glorantha. Kites You fly kites because they're fun, free and cost no POW or MP! War Kites would allow long times in the sky, using magic for later fine manipulation. Sorcery I'm more interested in who they are han their skill system. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Orlanth Rex! tzunder@cix.compulink.com.uk -------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------- From: carlf@Panix.Com (Carl Fink) Subject: Stuff Message-ID: <199306101719.AA29664@sun.Panix.Com> Date: 10 Jun 93 09:19:23 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1029 To: runequest@glorantha.holland.sun.com Subject: copyrights curtiss@netcom.com (Curtis Shenton) writes in part: R>On a totall side note for a second Theomancy isn't actually a trademark >of anything is it? I've been planning on using it for something that >might get published(it's a cool word) but if it's a trademark of >glorantha I'll drop it. Though I seem to recall first seeing someone use >the term in something other than RQ/Glorantha. Anyway enough digression. >:) "Theomancy" is Latin for "predicting the future with the help of the gods." I'm no lawyer, but I'd imagine it would be hard to copyright. davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake) writes: R> Arkat did not invent HeroQuesting, many cults went on HeroQuests >during the first age before Arkat arrived. And in the GodTime there was >nothing but HeroQuesting!! (in loose sense). Arkat discovered that one could enter the Hero plane deliberately, outside the context of a religious ritual. --------------------- From: s.manning@ic.ac.uk Subject: Re:Sorcery and the Malkioni Message-ID: <9306101824.AA11363@tera> Date: 10 Jun 93 20:24:40 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1030 First an introduction: I bought RQ3 when it first came out, but never got to play it as all my friends were AD&D purists and for the past few years I have not thought much about RQ at all. However, I recently got interested in it again and was rather surprised to find from TOTRM and this digest, which I should add I have only subscribed too since this Tuesday last, that not only is sorcery so reviled, but that people do not think it even fits in with the Malkioni. Unfortunately, I felt, perhaps erroneously, that the best part of RQ3 was that it opened up the West to game play. Therefore, I have decided to send in some comments, which I hope I will be excused for if they are too simple-minded. (i)Different Sorcery Rules For The Different Heresies of The Malkioni. The Hrestoli came from the Brithini originally and all subsequent heresies, except the Stygian, have split off from the Hrestoli. Since, according to the prosopaedia in GoG, Zzabur is known as the First Wizard, I have always taken these facts to mean that all Malkioni use the same sorcery system, which means the same sorcery rules as far as the game mechanics are concerned. (ii) However, (i) does not mean they all use the same spells, because we know this not to be true and according to book 2 of Genertela, the Brithini have spells that non-Brithini cannot use. This is one major difference that does exist and needs to be explained. (iii) We also know from Genertela that the Hrestoli, Rokari and presumably all the Hrestoli offshoots refer to sorcery in religious terms, as prayers or miracles, but do the Brithini? Also, for the Rokari and the Galvosti(?), which don't have caste advancement, how do the different castes approach magic? Here I agree there would be noticeable caste differences. I imagine that for the Hrestoli and Borists(?) there must be some differences here as well, but probably not so extreme. It would be nice if these points could be included in a write-up of the Malkioni, as doing so would really help to put sorcery into a social context. [Digression: Perhaps the Hrestoli etc. refer to sorcery as prayers because sorcery involves the manipulation of natural processes that they believe to be part of the Invisible God (see GoG) and therefore leads to some contact with the Divine? If so, how do the Brithini relate to spell use?] I guess that to sum-up, what I have been trying to say is that I think that apart from some special Brithini magic, all the Malkioni use the same sorcery (rules), but that there will be differences in how their different societies view it. (iv) Re: David Scott's enquiries about the origin of humanity according to the Brihini. I wrote to Chaosium about this several years ago and Greg Stafford answered (26/9/89) that the Malkioni believe that: "Men are the spawn of the rape of merwomen by kolati." Therefore Malkion is human - see WF 13. According to GoG only the very earliest entities (including the dragons ?) new the Creator personally. (vi) Discussion point. In the letter mentioned above I also asked about Yingar the Messanger. Greg Stafford replied with "Yingar the Messanger is more like an angel than a Saint. There are others like him. BUT the Malkioni do not like to admit to that." Any thoughts? (vi) I have not thought much about other sorcery users. However, as sorcery is "just" the use of natural processes, I don't believe that it would be unreasonable if the Mostali use pretty much the same sorcery system as the Malkioni, as according to GoG they do both examine the world systematically and share certain beliefs. (vii) Question: If Vivamort is a Western sect, how does this tie in with the cult of Vivamort as given in CoT? (viii) OK, dumb point now. If some people believe that the different sects of the Invisible God should use different systems of sorcery then how do they explain divine magic under which Storm Bull and Primal Chaos both obey the same rules? Personally, I think there is more of a difference between Issaries and Lankhor Mhy than between the Hrestoli and the Rokari! I hope that my comments are:(a) not too confused and (b) not too stupid, but as a Malkioniophile I was rather concerned to find that the West and sorcery were in such a state of flux. Personally, I find this even sadder when we recall that it was in the West, with Prince Snodal of Loskalm, that Glorantha began. Simon Manning. --------------------- From: JOVANOVIC@CUCCFA.CCC.COLUMBIA.EDU Subject: Gloranthan Sorcery Message-ID: <930610161319.32aa@CUCCFA.CCC.COLUMBIA.EDU> Date: 10 Jun 93 12:13:19 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1031 I too don't agree with the claim that Malkioni comprise the majority of the sorcery users in Glorantha. A look at the Glorantha book shows that if you add up all of the sorcery users in the Janube, Jonatela, Loskalm, Safelster, Seshnela and Umathela, you get about as many sorcery users as there are in Kralorela alone. I also doubt that all the sorcery users in those western countries are true Malkoni - a number will be Arkati, Brithini, heretics or independent sorcerers. Add in Arolint, Carmania, Dara Happa, the East Isles, Esrolia, Fonrit, the Kingdom of Ignorance, Maslo, Peloria, Orathorn and the Vadeli Isles - all non Malkioni sorcery using cultures (only one island out of the thousands that comprise the East Isles follows the way of Malkion), and it seems pretty clear that the Malkioni do not exactly dominate Glorantha, or even comprise the majority of sorcery users. I'm not even including the Mostali or the Trolls, which make up a decent size group of non Malkioni sorcery users. The East is a far larger and more homogenous sorcery using culture than the West. I could see arguing that the Kralori Empire and the Kingdom of Ignorance use essentially the same system of sorcery. I'm not sure that the various Malkioni schools (Rokari, Hrestoli, Rokari, Galvosti, etc.) use a system that is as unified. I actually think that each is fairly unique in one way or another. There has been as little official material published on the West as there has been on the East Isles, Kralorela or Pamaltela. And frankly, Kralorela and the East Isles strike me as being as least as interesting as the West, if not more so. I'm afraid I'm far more in agreement with Ken Rolston's attitude here - the only regions of Glorantha that have been developed in any detail are Dragon Pass, Pavis and Prax, secondarily the Lunar Empire, Holy Country, Balazar, Elder Wilds and the Wastes. Until the other regions are developed, the sorcery rules should deal with the sorcerers one will meet in the developed regions. In order of likelihood, that would appear to be: 1) Carmanians (occupying forces, settlers in Prax, Lunar Empire, Carmania) 2) Arkati (Muse Roost, Dagori Inkarth trolls, Shadowlands trolls, Holy Country) 3) Unaligned sorcerers (occupying forces, Lunar Empire, Carmania) 4) Atheists (God Forgot, Orathorn in the Wastes) 5) Kralori (Pavis, Kralorela) 6) Brithini (Sir Ethelrist and the Black Horse troop at Muse Roost) 7) Mostali (Pavis, Dwarf Run, Greatway, Lunar Empire) 8) Invisible Orlanth (Carmania, Lunar Empire) Kralori traders visit Pavis regularly, and on occasion reach Sartar and the Lunar Empire. Malkioni seem to have very little to do with this region. About the only Malkioni in the area might be the Trader Princes of the Holy Country, and they seem to come across more as Arkati than traditional Malkioni - at least that's how I've always run them or seen them run. Nick, out of curiousity, what makes you think Malkioni sorcerers are so common in most peoples games? I think this is an interesting question, but frankly, I've only seen one Malkioni sorcerer run by a player in any of the RQ games I've ever played or run in. The other sorcerers I've seen run by players include: a God Forgot sorcerer, two Carmanian sorcerers, an Arkati sorcerer, a Kingdom of Ignorance sorcerer, a Kralori sorcerer, an East Isles sorcerer (not a Malkioni), and an unaligned sorcerer from the Lunar Empire. Eight non-Malkioni compared to one Malkioni. Likewise, I've seen far more non-Malkioni sorcerers as NPCs than Malkioni sorcerers. What sort of numbers have you experienced? I think this would be a great question for a survey of some sort - where do people run and what regions of Glorantha have they run or played in, and what sort of magic systems were used. I'm afraid I have to disagree with you regarding Kralori - one must become a priest of Godunya and expend quite a bit of POW to use Godunya magic effectively - the vast majority of the Kralori use common sorcery, at least according to the published Glorantha material (91% by the book). Priests of Godunya are a minority, and even so, I doubt most theists would classify them as anything but sorcerers. Please note that none of this is meant to say that sorcerers should not be as fleshed out and developed as are the other magicians of Glorantha, rather that developing only the Malkioni strikes me as the wrong approach to take. Oliver --------------------- From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke) Subject: Western Sects Message-ID: <930610221150_100270.337_BHB5-1@CompuServe.COM> Date: 10 Jun 93 22:11:50 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1032 ______________________ for Joerg Baumgartner: Sorry to be brief, Joerg. These are the immediate salient points from your posting a couple of days ago, on the different types of Western sorcery: > Brithini sorcery can be expected to be notably different from Malkionist > sorcery, especially considering their use of the Immortality spell... Y'know, this is like that old "Elf Sex" argument: some things we'd *think* were Rune spells, Sorcery, Enchantments etc. can just happen naturally. The Brithini caste system acts like a protracted ritual that keeps everyone who participates fully in it from ageing. It's us non-Brithini that have to resort to Immortality spells ("Not another f***ing oyster!")... > (Hrestoli) magic obviously builds upon Rokari concepts. I might be > wrong, but Hrestol appears to me as a Fronelan character, who started > the Malkionist church as Loskalm knows it. ... > The Rokari church must be pre-Dawn, its class system a copy of the > Brithini caste system. Cart before the horse. In the beginning, there were the Brithini, who lived forever and had no gods. In the Ice Age (Western name for the Great Darkness), they ran into trouble and started dying. Malkion taught most of the Brithini about God, and they became Malkioni and didn't feel so bad about dying any more -- though some remained stubborn, and these stole Malkioni secrets to form the roots of the modern atheist Brithini culture (NB: this relationship is very speculative, and dubious -- I am currently Divining for a clear statement). Immediately after the Dawn, the Malkioni religion stopped working. Prince Hrestol of Frowal (in Old Seshnela) had a vision (or went on a HeroQuest), and then taught the Malkioni something new (see my piece on "What Makes the West Tick" for suggestions as to what), making them into Hrestoli. They were still called Malkioni, though -- think, perhaps, of Saint Paul's relationship to Christ and Christianity (esp. in view of Hrestol's "Road to Damascus" vision of the Prophet Malkion?). History happened for a while... (again, see "WMtWT"). But at the start of the Third Age, Rokar and a bunch of others in Seshnela thought Hrestol had got it wrong, and tried to recreate the pristine form of pre-Hrestoli (i.e: pre-Dawn) Malkionism. That's why it looks so old-fashioned: they *want* it to! Rokarism is an attempt to bring back a dead religion. I don't know if it's achieved what it wants to, though the extended life through piety is perhaps a pointer... > The Boristi offshoot of the Rokari Church can't be older than the greater > darkness ... The Galvosti might be older than that ... I've always thought these two "quibbling" heresies were the result of God Learner meddling in the conquered Stygian Empire in the Second Age. Their geographical spread (areas of Ralios not settled by Malkioni until the mid First Age) seems to weigh against your early dating. > Belief in the Creator God is shared by the rock-bound Mostali Westerners who have met the Mostali *think* they believe in the Creator God. The Mostali concept of the World Machine is so alien to human minds that I doubt we are really looking at the confluence of ideas you propose. The division of Dwarf gods is probably the result of other cultures' myths trying to interpret the Dwarfish concepts and structures they interacted with. (Look at the Cult of Magasta in Tales 10 -- when it happens -- for a *fine* example of this kind of thing!). > The Henotheist Church ... are the homespun version of where the God > Learners started from. I'm not sure I follow you. The Henotheists respect and worship their gods. The God Learners used and abused the ones they discovered and/or created. The connection seems weak. > Carmania features conventional Malkionism, though nobody (except Nick > Brooke) tells us which variety... When did I ever tell you that? What a terrible slip! Give me time to get it right, guys, then I'll tell all! > In the beginning, (the Jrusteli) were Rokari who were influenced by the > Stygian way. Other than the Henotheists they looked around and adopted > long-dropped Brithini practices, probably imported by the Vadeli... Hmmm... In the beginning, the Jrusteli colonists were Seshnelan Malkioni -cum- Hrestoli (as discussed above). Their God Learners, in alliance with the Seshnegi, conquered the Stygians of Ralios, and *then* stole the Arkat cult's HeroQuesting secrets. I don't think they ever *worshipped* gods themselves -- they made gods for other people to worship, or made themselves into gods, etc. I don't see them falling into this "Henotheistic" way -- it's like a debasement of what their "scientific method" stands for. But I'm happy to blame God Learning on the filthy, stinking Vadeli! (Along with the weather, the price of shoes, UK corporation tax law, and everything else irritating in the whole of Creation). Yours, ==== Nick ==== --> Read books by James Branch Cabell. --> "Jurgen" and "Something About Eve" --> are the best HeroQuest texts out! --------------------- From: carlf@Panix.Com (Carl Fink) Subject: cosmopolites Message-ID: <199306110050.AA20753@sun.Panix.Com> Date: 10 Jun 93 16:50:57 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1033 To: runequest@glorantha.holland.sun.com Subject: cosmopolites A discussion with Nick Brooke over in the playtest echo has made me curious: how cosmopolitan are people's games? Some people have written of, say, all-Sartarite parties, or even all-one-family games a la _Vikings_. Let me describe Oliver Jovanovic's current game for contrast. My character is an Issaries from Aggar. We have a Sartarite, a Pavisite, an Esrolian, and ...a Kingdom of Ignorance Exarch?! Our Fronelan warrior and Lunar spy quit a few seasons back, and our Hrestoli Knight was washed away by a giant undine only a few weeks ago. So - does anyone else play in such an odd mix? Our last encounter was with a Teshnan sorceror and a Kralori assassin, who attacked us as we travelled in Pamaltela! Interesting conversation - the assassin made a demand, and we wanted to discuss it without his understanding: (Me) "I say in...um...Sartarite, 'He says if we give him our sorceror he won't kill us.'" (Mike) "I say in Pavic, 'Well, we can't do that.'" (Bob) "I say in Swordspeech, 'Should we just attack him, or use our normal ambush tactic?'" (Me) I say in Darktongue, 'I say we go for the ambush tactic.'" I don't know if the Kralori understood us, but he must have been impressed with out language scholarship. Our ambush tactic: we walk right into it and kill the attackers. We used to hang out with Humakti too often. --------------------- From: tzunder@cix.compulink.co.uk (Tom Zunder) Subject: David Hall and Non-Glorantha Message-ID: Date: 11 Jun 93 04:28:47 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1034 I agree with David that RQ stands and falls with Glorantha but I do think it is a better system than most (sorcery excepted) and that many RQ ers are non-Gloranthan. My experience as a University role-plyaer in the mid 80s was that more non-Gloranthan RQ was plyed than Gloranthan. The people left NOW however, are probably more Gloranthan -------------------------------------------------------------------- Orlanth Rex! tzunder@cix.compulink.co.uk --------------------------------------------------------------------