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To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 11 Jun 1993, part 2
Precedence: junk
Status: O
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 09 Jun 1993, part 1
Message-ID:
Date: 11 Jun 93 11:03:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1035
___________________________
David Hall in X-RQ-ID: 1010
> From Carl Fink:
>> Um, David, *most* sorcery users on Glorantha are NOT Malkioni. The
>>Dwarfs, Kralori, East Islanders, many Pamaltelans, and some trolls use
>>sorcery, and have nothing to do with Malkion.
> Um, Carl, *most* sorcery users in Glorantha are Malkioni. The dwarfs are
> too few to worry about, the Kralori Dragon pantheon worshippers have a very
> few sorcerers (and I'd dispute even those few), The East Islanders worship
> all sorts including Malkion, the Pamaltelan sorcerers ARE mostly Malkioni,
> and of course some trolls do do use sorcery. But there are 12 million +
> Malkioni in Genertela and they make up "the most".
Sorry to disagree, David, but I think there's actually quite a lot of
sorcerous magic in the East.
There are 12 million humans living in Kralorela, one of the three Eastern
cultures on which we have some information. On page 22 in the Genertela
Book in the left column we can read: "Sorcery is common in the empire, but
spirit magic ...". This makes at least 6 million people in Kralorela who
have some sorcerous magic (compare Genertelan Player's Book, page 29).
Also, I'm afraid, there are lots of Orlanthi in the West, which might
reduce your number of 12 million a bit. And then I wouldn't consider
Hrestoli Farmer class citizens sorcerers.
A very quick addition of _all_ human inhabitants of Seshnela, Ralios,
Fronela, Carmania and Maniria gives 23 million inhabitants, but these
include a _large_ portion of Orlanthi as well as all Hsunchen in the area,
and count all members of the Henotheist Church in Ralios as sorcerers
seems to me as inappropriate as in Kralorela.
So I get approximately 2 Eastern sorcerers for 3 Western sorcerers, barely
a minority to overlook. Agreed, they seldom travel, but player characters
tend to do.
> If you want to base RQ4 Sorcery on various minority variations of sorcery
> then I'd suggest you are making a BIG mistake. The majority (or the biggest
> minority, if I take your point - and I don't!) are Malkioni. Ignore them at
> your peril.
I agree that all the Malkionists thrown together are the biggest minority,
but I'd think there are huge differences between the sects which ought to
be reflected in the system, not just in some piddly spells.
> OTOH these minorities can be treated as separate "sects" which require
> different rules.
Yes, including the Malkionists.
> RQ vs. Glorantha debate. RQ lives or dies with Glorantha. Whether you like
> it or not, if Glorantha fails then RQ will die, and be dropped by AH. I
> really don't think that RQ is any better than many other FRP systems. It
> certainly can't survive just as a rules system alone. RQ Earth supplements
> are far too much of a risk until RQ is established - five or ten years at
> the present rate of publication. In the meantime the bedrock of of RQ
> players are Glorantha addicts, and Glorantha is the only thing that stands
> RQ above the FRP pack.
Given the situation in the English speaking world, I can do nothing but
agree. AH decided to risk one last try with RuneQuest, and to bae it on
Glorantha. So, if we want it or not, if RuneQuest is to succeed, Glorantha
has to succeed. I cannot say how the situation is in France, Spain, Japan
or Finland (all those other countries which have a translation of
RuneQuest), but it seems that RuneQuest is a real hitter there,
commercially as well as in the ranking in gamers' opinions. The german
RuneQuest is not yet big enough to rank among the leading seven systems,
partly due to even harder competition than on the English language market,
partly due to a similar marketing technique as AH had before Ken Rolston.
The German RuneQuesters seem to be split in a pure-Glorantha faction and a
generic faction (generic in the sense that GMs build their own world for
the rules, maybe with Glorantha as example, as suggested in RQ3). RQ3
became as popular as it was five to two years ago (i.e. before the German
edition hit the market) because of the Games Workshop edition of RQ3,
which had no mention at all of Glorantha. Well, I think it sold quite well
in Germany, despite the horrible late GW-style artwork (I've met people
who actually liked that, though, and I treasure my GW creature's book).
> I welcome a split in the Digest between Glorantha and rules. But that
> doesn't mean that the Glorantha forum won't discuss rules! They'll discuss
> Gloranthan rules. I'm just happy to say goodbye to the non-Gloranthans,
> they can populate the ghetto while we trek to the Good Place.
Well go into your ghetto on the long Dry, and I'll become a desert tracker
to follow you, even though I'll keep my base in blissful generic
RuneQuest. Seriously, I don't think we help RQ if we split its followers
also in organisation. I agree that RQ is only as good as some other first
rank rpgs, still I like the system better than those. RQ is an excellent
generic system, _because_ you can align it to worlds designed to fit with
its rules' philosophy. Call it Alternate Glorantha, if you want, I call
that generic.
____________________________
Nick Brooke in X-RQ-ID: 1011
_________________
Carl Fink writes:
> Well, this open-minded attitude is cheering news for the vast profusion of
> Mostali, Kralori, East Isles and Pamaltelan RuneQuest campaigns . OTOH,
> for anyone wanting to play a game set in any part of Genertela that's been
> significantly explored in rules and supplements, it's a bit of a downer.
You mean Prax, don't you? OK, then we don't need sorcery at all. Neither
do we need Kralori magics, Dragonewt magic, or rules for full plate armor.
Seriously, Nick, the material published about Tarsh, northern Sartar, or
the Holy country is as sparse as that about Kralorela, Fronela or the
Doraddi plains. I know there exists Sandy Petersens Pamaltela campaign,
maybe you and some select few have had a glimpse at that, but the average
RQ foot soldier/GM hasn't. Heck, I still haven't got the xeroxes of all
the RQ2 materials yet! Neither the issues of good old White Dwarf, Wyrms
Footnotes, and only very recently two issues of Heroes. The information I
have about Esrolia stems to the greatest part from the glimpses Greg gave
in KoS, plus miscellaneous from the Genertela Book. I don't even have a
decent map...
I know there are some sorcerers in Esrolia, else "Open Seas" would be
divine or spirit magic. How many? Which sect?
And Hendreikiland? Are the trader princes in Maniria Stygian heretics? Are
there larger portions Orlanthi in Ralian cities?
You tell me we know what kind of sorcery there is in the neighbourhood of
Dragon Pass. I don't. Enlighten me!
> I think - and not for the first time - that in trying to expand RQ4 to a
> 'global' scale (inappropriate word, I know, on a flat earth) there is a
> danger of losing sight of home. Sorcery as a generic-cum-mechanical system
> is no use to anyone in coming to terms with Glorantha. Until Avalon Hill
> (or Reaching Moon MegaCorp, or Carl Fink Productions, or whoever) start
> significantly detailing the more distant regions of Glorantha, we're better
> off describing the stuff you find back where almost everyone lives and
> plays. In Sorcery terms, that's Malkionism.
Well, I mentioned some of those "far away" regions of Glorantha. And I
remember that the first naval contact the Holy country had was with
Kralorela. There must be Kralori traders in the Holy Country, and that's
pretty close to home, isn't it?
> Dwarfs are sorcery-users, but live in holes in the ground, and are seldom
> seen out of them.
When they are, they'll use it, and we need the rules for them.
> Kralori live in Kralorela, and hate to travel; most of
> them don't use sorcery, instead using the similar (but poorly defined)
> Godunya Magic.
Not any more than Orlanthi use divine magic only (I still avoid Rune magic
in sorcery context). Sorcery is to them what spirit magic is to the
central Genertelan theistic cultures: Everyday magic. Godunyas magic is
for extreme situations, when you need to save your soul. (I agree though
that that needs elaboration.)
> Pamaltelans are only found Down South, for the most part;
> the only Pamaltelans native to Genertela are the (presumably Rokari) Black
> Knights of Pithdaros.
Who are they? And I think Argrath and Harrek are going to bring quite a
lot of Pamaltelans "home".
> But the Malkioni range world-wide:
> need I remind you
> of Valkaro the Good Wizard (Malkionism in the East Isles) or
Bad example, because it's the single exception on all of Vithela
> the Sedalpist
> heresy of Enkloso and Vralos (Malkionism in Pamaltela)? The other human
I didn't remeber this in Wednesday's article. Where is this detailed?
But agreed, they are yet another sect of Malkionists and need a slightly
different touch to their sorcery rules.
> cultures you mention have an occasional sorcerer among a vast populace who
> follow other faiths; the Malkioni are a sorcery-using culture, and are
> *certainly* the largest such in Glorantha.
If you count all the very different sects together, you'll beat the
combined sorcerous might of Kralorela, Vormain and Vithela by a nostril's
length.
> Just saying, "There are many types of sorcery, so we aren't going to
> describe the most commonly encountered one in the rules," strikes me as a
> downright peculiar way to carry on. Like refusing to write up the
> mediaeval Church for a European-centred FRP campaign because equal weight
> ought to be given to every Religion of the Book (and, perhaps, to the
> Gnostics, Mormons and Manichees), regardless of how useful they would be to
> the game itself.
I agree here: We need rules for the most common sorcerers soon. For Prax
these are the Carmanian settlers. They can't possibly be Hrestoli, I doubt
they're pure Rokari or Ralian style Henotheists, but "home" it is their
magic we need soon.
> Most sorcery users you are ever going to meet in a RQ game will be Malkioni
> Wizards from the West. Why not try to write up some good rules for
them?
Yeah, let's go ahead in that list of Loren's!
________________________________
Graeme Lindsell in X-RQ-ID: 1012
> Not all RQ players use Glorantha as their world: nothing
> wrong with that. Almost all people who play in Glorantha
> use RQ though: Glorantha was the world that came with RQI
> and RQII and all playing material that is based in
> Glorantha uses the RQ rules. I think a long term Glorathan
> player has a right to expect the game rules to reflect
> the published description of the world.
We all, the "generic faction" included, agree on that.
> My problem with sorcery is this: I can't see a culture based
> on RQIII sorcery being anything like what we are told the
> West is like. RQIII sorcery seems designed to build the "classic"
> european wizard: a solitary individual who spends most of his
> time studying, and whose seldom used magic is extremely powerful.
> The rules, as presented, give no reason for a sorcerer to seek
> social interaction: he is independant of society.
I had the same problems. The RQ3-sorcerous cultures in my world compare to
ancient Persia and Greece rather than Renaissance city states or feudal
Europe; the sorcerers in that cultures are imports form the sorcerous
cultures. My Feudal cultures (a mixture of barbarian and civilized from
RQ3) have the Low Sorcery I detailed yesterday.
> This in my view is historically accurate: throughout history most
> rulers have also been heads of religions (Roman & Japanese Emperors,
> the Popes through history, the British monarchy today). The divine
> magic rules work fine to create this situation: around Dragon Pass
> most rulers, generals etc hold high religious positions. The Red
> Emperor and Godunya gain tremendous magical power through their
> religions.
> This doesn't work in the West though, especially in Seshnela. I can't
> see why the Sorcerers continue to obey their Lords. Their magical
> powers are completely unrelated to their priesthoods, under the current
> sorcery rules (RQIII and the draft RQIV rules). A few weeks ago, Nick
> Brooke wrote that he could not believe that the Loskalmi culture
> would work as described; I can't see the Seshneli culture lasting
> beyond the ArchBishop of their church getting the Immortality spell.
> The first argument between him and the (magically useless) King
> will get you a dead King IMHO.
It does, graeme. The Seshnegi kings played very much the same role as the
Merowing dynasty did in the christian Frankish kingdom before Pippin threw
them out: They were descendants of Seshna, the goddes of the land, and I
remember they practised some sort of _very_ powerful ancestor worship.
This included Gerlant Flamesword, an important Malkionist saint, but
probably also the old gods of the land, who make up a powerful ancestry.
And as in Christian Frankish Gaul, where the king as descendant of Odin
still carried out the ancient fertility rites including the processional
driving of a cart drawn by bulls (not oxen, as mistakenly told by Rimbert
in the Vitae Caroli Magni), and keeping the Odin style haircut ("long hair
and beard", I think Rimbert compared the late Merowingian kings to todays
punks), the king carried out a sacerdotal function to deities that were no
longer the mainstream religion of the populace. They were deposed of at
the end of the first age, if I remember correctly, thereby paralleling the
Frankish history, where the Karolingian kings based kingship not on
descent from Wotanic gods, but on the blessing of the Christian church.
(This coexistance of Wotanic descent of the royal house and thoroughly
christian praxis could be observed in all of the Anglosaxon royal houses.
The kings of Mercia weren't fully socially acceptable, because they could
not trace their ancestry back to Odin or another heathen deity, as could
all the other Anglosaxon kings. As I said, all of them had been christians
for at least 100 years by then, but still the Mercian historian forged
some obscure tie to the heathen gods into the Mercian kings list.)
> What RQ needs is a sorcery system that will:
> i) Create the societies described in what has been the "official"
> game world since RQ began.
> ii) Be adaptable to other worlds/societies that GM's create for their
> own games.
> iii) Have rules to adapt RQIII sorcerers to the new system.
I think the vast majoriy will agree.
____________________________
David Scott in X-RQ-ID: 1013
> Of course Vivamort is a western sect. In the Godtime is was one of the immortal
> Brithini who became aposate (if that makes sense to a brithini). He lost his
> immortality and sought to recover it other ways. His runic connections were the
> result of his attempts to regain immortality. Finally he did it, a pact with
> the devil, now he is immortal , but at what cost....cut from the mana flow. If
> you become a powerful sorcerer perhaps you can meet him and learn his secrets.
Nice idea, but doesn't fit into the Humakt legend. Of course, that is God
Learner manufactured...
> Discussion point: How do the Brithini view their creation. Where they created
> by the Creator, or do they beleive they devolved from him. If the latter were
> true do they then believe themselvers to be the creator?
I think they believe in evolution, or rather devolution, as is shown in
the God Learner monomyth. That doesn't sound Orlanthi-influenced to me, at
least.
________________________
Arganth in X-RQ-ID: 1017
> You get CP by doing things your god likes - in it's most crude form,
> for killing the foes listed in 'particular likes and dislikes' in the
> cult write up. I also give them for good roleplaying and abiding to
> personaltiy traits - not necessarily the cult approved ones. Often it
> is better to see an Orlanthi acting modest because he's got a high
> modest score, rather than acting proud because that's an Orlanthi trait
> EVEN THOUGH he has a high modest score.
Sounds dangerously like experience points to me, but still seems useful.
My first impression was more that of a new characteristic, an additional
"divine POW". How many people do use these Pendragon trait mechanics in
RuneQuest? And how exactly? Should this be implemented in RQ4?
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: I was wrong - partly
Message-ID:
Date: 11 Jun 93 12:07:38 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1036
Well, since I lanced off my long treaty on sorcerous schools, I've got new
informations which contradict some of my guesses. This shows how even
someone who ownns and knows all the AH Glorantha-stuff can be lead to
totally wrong assumptions!
Well, what was wrong:
Rokari: These were originally Hrestoli who left the rigid hrestoli way at
the end of the second age.
Carmanians: This school is extensively described in the RQ4-sorcery draft.
They have strongly combat-oriented sorcery, due to their history as a
defeated warband from Fronela making their fortune in western Peloria (in
the second age). Now they are somewhat lunarized, revere non-Malkionist
deities and tolerate non-Malkionist peasantry.
It might be Carmanian sorcery which is prominent in the Kingdom of War, or
a heresy viewed with Carmanian eyes...
Vadeli: another immortal race like the Brithini, like these atheistic,
like these having a rigid (race-based) caste system, but unlike th
Brithini all three Vadeli castes use sorcery, and this might be one of the
reasons they hate each other. (According to David Hall, everybody hates
the Vadeli). They are one of the foremost seafarig peoples and as such
natural enemies of the monopolist Waertagi.
Stygian College: The Arkati have some influence in civilized Maniria, too.
I still stand behind most of the other stuff, though.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: malcolm@num-alg-grp.co.uk (Malcolm Cohen)
Subject: Re: How to make an elf hard
Message-ID: <2526.9306111435@jupiter.nag.co.uk>
Date: 11 Jun 93 14:35:43 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1037
> From: dickmj@essex.ac.uk
[...]
> As an elf bow is adapted to its user - if you don't believe me, check
> the STR and DEX requirements - I rule that the stronger the user, the
> stronger his bow will be and so elves add their damage bonus to the elf
> bow damage. This damage bonus is based on STR only, not SIZ. Also,
This is not in accordance with the physics I know. The energy imparted to the
arrow fired from a bow is the integral over firing time of the force behind the
arrow. Basically the larger the SIZ the longer the bow (improving the force
available in the latter part of the firing time) and the longer the arrow
(improving the firing time). Without going through all the hassle of
estimating the force function and integrating it, we can estimate that doubling
the size of the bow is going to double the energy of the arrow.
Anyway, I hope that is clear, SIZ (meaning Height in this case) is extremely
important in considering the energy imparted and thus damage done for longbows,
etc. -- in fact any "normal" bow (i.e. *not* a crossbow). I do not believe
that elf bows are meant to be crossbows.
> when an impale is made (we use the RQII impale rules) this extra damage
> is counted as weapon damage not a damage bonus. So if an elf has a
This seems completely gratuitous to me. Longbows are commonly matched to the
user as is and there is no such rule. Anyway, I never noticed a lack of damage
from an impale on one of these things.
>
[...i.e. impale changes from d8+d4+9=11-21 to d8+d4+14=16-26]
Or perhaps you are saying that elfbow arrows come equipped with dum-dum heads?
--
...........................Malcolm Cohen, NAG Ltd., Oxford, U.K.
(malcolm@nag.co.uk)