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Date: Mon, 14 Jun 93 17:15:53 +0200
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From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 14 Jun 1993, part 3
Precedence: junk
Status: O

The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.

Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM",
they will automatically be included in a next issue.  Try to change the
Subject: line from the default Re: RuneQuest Daily...  on replying.

Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest.  If you 
want to submit articles to the Digest only,  contact the editor at

Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor:

RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld)


From: (boris)
Subject: Re: Malkionism, Vadeli, Solace
Message-ID: <>
Date: 13 Jun 93 15:31:03 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1053

  David Hall wrote:
> However, I am the editor of an RQ fanzine and so I 
> do exist to be shot at and put in my place if I deserve it! 

  Just call him David "Clay Pigeon" Hall (PULL!) ;-)

> Oliver Jovanovic: my definition of Malkioni is the same as in the cult of 
> the Invisible God write-up, i.e. worshippers of the Invisible God. So I 
> include the Vadeli and the Stygians, but exclude the Carmanians.

  I always wondered why Brithini and Vadeli, who everyone says are atheists
  and worship no gods, are always considered Malkioni.  They are western in
  culture (at least the Brithini are, I'm hard pressed to find out much
  about the Vadeli culture other than it's seagoing and composed of three
  races, one now extinct), but they certainly don't worship the Invisible
  God or follow Malkion's Law (i.e. both Tap freely).  It's kind of like
  referring to followers of Voltaire's Enlightenment as Christians, since
  they lived in Christendom.

> Ideally, I'm looking for a Cults of Prax 
> of sorcery, but with all the other innovations that were in Gods of 
> Glorantha. And in long-form.

  What a great idea!  With lots of storyline included like the Vorosh and
  Paulis stuff.  And while we're at it, we can do a Cults of Sartar the
  same way, and maybe a Cults of the Lunar Empire.  And no, I'm NOT being
  sarcastic, dammit.  I'd *much* rather see any and all of these than more
  adventures, even one's of the quality of the Garhound Contest.  Though
  more adventures is better than nothing at all.

> The definition of an unaligned sorcerer is that he (or she) has no morals  
> - for he doesn't follow the Law of Malkion (or the Edict of Godunya, or the 
> Mechanical Principles of Mostal). Would you trust a guy who doesn't follow 
> any recognised morals? Are you sure he isn't going to Tap you when your 
> back is turned? Hey, he might be a Vadeli! Lock up your children, we all 
> know what the Vadeli do to them! 

  Actually, no I don't.  Could you please post some of it, it sounds
  interesting.  Especially since, according to the Genertela: Players Book,
  they might be the sorcerous type most likely encountered in a lot of
  places.  "... though originating in the Vadeli isles, pockets of Vadeli
  refugees live in almost every port in the world."  So why do you all
  (betrayed my Southern U.S. roots, there) act like they're the Nazi SS,
  Khmer Rhouge and IRS auditers all rolled into one?  Have I missed
  something?  Please, enlighten me, master. :-)

  (Actually, to an interested outsider, it appears opposite sides of this
  debate are arguing past each other.  The RQ4:Gang of Six are just saying
  the rule mechanics should'nt take into account the Malkioni and western
  culture to the exclusion of all the other sorcerous cultures.  And the
  TotRM crowd and others are unhappy with the current RQ4 Sorcery draft,
  and say say the Sorcery rules should help explain why western culture
  is what it is.  But both sides want a system based on Glorantha as it is
  known to be.)

  Now, go back to your respective corners, and at the sound of the bell,
  come out fighting.


  Random thought: in scouring all the Malkioni stuff I could find looking
  for Vadeli references, I noticed the following: "enter Solace in Glory"
  sounds very much like "enter soulless in Glory".  Another Greg Stafford
  pun, or a clue to his true feelings about Malkionism?  Only the Spider
  (*)  ZZ  []  (.)  @  e  K|  o8-  |>  oK  <><  )o  3  8  <|
  Dead men tell pretty good tales.
                  Daka Fal proverb
  |><|  +-  (|  >-  .:  K  *  =|=  <-  (O)  ( )  (o)  (|)  X-


Subject: OGRES
Message-ID: <>
Date: 13 Jun 93 17:16:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1054

{The following comes  from notes written by Paul Reilly and Finula
McCaul for Ogre  Pack. It isn't in any kind of finished format but we are
making it available now to counter those scurrilous accusations made by
Cacodaemon cultists and Orlanth sympathizers, as seen in Shadows  on the
Borderlands.  We want to Glorantha-ize it sometime and present it as an
internal Lunar Spoken Word document, but so many projects are going on that
we'll just present it in the basic form.}

Ogres are carnivorous mimics. By this I mean that they are  meat eaters
who imitate their prey. Ogres are found in most places where Humans live,
generally at a rate of about 1 Ogre per 1000 Humans. Areas with high
population densities are their preferred homes, but culls and outcasts are
often found in the wastelands.

In fact, it is these culls that most people think of when they hear the
word Ogre. It is these outcasts who preferentially worship Cacodaemon and
other foul gods, consort with chaotics and cannibals, and generally making
an all around indiscrete nuisance of themselves. They give Ogres a bad
name, but that's OK because they make such convenient fall guys when
someone makes a mistake and has to be covered for.

Where did they come from? There are many different myth tales, but
one of the most common says that the first men were of two tribes, the
Tribe of Law and the Tribe of Chaos. They were ruled by two brothers,
Zzabur and Wakboth. These were the only true Humans. Most of those who
live today and call themselves Men were made from animals, or from mud,
by Zzabur. This is why an Ogre is not a cannibal. The flesh he eats is not
the flesh of his own species, merely that of an animal that looks like him.   
   An Ogre' s attitude towards human life is much like that of the farmer
towards his pigs. He may be fond of them or he may be indifferent, but in
the end he knows that they are meant for dinner.

As one might suppose, the two tribes were often in conflict. Zzabur's
people, the Brithini, had made the false Men to be their slaves. The Tribe of
Chaos felt that these beings should be free to live as they wished. They
encouraged them to revolt and showed them how to live like real Men.

To escape the wrath of their cousins, the Ogres went to the new Men
and hid among them in the cities they had taught them to build. They hid
their nature and took their places in the societies that formed, both at the
top and bottom. Often they were nobles, knights and merchants. Even more
often they were surgeons, morticians, butchers and executioners.

The mud men tended to be sloppy and the animal men too prolific. Lest
they become verminous, the Ogres culled the weak, the stupid and the
irresponsible. In these early days Ogres were not required to eat human
flesh. That is a curse that was put upon them when they rebelled against
their own Lord, Wakboth.

How are they different? An Ogre is an obligate carnivore, completely
lacking the ability to digest vegetation. He eats a large meat meal once
every other day or so.

The most obvious point of physical difference is certainly the teeth.
The front teeth are much like those on a Human, but the molars of any full
blooded Ogre are sharp and jagged like a cat's.

Dissection reveals many more differences. Bone density is closer to
that of a Troll than a Human. The lower digestive tract is greatly
shortened, with the extra space being filled with extra abdominal muscles.
There tends to be very little body fat due to their high metabolic rate, but
there are smooth muscles which lie under the skin that can give the
impression of plumpness.

As far as general appearance is concerned, Ogres fall within the Human
range. They select for strength, speed, and handsomeness. They choose
cleverness and luck over intelligence. They tend towards large jaws and
thick skulls. The females are as large as the males.

 Ogres also have a chameleon-like ability to adapt their coloration to
that of their prey. A pair of blonde haired Ogres who move into a
community of black haired Humans will generally have black haired
children. Skin tone and eye color will also adjust. They refer to the adage
of "You are what you eat".

Social structure. No other warm blooded creature is as ruthless
towards it own young (broo excepted). This is because no other creature is
forced to prey on something that is so close to itself in mental and
physical abilities. Also, even a single rogue can lead to the discovery and
destruction of an entire clan.

Ogre children are trained from earliest childhood in how to live their
double lives. Competition never ceases. Failure can be fatal. Many Ogre
families do not assign permanent names to their children. When one is
deemed unfit, the others all move up a name. They deliberately have more
children than they need so that they can maintain their necessary

Ogres are born acting. Many countries use them as spies because of
their exquisite skill in living a double life.

Ogres have both Matriarchal and Patriarchal family structures.
Matriarchal families consist of a related group of females and their
children. These are females who have proven themselves superior enough
to resist Ogre marriage. Ogre marriage is a process of abduction and
indoctrination with never ending vigilance on both sides. The Patriarchal
groups generally center around several brothers who use group tactics to
acquire mates which they generally share. Females from Matriarchal
groups are the most highly prized of mates.

The most civilized of Ogres, those who live in areas where they are
accepted by the government, sometimes arrange marriage in a more human
fashion. Their leaders consider their daily work to be dangerous enough
that they can do without some of the dangers of courtship. These marriages
tend to be political alliances with good behavior on both sides being
important. This is also done when the Ogres of a region are becoming too
inbred. They will send an envoy to an unrelated group and arrange an
exchange for mutual advantage.

It is Ogre Courtship that most thoroughly reveals how different they
are from humans. Courtship kills more Ogres than anything but childhood.
The goal of the male is to capture the female, either for the short term or
the long term. The goal of the female is to kill the male. Any male who
cannot best her continually, mentally and physically, is unworthy to breed
and deserves to die. Nothing less can keep their species as strong as it
needs to be.

Female fatalities may also occur, and the cause is generally physical
frailty. If the female is not strong enough, her body may actually break
under the stress of mating. Ogres, like felines, require violent stimulus to
ovulate. This also prevents females from becoming pregnant through one of
their favorite prey acquisition strategies.

The strategies for prey acquisition and mate acquisition are very much
the same. They generally hunt members of the opposite sex. An individual
strong enough to resist having their spine snapped is probably a candidate
for a mate; otherwise they are food. Again we see the belief that the weak
cannot be allowed to live. The success of this strategy is obvious when one
looks at Ogre physical characteristics.

Where are they? Ogres are not difficult to find once you know where to
look. In any position which disposes of human bodies you will probably find
an Ogre. There are a disproportionate number among armies and mercenary
groups, where the food is free and plentiful. See who keeps volunteering
for burial detail. Cultures which favor the death sentence and amputation
for crimes generally have Ogres in charge. Likewise cultures with good
health care.

The Ogres that people knowingly encounter and live to tell about are
generally exiles. These are often excess males, sent out into the world to
improve themselves or die. They often become mercenaries or highwaymen.
If they can acquire enough wealth and respect they may but a wife from a
Patriarchal group. An exceptional male may even end up with several wives
who protect him.

Cult affiliations. Civilized Ogres fear Wakboth's son Cacadaemon, who
has the power to rob them of free will and expose them to the world. They
see Illumination as a godsend to protect them both from that ancestral
chaos, and the Storm Bulls who can smell it in them despite their best

Many cults have no objection to Ogres. All of the more bloody aspects of
Earth worship will welcome them. The forty-nine virgin cannibals who
guard the Queen of Esrolia certainly belong to this elite race.

Humakt appreciates their deadly instincts. To him they are among the
most pious of people.

All of the Lunar cults will accept Ogres who agree to abide by their
Civil and Religious law. Many take this path and work hard in the Lunar
service, striving towards Illumination.

Among the Malkioni, Ogres often practice sorcery. The Old Carmanian
nobility certainly held both Ogres and Vampires in its' ranks.

It is only among the more primitive peoples that Ogres are seldom seen.
They seek to avoid the keen senses of the primitive shamans who can see
their true nature.

Only about 5% of Ogres are actually born tainted by chaos. Of these,
only those with the most beneficial of features are allowed to live. Thus it
is that most cults are actually open to Ogres if they wish. Generally,
however, there are decided advantages to joining those of a more
bloodthirsty bent, or those who share the tolerance of the Lunars.

Hunting strategies. Males and females generally employ different
hunting strategies. The method used by the females has been successful for
them since before time, and it is likely to remain so for as long as
husbands cheat on their wives. Basically, the female will lure a solitary
male to an isolated and secure spot. Having first determined whether or
not anyone will miss him or knows his whereabouts, they will generally
have a sexual liason. This ensures that the individual will be unarmed and
unarmored. At the peak of this liason she kills him, generally by snapping
the spine, though any efficient method is allowed.

Specially trained assasins have been know to commit murder through
the mechanism of the kiss. They embrace their victim, kiss him deeply, and
bite of his tongue; all the while holding him too tightly to thrash. They
swallow the tongue and drink the blood until he is dead. They then gently
sit or lie him down as if resting, and make a quick getaway.

Males occasionally use the prostitute method. More often, however,
they simpley strike violently wherever they have a good opportunity. Often
they attack as family groups disguised as a gang. The disguise is important
in case of inadvertent witnesses.

In large cities Ogres often run crime rings and dispose of all bodies for
a small fee. Their main competition and fiercest enemies are, of course,
vampires. Vampires hunt the same food and often use the same tactics.
Thus they run into conflict. Wherever they meet they will fight to the
complete extermination or exile of one side. Assault on vampires is one of
the few things that will persuade Ogres to cooperate beyond their
immediate family ties.

Other occupations. Among the Illuminated an Ogre may progress far in
political hierarchies. Their predatory intensity makes them excellent
businessness. Their attention to detail and natural interest in people make
them very good at public service and entertainment positions. They make
excellent actors, circus performers, and stunt men.

Weakness. Due to a curse laid upon their race, an Ogre's body cannot
produce all the chemicals his brain needs to remain functional. They must
eat the brains of intelligent creatures periodically or the hunger will drive
them mad. This is a common occurrence among half-breeds who do not
understand their nature.

Civilized Ogres have a network to provide innocuous looking dietary
supplements to those of their fellows who do not participate in the food
procurement business. This makes it possible for an Ogre to live among
humans without killing.

In a day or so I will write a little more about playing Ogre characters.
Which cults to join, what skills to have, etc. I make no claim that this is
any more than a small part of the big picture, as explained by someone who
wants you to like them. But as a friend of mine says, anyone who plays an
Ogre as simply a hack and slash villain is missing most of the fun. They are
dynamic, fascinating, charismatic characters who live life on the edge.

More later, Comments welcome,

Finula McCaul


From: (Adrian Brownlow)
Subject: usual
Message-ID: <>
Date: 14 Jun 93 05:57:40 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1055

I had a rather nice curry last night a Chicken Brithini.

The reason noone knows where the invisible god was during god time is that he
was invisible then as well.


Subject: Elf bows and other missile weapons
Message-ID: <9306141331.AA01496@Sun.COM>
Date: 14 Jun 93 13:15:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1056

Argranth writes:
Wimpy Pointy Earred Flower Pressers, bow elf mark I upgrade.

Yeah, I agree that stronger elves should have stronger elf bows that do 
more damage and shoot further.  But, then so should stronger humans!  
On the subject of bows I am in the process of finalizing an article 
revising the missile rules for RQ to take into account range as well as 
target size and other factors.  David Hall is interested in publishing it 
in TotRM, but if alot of you clamour loudly I might send it here to be 
ripped appart by physicists and purists alike.  

To condense the relevant bits of my article for stronger bow users with 
strength adjusted bows raise damage by one for every 5 points of STR over 
the minimum requirement for the bow type.  This should please strong elves,
but STR 18 humans should not be disappointed.  I recommend raising the dice
size by one (ie. d8 becomes d10) rather than adding one to the damage.  Thus
impales automatically cause more damage under this system.  

On a related subject of longer bows are more efficient therefore SIZ should 
be included in figuring the increase in damage.  

i) Yes thats true and taller people can use longer bows.  
ii) The increase in efficiency is handy, but limb weight increases so that 
the acceleration of the limb decreases a bit lessening the benefits.  
iii) RQ SIZ is only loosely related to height so it cannot be used easily 
to calculate bow length.  
iv) Pretensing the bow can remove some of the inefficiencies of shorter bows.
v)Composite bows (other than oriental ones) are shorter than longbows but
still pack a hefty punch due to their stiff, yet light (often recurved) limbs.  
vi) All together factoring SIZ into bow rules is a complete can-of-worms and 
is best avoided altogether.  

Finally while we are talking about missile weapons.  Elves have got a much 
better deal in RQ3 than crossbow users.  All the crossbow ranges were lifted
out of Paladium's book of weapons, armour etc. and their definition of effective
range is not the same as that for the rest of the RQ3 missile weapons.  
Thus the crossbow which is at least as accurate a weapon as the bow has a 
riddiculously short effective range (I suggest doubling this for a quick fix).


Subject: rumours
Message-ID: <9306141331.AB01496@Sun.COM>
Date: 14 Jun 93 13:15:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1057

To: Graeme Lindsell
Subject Pamaltelans
Both the Basmoli Berserks and the Agimori originated in Pamaltela and 
some have now wound up in Genertela.  Of course they don't use sorcery
so no one is interested in them!!!!!!!

On a completely different subject.

The original number system used by dwarves was Octal (base 8), this has 
a direct mystical relationship with the workings of the World Machine.  
Heratic dwarves now use decimal due to corruption of their programming 
by the other degenerate races (who need to use their fingers to count)!