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Date: Tue, 15 Jun 93 17:15:22 +0200
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From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 15 Jun 1993, part 1
Precedence: junk
Status: O
The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.
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---------------------
From: carlf@Panix.Com (Carl Fink)
Subject: More sorcery, yet
Message-ID: <199306141759.AA26625@sun.Panix.Com>
Date: 14 Jun 93 09:59:20 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1058
To: runequest@glorantha.holland.sun.com
Subject: yet more sorcery
joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) writes:
R>Larger - I dont know. More homogenous - well, there are the unified
>cultures of Vormain and Kralorela, but the East Isles hardly are unified.
>Why should their sorcery be so?
Because all of these are fragments of the Empire of Vithaela, which
has withdrawn to Heaven. In origin, they're the same culture.
R>Why make Ethilrist a Brithini?
Because he *is*. Because in Greg's campaign, that's what Ethilrist's
background is.
>...The closest Brithini
>settlements are on the God Forgot Isles, Refuge and Casino Town are
>especially mentioned.
Yes, but remember Ethilrist entered Hell in one place and left in
another.
Tom Zunder asks:
R>Why aren't more chaotic sorcerors?
Off the top of my head: because sorcery is the most lawful way to use
magic. The rules are spelled out and strictly enforced. It's like
asking why so few bureaucrats are anarchists.
---------------------
From: peterw@computer-science.manchester.ac.uk (Peter Wake)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 14 Jun 1993, part 1
Message-ID: <9306141728.AA02145@r2k.cs.man.ac.uk>
Date: 14 Jun 93 17:27:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1059
On Runic Sorcery:
-----------------
It has been said by Greg that the runes as we know them are a god
learner construct. It follows that they invented them as a basis for
*their* magic system. This sytsem was destroyed methodically along
with the god-learners (though the runes remain). For this reason I
wouldn't expect to see any living Malkioni, Bithini or other Western
god-hating scum using runic sorcery. If you see someone who looks
like they're using runic sorcery then they're a god learner. Kill
them quick before you're tainted with their soul destroying knowledge.
- All Hail the Reaching Moon -
--
Peter Wake
---------------------
From: okamoto@hpcc90.corp.hp.com (Jeff Okamoto)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 14 Jun 1993, part 2
Message-ID: <9306141852.AA13134@hpcc90.corp.hp.com>
Date: 14 Jun 93 18:52:13 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1060
> From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
> Subject: Re: Sorcerers' cultures, archery
> Message-ID:
> Date: 13 Jun 93 10:04:37 GMT
> X-RQ-ID: 1051
>
> Did you make this logevity piece up as well as the Pharaoh bit, or do you
> base it on written evidence?
I don't know if Greg has ever published info on how the Pharaoh is immortal,
but when the current Pharaoh's body wears out, a great contest is held.
The participants are known as the Masters of Luck and Death (remember the
oft-promised Chaosium board game of the same name? This is it!). Depending
on which viewpoint you subscribe to, either the winner "becomes" the next
Pharaoh, or the winner's body is taken over the by Pharaoh. If the latter
is true, no mention is made of whether the Pharaoh and the consciousness
of the body merge, or the former replaces the latter.
Jeff
---------------------
From: tzunder@cix.compulink.co.uk (Tom Zunder)
Subject: Ogres
Message-ID:
Date: 14 Jun 93 21:48:22 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1061
I liked the Ogre write up a lot. I've always wondered how they really
exist. In this way they felt like the enemy within, very horrible. They
presumably comgregate in very high areas of population , so as to hide in
the masses.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Orlanth Rex! tzunder@cix.compulink.co.uk
--------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------
From: 100116.2616@CompuServe.COM (David Hall)
Subject: Rocky XX
Message-ID: <930614202541_100116.2616_BHJ24-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 14 Jun 93 20:25:42 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1062
Seconds out. Round 3.
Carl Fink:
>Yes, but only one of those islands is now Malkioni.
Dave dodges: Hey, who says? I thought the other three islands followed
other sects of Malkionism?
>And all those divine cults DON'T TEACH SPIRIT MAGIC. The non-Divine
portion of >their magic is (generally) sorcery.
Splat! Dave reels back and falls to the floor. He rises unsteadily: Hey,
but isn't that a kinda weird sort of sorcery. Not your mainstream stuff
really.
Curtis Shenton:
>A book on Sorcery would be very nice. But I'm not sure how much can be
>done in the basic RQIV rules. All I know is that I don't want to see it
>biased towards anyone sorcery culture. I know many cultures will require
>some modifications to the rules to make them work right. BUt you
>shouldn't ahve to first remove the Malkioni rules and then add the
>Eastern sorcery rules, you should just be able to add the eastern part
>directly if you see what I mean.
Unfortunately I suspect we'll never really understand the nuances of
Eastern Isles and Kralori sorcery until there is an essay/special pack that
explains just how the sorcery rules interact with the divine magic rules in
their culture. Otherwise there is the danger of hundreds of powerful
sorcerers running around on each island frustrating the PC's.
I seem to be Malkioni-centric because I believe that the original RQ3
sorcery rules came from Malkioni roots - initially from Charlie Krank's
Wizards of the West campaign. And not from the dwarves, or the Kralori, or
the Eastern Isles. I reckon that the sorcery rules, in combination with the
other two magic systems, have since been used to try and explain the unique
Dragon magic of Kralorela, the magic of East Isles, Dwarven mechanics, and
Carmanian Lunar magic. But I think the roots still lie with Malkionism, and
that the sorcery rules alone still work best in a Malkioni environment.
I'm of the opinion that the example sect in the RQ4 book (because I admit
that we can't have the Sects of Malkion book in RQ4) should be the White
Wyzards of Seshnela. To me they are the closest to pure Malkionism, and so
the pure sorcery rules work best for them.
Brithini:
Their atheism isn't liberating, in fact it is the opposite. They are the
most conservative people in Glorantha - probably because they've got the
most to lose if they change their ways. Their worship is based around
archaic and inefficient rituals and laws that they dare not break for fear
of mortality.
I therefore don't see them like I do unaligned sorcerers, since they are
part of a large group that acts to all intents and purposes like a
religious sect.
Boris and the Vadeli:
They are an off-shoot of the Brithini, originally a Brithini heresy. They
are immortal as well. As to why everyone hates them I will not say. It is
too horrific and disgusting for me to contemplate. You have sentenced me to
nightmares tonight just by writing about it. Only Nick Brooke is depraved
enough to be able to cope with the full knowledge - ask him.
"Enter Soulless and Gory" - I like it.
Joerg Baumgartner:
>Fonrit does have sorcery, but that seems to have been imported by the God
>Learners. After these were wiped out, their lesser disciples seem to have
>remained, and are now unaligned - sorry, David.
Don't apologise, just quote us your source!
>Well, there are the Mostal-worshipping humans of Slon who ought to be real
>fun to play. Then there's that dwarf band from ES some people might want
>to encounter. And Slon seems to be very large.
Wow! Real fun playing a slave. Are you into bondage?
Ah hah, Slon only *seems* to be very large! ... I'm getting more pathetic,
yes?
>Why exclude the Carmanians?
Because in my book they are not Malkioni. The rituals have been screwed
around by the Red Goddess so that she now sits in the Invisible God's
place. In the rituals you no longer just need faith, you can actually see
the Goddess if you are lucky one holy day.
The Invisible God cannot exist side-by-side with the Red Goddess because
she is supreme. Another source of power, or source of discontent, cannot be
countenanced. The Red Goddess binds people to her by their worship of her,
or their worship of other gods bound to her or her son. E.g. the Red
Emperor binds the Dara Happans by being the the rightful Emperor of Dara
Happa through his completion of the Ten Tests of Empire set down by Yelm.
---------------------
From: JOVANOVIC@CUCCFA.CCC.COLUMBIA.EDU
Subject: Sorcery in Glorantha
Message-ID: <930614190911.45a7@CUCCFA.CCC.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Date: 14 Jun 93 15:09:11 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1063
David, some additional details, so you can see where
I'm coming from -
With respect to Malkioni - I exclude the Brithini and Vadeli,
since they are atheists and at best seem to pay lip service to
Malkion and the Invisible God, and also the Stygians and
Carmanians, as Malkion and the Invisible God seem to treated
as anything ranging from the head of a pantheon to an equal
among others to an inferior (what seems to have occured in
Carmania and in some extreme Stygian sects) - I suspect if you
looked at individual Stygian groups some might qualify
as Malkioni and some would not.
The cults of the East Isles grant divine magic but use
sorcery instead of cult spirit magic (the Kralori
may function in a similar fashion).
With respect to Pamaltela, the human portions of Umathela
are dominated by Malkioni, but Fonrit and the human portions
of the Maslo peninsula seem to be dominated by non-Malkioni
sorcerers (the Fonritians sorcerers appear to be either
unaligned or also worship the local cults, the humans of
Maslo distrust gods and avoid worshipping them as much as
possible).
With respect to Carmania - the information presented there
was the most recent (as of 1992) information we could
get from Greg, primarily through Phil Davis, who was
kind enough to ask him for additional details, some
of which supercede (or contradict) those of the unpublished
Invisible God writeup, which I think originated in the mid
eighties. The newer information seemed to indicate that
the Invisible God had simply been assigned a subsidiary
role in the culture, which was now dominated by the cults
of the Lunar pantheon. Previously the cults of the Orlanth
pantheon had been at first treated as inferiors, then slowly
began to grow in power and influence, until their defeat at
the hands of the Lunar Empire, at which point the Lunar
pantheon became dominant. Also, while the _unpublished_
Invisible God writeup dismisses the Carmanians, the
_published_ material in the Glorantha set specifically
refers to the Carmanian Heresy as being extant. As
best as we can tell, it is the most current information
available. Frankly, I fully expect it to change as Greg
continues to develop the Lunar Empire and people such as
Nick develop the region. If you have any ideas on how to add
depth, culture or clarify it, I'd be very interested - we'd
be very interested in getting Nick's input on Carmania as
well.
I think you're quite correct - a book such as "Sects of
the West" (a la Cults of Prax) would be fantastic, but
it would take an entire book to do justice to the region.
What I think RQIV should do is present the basic rules
for sorcery, publish a sample sect (much as RQ2 presented
the cult of Orlanth), then let later publications on the
West futher detail the various schools. Considering how
litte we know about the West, and that we'd want the basic
sorcery rules to work for Malkioni, Carmanians, atheists,
Brithini, Mostali, Vadeli and Kralori alike, I think we
have to be careful about how to do this - I think that a
sect system, where the additional description in the
sect describes unique spells and manipulations, spell
names used, prohibited spells and manipulations and the
social role of the sect is the way to go - this is a
model similar to how cult descriptions currently function,
and they seem to be fairly successful. More social
information would be very useful - this is something
generally lacking from the divine cult writeups as well,
but to a certain extent this is because it really isn't
available yet - as Carmania is developed, hopefully this
will become available.
Unaligned sorcerers - here I have to disagree - a number
of human cultures exist that use unaligned sorcery (God Forgot
and Fonrit come to mind), and I think there is a role in
Glorantha for the solitary independent researcher or hermetic
mage. Of course they won't be welcome in barbaric cultures
such as Sartar, but even so I suspect an unaligned sorcerer
that kept his (or her) mouth shut would do better in Sartar
than a Seven Mothers or Malkioni missionary. The witch hunting
analog suggested by Jeorg strikes me as apt. However, I think
they could manage fairly well in a number of cultures -
the Lunar Empire strikes me as an open, accepting and
civilized culture - if they accept broo and tentacled
gladiators, I sincerly doubt they would have much trouble
with an unaligned sorcerer. As for the West, most of the
Malkioni sects seem to consider each other heretics, and
yet they manage to coexist - I doubt an unaligned sorcerer
would be considered much worse than another heretic (or
a Brithini) there. The Glorantha book, under Carmania,
mentions the use of unaligned sorcery in Carmania.
Jeorg -
You're quite correct - I think the different sects of
sorcery should vary in spell selection and availability,
manipulations used, and form of familiars used, not to
mention the role their sorcery plays in the society the
sect belongs to.
With respect to the origin of humanity according to the
Brithini, what I've heard is that the Brithini claim
that they are the only true humans, other races of
humanity are degenerates that interbred with beasts
or the descendants of beasts that tried to assume human
form (the Hsunchen).
I assume you meant to say Umathelan sorcery was Rokari
dominated, correct?
With respect to Kralori sorcery being unified, that's why
I specifically only referred to Kralorela and the Kingdom
of Ignorance - I think you'll see far more variation in
the East Isles in terms of what sorts of sorcery they use.
I actually think the Vormain have diverged even further,
as each priestly caste appears to use a unique color magic
seen nowhere else in Glorantha.
Sir Ethelrist a Brithini - this is based on comments by
Sandy Peterson (which may or may not be correct). My
understanding was that Sir Ethelrist and the Black Horse
Troop were Brithini (or very close), but that Muse Roost
was built on an Arkati holy spot, and has Arkati living
there and Arkati visitors as a consequence. Also, an
interesting side note - anyone think that Sir Ethelrist
may have originally come from Pamaltela? The reference
to his West Jungle origins might make sense if he originally
came from a Brithini (or Malkioni) colony in Umathela.
Unaligned sorcery vs. atheists - the difference was minor -
more like an agnostic vs. an atheist - I saw an unaligned
sorcerer as a sorcerer that might worship or pay tribute
to a local god or a cult member that practiced sorcery
(such as a Chalana Arroy healer) but whose sorcery was
not really related to their worship (unlike the East
Isles).
Tom -
As best as I can make out, sorcery seems to have a strong
association with logic, reasoning and law - e.g. the Kingdom
of Logic, Brithini, the Invisible God, the God Learners,
Mostali, etc. - that may be why it is less popular amongst
chaotics.
Maurice -
"Enter soulless in Glory" - very nice.
Adrian -
Actually, I think you're quite correct -
I believe there is a good chance that the Invisible
God was a fairly recent development (in the Godtime
scale of things) - possibly a replacement for the
World Machine, which was broken when its main pillar
was shattered by Chaos.
Oliver
---------------------
From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Pithdaros, Harreksaga, & how to treat Intellectuals
Message-ID: <930614225624_100270.337_BHB43-3@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 14 Jun 93 22:56:24 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1064
________________________________________
Lord Lurker in Shadows / David Scott
says re: the Black Knights of Pithdaros:
> I assume they are from Pithdaros mentioned on p.83 of Glorantha
> Book 2 (Seshnela); the knights bit might be a Nick Brooke legend.
> What about it, Nick?
Yup. My fault again. Think about it, guys: we have a unique colony of
dark-skinned Agimori from the south, settling in a feudal region of the
West -- of course they're going to be called "Black Knights".
(I can't be the only person who explores Glorantha through puns).
I don't know *why* they're there: I doubt it's "political correctness". It
may be an attempt by Greg to remind us of the Seshnegi links to Pamaltela
in the Second Age; it may be just a spot of local colour for the Duchy
of Nolos; it may be to simulate those Saracen Knights from Arthurian legend
(Palomides et al.), or the peculiar speculations a' la "Holy Blood and Holy
Grail" / "Knights Adventurous" about ethnic diversity in southern France
(how's about Nolos = Provence, anyone?). I'm quite taken with the thought
of an Old Etonian gentleman knight of Pithdaros (cf. T.H.White's Palomides)
heading south now the seas have opened to visit the Old Country...
Or it may tie in to "Harreksaga" somehow -- cf. Hunralki in the Southern
text of the "Annotated Argrath's Saga" (TEXTUAL NOTE: I find it weird that
only the Southern version mentions Hunralki on p.21, but only the Northern
version mentions him on p.38). Does this mean the Agimori get unexpected
backing from Jolar and take over in Nolos? Is this in fact a vicious
allegory for immigration -- "rivers of blood", etc?? (Or was it just
Harrek sacking another city for the hell of it?).
A Note on "Harreksaga": we KNOW from internal evidence that the Fourth Age
compiler of "King of Sartar", one Greg Stafford, is familiar with the
contents of "Harreksaga" (cf. p.21 n.33; p.38 n.137). Perhaps we can hope
for a redaction of it some day -- though it's unlikely ever to come out in
its proper form, a range of cheap paperbacks with Frank Frazetta covers...
"Harrek the Plunderer", "Harrek the Destroyer", "Harrek the Wolf Pirate",
"Harrek the Berserk", "Harrek the King", etc. Someone ought to write up a
Howardian extract from one of these, one of these days...
(What's the proper literary form for Jar-eel's exploits? Any ideas?)
By the way, David, I share your joy at the turn the Sorcery discussion has
taken. Amazing what you can do just by sticking your neck out, isn't it?
___________________
Lewis Jardine says:
> So Thurla is just a more successful example of the typical,
> untrustworthy, God-Learner, bastard who pretends to worship
> Issaries in order to cover their foul, necromatic, blood
> sucking, twisted evil ways. Not that I have a very strong
> opinion on the matter.
Just as well, really! My monitor almost cracked from that sally...
I'm philosophically allied to Lewis, here. Not being a powergamer, I
prefer to see Glorantha through the eyes of ordinary folk. If you can
condition yourself to feel a skin-creeping revulsion whenever anyone starts
acting in a God Learner way, you're doing well. Threats of tar and
feathers fly around the room when our gaming sessions lapse into
speculation. My last Lhankor Mhy character got off lightly -- he was just
punched in the face by ignorant barbarians every time he ventured a
suggestion as to what we were facing in a Steve Thomas scenario. They
started off quite reasonably:
NICK: "Might not that strange island be the floating land of
Kylerela,
said to be inhabited by the beautiful Kylie, a demigoddess from
the Southern Continent, which is eternally sought by Jason,
heroic follower of Dormal?" ... [THUD!].
Then they got more short-tempered:
NICK: "Ah, I see, it's a metaphor for industrialisation -" [SMASH!].
By the end, I hardly dared open my mouth:
NICK: "But -" [CRUNCH!].
The leading light of this anti-intellectual movement was our very own David
Hall, for what it's worth... (*AND* I was right about that metaphor!)
Oh, speaking of David:
> We once had a Heortlander (a worshipper of Saint Orlanth of the
> Aeolian Church) in the group, but he died - his manners were atrocious.
Young Cadwyn had the most courtly manners the folk in Greydog Village had
ever seen! It's just a shame he had a Prince Valiant pageboy haircut, wore
tight hose, and thought the "King of the Rainbow Mounds" was a magical
ruler from under the green fairy mounds of the North, with vast
feasting-halls and hordes of dwarf servants crafting magic weapons for
him... Brutally reft from civilised Ivanhoe Country to a small village of
indomitable Sartarites, it's hardly surprising he didn't last long.
Cheers,
====
Nick
====
---------------------
From: prharmaty@aol.com
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Characters
Message-ID: <9306142043.tn33475@aol.com>
Date: 15 Jun 93 00:43:49 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1065
Re: Historical RQ / David Hall.
My characters are also mostly married with children. Though they tend
to get out a bit more than the usual farmer/herder. We've been playing about
a year in this setting (ten years on Glorantha). The goal is to give the
loyal Sartarites a reason to dislike the Lunars. It's all well and good to
tell players their characters hate the Lunar Empire and its ways, it's a bit
more difficult to actually give them motives and valid reasons for their
dislike.
I'm interested in reading about how others have portrayed the hatred /
distrust that exists between the Orlanthi / Sartarites and the Lunar citizens
/ army. How have you fleshed out the cultural differences?