(Message rqd:32)
Return-Path:
Received: from Holland.Sun.COM (sunnl) by homeland.Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1)
id AA10084; Tue, 15 Jun 93 17:16:42 +0200
Received: from glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM by Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1e)
id AA17322; Tue, 15 Jun 93 17:16:35 +0200
Received: by glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1)
id AA02141; Tue, 15 Jun 93 17:15:49 +0200
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 93 17:15:49 +0200
Message-Id: <9306151515.AA02141@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM>
From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 15 Jun 1993, part 2
Precedence: junk
Status: O
The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.
Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM",
they will automatically be included in a next issue. Try to change the
Subject: line from the default Re: RuneQuest Daily... on replying.
Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest. If you
want to submit articles to the Digest only, contact the editor at
RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM.
Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor:
RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld)
---------------------
From: marks@slough.mit.edu (Mark S. c/o Tom Yates)
Subject: Misc. Comments
Message-ID: <9306150053.AA11743@Sun.COM>
Date: 15 Jun 93 00:55:55 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1066
Chaotic Question
>Why aren't more chaotic sorcerers?
'Cause using sorcery involves the Laws of the universe,
something chaotic creatures might not be good at? Besides, a
high degree of social development is needed to for a civilization
to have magical specialists like sorcerers. A chaotic sorcerer
is most likely a human who has gone bad, although there are
definitely other possibilities.
Finula and Paul's Ogre Writeup
I found your description of ogres disgusting both morally
and aesthetically. It has the common fannish flaw of describing
a race, or cult, or secret society so superior that they should
have long ago taken over the known universe. If it was actually
published, however, I'd expect that it would sell well. Vampire
The Masquerade has proved that there are lots of people who get
there kicks taking on the role of "supermen" who prey on
humanity.
Who are Sorcerers
> From Carl Fink: Um, David, *most* sorcery users on Glorantha
>are NOT Malkioni. The Dwarfs, Kralori, East Islanders, many
>Pamaltelans, and some trolls use sorcery, and have nothing to do
>with Malkion.
Maybe he was confused by the Glorantha book, which states
that "Aside form the dwarves and a few minor atheistic cultures,
the Malkioni are the only practicing sorcerer culture in
Glorantha." Given that sorcery IS used in other societies, this
suggests that there is a real difference between merely having
some sorcery around, and being a sorcerous society.
>This doesn't work in the West though, especially in Seshnela. I
>can't see why the Sorcerers continue to obey their Lords. Their
>magical powers are completely unrelated to their priesthoods,
>under the current sorcery rules (RQIII and the draft RQIV I
>can't see the Seshneli culture lasting beyond the ArchBishop of
>their church getting the Immortality spell. The first argument
>between him and the (magically useless) King will get you a dead
>King IMHO.
Yeah, but what if the material component of the Gloranthan
sorcerous immortality spell is the freely given blessing of the
rightful king of your society? Or if some knights in magic proof
unenchanted iron armor come to rid the king of a turbulent
priest. In any event, I think there is a lot more going on in
Malkioni societies than the taste we have had in the sorcery
rules. You are right to say that we will need more information.
I really doubt, for example, that the King of Seshnela is
magically useless. Why do you think Jonat heroquested in
Seshnela before founding his kingdom?
Oliver's Comments
> the sorcery rules should deal with the sorcerers one will meet
>in the developed regions. In order of likelihood, that would
>appear to be:
>1) Carmanians (occupying forces, settlers in Prax, Lunar Empire,
Aren't they a Malkioni sect?
>2) Arkati (Muse Roost, Dagori Inkarth trolls, Shadowlands
>trolls, Holy Country)
The Arkati trolls population of these areas is so
negligeable that Arkat doesn't even rate a mention on their
regional cult table in Troll Gods.
3) Unaligned sorcerers (occupying forces, Lunar Empire, Carmania)
I'd like to third the motion that unaligned sorcerers are
dumb. Especially if the unaligned sorcerers are allowed to join
Lunar Cults. Want to see something gross? Take an unaligned
sorcerer and enroll her in the Seven Mothers. Add illumination,
and membership in the Cult of the Red Goddess. You now have a
sorcerer who can cast divine magic (within the glowline) more
effectively than any other priest, and whose Lunar magic allows
her to cast spirit magic with far more power and flexibility than
any mere shaman. If you make her an ogre as well, you'd have a
real Red Moonchkin.
>4) Atheists (God Forgot, Orathorn in the Wastes)
>5) Kralori (Pavis, Kralorela)
>8) Invisible Orlanth (Carmania, Lunar Empire)
Well, if you include the Manaria, all of the Lunar Empire,
and Kralorela in the "developed regions" then your definition of
developed regions seems to be "all of Genertela, except the West"
>Kralori traders visit Pavis regularly
Why? Not enough dried fish or mock pork in Kralorela?
Everyone knows that Kralorela produces the best of everything,
what goods could they possibly want from the pitiable
barbarians? And how do they get there? Kralorian merchants do
sail regularly as far as Teshnos, but Corflu hardly seems likely
to entice them further. Especially with those nasty Wolf Pirates
off the coast. Crossing the wasteland in a slow merchant caravan
would be suicidal, even diregarding the nomads who would as soon
kill as look at you.
>Malkioni seem to have very little to do with this region.
>About the only Malkioni in the area might be the Trader Princes
>of theHoly Country, and they seem to come across more as Arkati
>than traditional Malkioni
According to the Maniria description, Heortland "has many
western influences" and the trader princes "practice Malkionism"
Richard the Tiger-Hearted came from Tansior, leading "Malkioni
Adventurers".
Nick on Sorcery
Although it may seem unusual, I've agree with most of what
you've said lately about sorcery and the West. Just a few
quibbles for old time's sake. I've seen the Rokari/Hrestoli
split as a continuation of the first age Seshnelan conflict
between the Linealists and Idealists, as opposed to a the result
of an early third age "heresy/reformation". By the by, is there
any primary source reason to believe that an actual "Rokar"
existed. After all, the names of movements (or cities, ect) are
not always based on those of Heros, even in Glorantha.
Tom Zunder
I enjoyed reading the "Earth Priestess and the Earrings"
-Mark Sabalauskas
---------------------
From: mace@lum.asd.sgi.com (Rob Mace)
Subject: various replys
Message-ID: <9306150153.AA03660@lum.asd.sgi.com>
Date: 14 Jun 93 11:53:10 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1067
David Hall writes:
> What is required is the same approach as with Shamanistic spirit cults and
> Pantheonistic religions/cults. Basic generic sorcery rules should exist,
> but they cannot just be presented standalone as they were in RQ3. Each
> sorcery sect or group will use those rules in a different way: by having a
> different spell list, different attitudes to who can use sorcery (or who
> goes to heaven, or attitudes to women, or worship of icons, etc.), or even
> a weird and unique type of magic. Ideally, I'm looking for a Cults of Prax
> of sorcery, but with all the other innovations that were in Gods of
> Glorantha. And in long-form.
There can't just be different spell lists for the different sorcery groups.
There needs to be some reason why each group gets limited to that set of
spells. The divine magic spell lists have the simple reason that that is
what the god can/will provide. If sorcery is more of a technology then
their must be reasons why that tech does not spread. I know groups will
work to protect their secrets but as long as a single individual can hold
some set of knowledge it is very difficult to keep it from spreading. Also
if you as a GM are not blessed with players that have no power gamer aspects,
they will try to find ways to get the set of spells they want. This can be
tough for less experienced GMs to deal with.
Seeing how poorly the RQ3 bit about sorcerers and cultist do not work
together because they disbelieve/distrust/hate/etc. each other has worked,
I think something a bit stronger is needed. PCs often tend toward pragmatism.
------------
Curtis Shenton writes:
> A book on Sorcery would be very nice. But I'm not sure how much can be
> done in the basic RQIV rules. All I know is that I don't want to see it
> biased towards anyone sorcery culture. I know many cultures will require
> some modifications to the rules to make them work right. BUt you
> shouldn't ahve to first remove the Malkioni rules and then add the
> Eastern sorcery rules, you should just be able to add the eastern part
> directly if you see what I mean.
I think it would be good if the rules were generic to Gloranthan sorcerers
and then an example group like the Malkioni was given and you could see how
the rule were expanded/modified for them. This would be much like the
cult stuff in RQ2.
------------
Paul Reilly and Finula McCaul's Ogre stuff:
Great stuff.
------------
Arganth writes about some combat stuff I posted:
> What I had in mind was more like the 3m pike used in the English Civil
> war. I find it difficult to believe you could 'simply move a hand to
> near the point and use it as a short unbalanced thrusting
> weapon'.Besides, when I say point blank I mean grappling, body to body,
> which would not leave enough room to move a pike even if you did have
> your hand near the point. He continues...
My point was that you are not at zero chance to hit. And since I have
done it and seen it done with a pike of about 3m then I know it can be
done. I am not saying that it is easy but it is a lot better then just
waiting around for your opponent to get through your parry. Disengaging
to full pike range is a lot harder. Here is how it might be done against
someone using a broad sword.
When your opponent gets inside your range charge forward sliding your
hand up the shaft of the pike. You might have to basically throw your
pike backwards as you do this. The idea here is to move inside your
opponents optimum range since they are already inside yours. You want
to choke up on the pike until it is the about short sword length.
When you contact your opponent you need to press your off weapon hand
shoulder into the upper arm of their sword arm. This makes it hard
for them to get an effective blow in. If you can't get your shoulder
against their arm you can also press their shield and hide behind it.
You hold your weapon hand back and low behind your self and thrust as
you have or make openings. Since you are pressed against them they
have a hard time seeing your thrusts. If they decide to backup quickly
to try and get away from your press you might be able to change course
actually disengage.
Anyway you will probably die but at least you have a chance. Also
melee situations change all this quite a bit. To avoid this type of
situation I generally carry a light mace or short sword as backup.
Sometimes I will intentionally let someone charge past my spear or
pike time just to meet them up close with the mace. Doing what is
not expected plays a big part in winning a combat.
> This much I do concede. I like John Medway's idea of no parry and
> holding the shield fixed so it covers locations like in missile combat.
As long as your opponent can move it is almost impossible to immobilize a
shield purely by pressing. The only way is to grab it with one of your
weapons or your shield and then you are giving up the use of that your
self. You might want to do this for a second or so, but generally not
longer.
Rob Mace
---------------------
From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Subject: Garhound Contest results
Message-ID: <01GZB6UMGJNQ91VTVS@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au>
Date: 13 Jun 93 11:38:30 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1068
A while back I wondered who the winners were in the Garhound Contest.
Thanks to those who responded: I thought I might summarize the
results I've received....
Winner:
Stickklebrixx (PC Storm Bull came second; Carylon Squally came last)
Stickklebrixx (with 18 PCs also in the running!)
Stickklebrixx (Cary came second - dejected, he joined the PCs and
died at Rabbit Hat Farm!)
Carylon Squally
Vathmar Allweather
Vathmar Allweather
Promidius
PC Yelmalio (Jarst Daro second)
PC Yelmalio
PC Storm Bull (all the NPCs coming in pretty much down the field)
PC Storm Bull
PC Orlanthi (PC Orlanthi second; Promidius third)
With a slight bias to Stickklebrixx (actually based on a PC from
an old campaign - and a real Son of a Bull), he is probably the one
to put your wager on.
I wonder whoUll win the Contest this year, and the lovely hand of
Chamilla Squally (youngest sister of last year's contender
Carylon Squally)?
What tricks might Sor Eel play this year to confound Sir Davis
Garhound? (rumour has it ChamillaUs father is a secret convert to
the Lunar religion).
MOB
---------------------
From: gal502@cscgpo.anu.edu.au (Graeme A Lindsell)
Subject: Re: Message to GL
Message-ID: <9306150443.AA23429@cscgpo.anu.edu.au>
Date: 15 Jun 93 19:44:55 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1069
>
> From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
> Date: 14 Jun 93 13:15:00 GMT
>
> To: Graeme Lindsell
> Subject Pamaltelans
> Both the Basmoli Berserks and the Agimori originated in Pamaltela and
> some have now wound up in Genertela. Of course they don't use sorcery
> so no one is interested in them!!!!!!!
a) I know.
b) Unless I have recently developed schizophrenia I haven't asked any
questions on this list about Basmoli Beserks or the Agimori with regard
to sorcery. Probably a From: line has been deleted somewhere. I suspect
your comment should be directed to someone else.
Re: Stuff on Ogres: nice to see a bit of background. I'm not sure the
thing about brain chemistry is needed though. All you have to say is
"they are under a curse from Wakboth". The brain chemistry stuff would
be good for a non-gloranthan setting.
Why didn't AH want to print it? The only reason I can think of is that
Ogres are a fairly minor race, and they have a limited editorial staff.
There are a lot of more important things to cover. Try re-submitting it
after some of the civilized areas (like the Lunar Empire) have been
covered, or try TOTRM to see if they want to print the background.
Trollpak is a bit like that: we know more about trolls than almost any
other culture on Glorantha. My conclusion was that I didn't really like
trolls, and wouldn't really want PC trolls in any party I GMed. I'm not
sure we really needed Trollpak while there was so much we didn't know
about Sartar, the Lunars, the West, the Holy Country...
That said, it's always nice to know some more about enemy species. I
take it that Ogres won't eat Brithini, thought I doubt they like each
other. Perhaps Zzabur has cast spells that keep ogres out of Brithini
lands, or Brithini sorcerers have spells like "Detect Ogre", "Repel
Ogre" and "Instantly Kill Ogre"...
Interesting that their myths say that Zzabur runs the Brithini. I've
always wondered whether he takes any orders, or just gives them, and
if the Brithini immortality is just a spell he worked to keep his
relatives alive.
Re: the Malkioni. Some have questioned whether we need to know that
much about them. I think we do, mainly because the three main cultures
of western Genertela are Orlanthi, Lunar and Malkionist. Once these
three cultures and religions are described everywhere west of Prax
is covered: the Genertela pack gives us geography and history, we
just need longer write-ups of the religions and cultures, and we have
enough to play anywhere.
All of this IMHO, of course.
Graeme Lindsell a.k.a gal502@huxley.anu.edu.au
---------------------
From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
Subject: God Learners, Mythology and Us!
Message-ID: <9306151318.AA27765@Sun.COM>
Date: 15 Jun 93 13:15:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1070
Reference: X-RQ-ID: 1032
Who cares whether all the God Learner's disciples were wiped out?
Because, we all know that some of them are alive now and using this net!
Seriously do you realize that all of us interacting on this net is
effectively a HeroQuest which is affecting the mythology of Glorantha
by our collective decisions about the nature of things
(especially with regards to sorcery and Malkioni society).
MORAL:- If you desire a particular outcome it is imperative that
you fight for it here on the Hero Plane, or you will lose it forever
when AH or GS prints what we have decided.
Of course you might be lucky and mythology might resent these God Learners
interferring and reject them all.
Selwi Jerandi
---------------------
From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Subject: Sorcery (yawn!)
Message-ID: <01GZFBR3GEBQ91W7S2@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au>
Date: 16 Jun 93 10:42:56 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1071
Sorcery (yawn!)
The level of debate on this thorny topic indicates to me that nobody's
going to be satisfied whatever the Gang of Six do with the new sorcery
rules in RQ4. (By the way, Gang of 6? - I thought it was a Gang of 4,
later 5: why not go for broke and make it a Gang of Seven, then we can
all try to work out who the Ginna Jar/She Who Waits member is).
RQ4 is supposed to be coming out mid-next year and there are lots of
other issues and problems in it that also need ironing out (the fact
that many playtesters have found the combat rules overly mechanistic
for one). Is there time to get the rest of RQ4 right, *and* resolve
the problems with sorcery satisfactorily as well? 12 months (probably
less) is not a long time to accomplish all this, so I doubt it...
This isn't the first time I have made the suggestion, but I think that
the sorcery rules should be completely dropped from the RQ4 book.
Sorcery rules cannot be successfully presented without their social
context, as the RQ3 experience shows, and to do the social context
justice, more space than the RQ4 book could permit would be needed.
In fact, what is needed is a seperate "Sorcery Book", where the topic
can be covered comprehensively and at leisure. The argument of whether
to cover the Malkioni to the exclusion of the Kralori wouldn't apply,
as we could cover 'em all in this book.
I am not suggesting that the Gang of 4/5/6/7 drop their work on
sorcery, merely that there need not be the imperative to get everything
right about it in the short time before they must present their final
RQ4 draft. The RQ4 book need only have a small boxed section at the
end of the magic chapter that mentions sorcery and where it is used
in very general terms, and announcing the impending publication of
the sorcery supplement. Players new to RQ won't feel hard done by, as
they'll have the rest of the RQ-Glorantha rules to go wild about (remember
when you bought your first copy of RQ2, and it had enough in its 120
pages to keep you going for months or even *years*?). And us
hardened RuneQuesters won't be too put out either, as at least we'll
know that a pig's ear won't be made of the sorcery rules (again) in
an effort to meet the publication deadline of RQ4.
Joerg B. writes:
>>...But we got to have some sorcery in the basic RQ4 rules, else
>>AH would copy TSR politics. We all like that compan, do we?
I don't get what you're on about here?
_________________________
---------------------
From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Subject: Player Characters I Have Known
Message-ID: <01GZFBSWIEN091W7S2@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au>
Date: 16 Jun 93 10:44:30 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1072
_________________________
Player Characters:
In the campaign I'm currently involved in, we're actually using
the pregenerated characters out of River of Cradles, believe it or
not! I'm playing the Chalana Arroy healer, who has recently become
quite enthusiastic about the ..er, "therapeutic" qualities of Hazia.
The campaign before that lasted about 3 years, and we played Lunars;
all members of the same family - actually, two intermarried families,
the Raynors and the Whydeds. The noble Raynor family had been elevated
to the aristocracy two generations back, whereas the decadent Whydeds
were impoverished nobs of impressive lineage who worship their more
exulted ancestors (Jaxarte from my yarns in ToTRM is a Whyded).
I played Jaxarte's kid sister Marion, a Teelo Norri novice (not
unlike the nun Mellissa in the ToTRM Chaos Feature's story "Jaxarte
and the Chaos Fiends", except that Marion was eventually chucked out
of her order - no, not for breaking her vow of sexual continence, but
for other misdemeanours). Other PCs included several YT cultists, a
Lunar Humakti, a Daka Fal shaman (they actually have these sort of
guys in civilised places - they just don't stick chicken bones
through their noses or dress up in dirty skins), and the sort of
unaligned sorcerer that Dave Hall would have cheerfully burned!
The campaign was a long struggle for the Raynors to regain their
position as hereditary governors of Joranit, and the city's
rivalry with neighbouring Elz Ast (culminating in the impending
visit of the Crimson Bat on its way to the Redland: the PCs were
the Joranit delegation who had to convince the Bat cult to stop-over
in Elz Ast instead of their city; of course, there was an Elz Ast
delegation trying to do the reverse!)
MOB