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From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 16 Jun 1993, part 3
Precedence: junk
Status: OR
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, Sorcery, and little else
Message-ID:
Date: 16 Jun 93 08:59:41 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1083
We got our headload of sorcery, and we even got some compromises, I like to
think.
__________________________
Carl Fink in X-RQ-ID: 1058
(>>=me)
>>Larger - I dont know. More homogenous - well, there are the unified
>>cultures of Vormain and Kralorela, but the East Isles hardly are unified.
>>Why should their sorcery be so?
> Because all of these are fragments of the Empire of Vithaela, which
> has withdrawn to Heaven. In origin, they're the same culture.
Yes, in origin. But that lies more than 1600 years back, I reckon.
>>...The closest Brithini
>>settlements are on the God Forgot Isles, Refuge and Casino Town are
>>especially mentioned.
> Yes, but remember Ethilrist entered Hell in one place and left in
> another.
What do you mean by that answer?
___________________________
Peter Wake in X-RQ-ID: 1059
> On Runic Sorcery:
> It has been said by Greg that the runes as we know them are a god
> learner construct. It follows that they invented them as a basis for
> *their* magic system. This sytsem was destroyed methodically along
> with the god-learners (though the runes remain). For this reason I
> wouldn't expect to see any living Malkioni, Bithini or other Western
> god-hating scum using runic sorcery. If you see someone who looks
> like they're using runic sorcery then they're a god learner. Kill
> them quick before you're tainted with their soul destroying knowledge.
> - All Hail the Reaching Moon -
How do I recognize runic sorcery? Does it smell different? Does it
register to detect chaos? Are the users illuminated? Isn't all the lunar
magic runic sorcery? Small chaos becomes big chaos! Kill chaos! Kill the
Lunars!
(Our storm bull scholar on runic sorcery.)
___________________________
David Hall in X-RQ-ID: 1062
> Unfortunately I suspect we'll never really understand the nuances of
> Eastern Isles and Kralori sorcery until there is an essay/special pack that
> explains just how the sorcery rules interact with the divine magic rules in
> their culture. Otherwise there is the danger of hundreds of powerful
> sorcerers running around on each island frustrating the PC's.
I'd say the same probem applies to all henotheist sorcery.
> I seem to be Malkioni-centric because I believe that the original RQ3
> sorcery rules came from Malkioni roots - initially from Charlie Krank's
> Wizards of the West campaign. And not from the dwarves, or the Kralori, or
> the Eastern Isles. I reckon that the sorcery rules, in combination with the
> other two magic systems, have since been used to try and explain the unique
> Dragon magic of Kralorela, the magic of East Isles, Dwarven mechanics, and
> Carmanian Lunar magic. But I think the roots still lie with Malkionism, and
> that the sorcery rules alone still work best in a Malkioni environment.
Well, I cannot see how RQ3 sorcery fits into Malkioni society without
major fixes. The system as it stands does advocate unaligned sorcerers
rather than Western parochial tied sorcerers.
> I'm of the opinion that the example sect in the RQ4 book (because I admit
> that we can't have the Sects of Malkion book in RQ4) should be the White
> Wyzards of Seshnela. To me they are the closest to pure Malkionism, and so
> the pure sorcery rules work best for them.
That's Rokari Malkionism?
> Brithini:
> Their atheism isn't liberating, in fact it is the opposite. They are the
> most conservative people in Glorantha - probably because they've got the
> most to lose if they change their ways. Their worship is based around
> archaic and inefficient rituals and laws that they dare not break for fear
> of mortality.
I agree. In my eyes the 1621 Arolanit Brithini are less free than the
human inhabitants of Slon.
> I therefore don't see them like I do unaligned sorcerers, since they are
> part of a large group that acts to all intents and purposes like a
> religious sect.
Atheism and scepticism can be a religion. What I deny is that they act as
a Malkioni sect.
> Joerg Baumgartner:
>>Fonrit does have sorcery, but that seems to have been imported by the God
>>Learners. After these were wiped out, their lesser disciples seem to have
>>remained, and are now unaligned - sorry, David.
> Don't apologise, just quote us your source!
Ok. I read the Fonrit stuff in Heroes 1.6, and I carefully looked for
Seshnegi evidence. There wasn't any, but there were a lot of mentions of
Jrusteli occupation. I don't know wether the Seshnegi followed the
Jrusteli everywhere, but I found no evidence for that anywhere.
So we get a situation where the only sorcerers who visited Fonrit were of
God Learner fame. The God Learners were wiped out by the united anti God
Learner forces, but still there remain some sorcerers. Who are they? I'd
expect they are pupils of the God Learners who didn't learn the secrets of
Heroquesting or whatever was the reason for their extermination, but
whatever the reason, these sorcerers were spared from extermination, and
anything they could have been aligned to was. What do we get? Unaligned
sorcerers, in my book.
Of course this is no definite evidence that this is so, but is there any
evidence against my line of reasoning?
>>Well, there are the Mostal-worshipping humans of Slon who ought to be real
>>fun to play. Then there's that dwarf band from ES some people might want
>>to encounter. And Slon seems to be very large.
> Wow! Real fun playing a slave. Are you into bondage?
I'm mostly GM, and yes, in that position I definitely am into bondage.
And then, do you think playing a band of Slon humans is worse than playing
a band of trollkin? Their situation is similar, only that they are not
openly used as food (but what was this alpha red stuff you were taling
about?).
> Ah hah, Slon only *seems* to be very large! ... I'm getting more pathetic,
> yes?
Yes .
>>Why exclude the Carmanians?
> Because in my book they are not Malkioni. The rituals have been screwed
> around by the Red Goddess so that she now sits in the Invisible God's
> place. In the rituals you no longer just need faith, you can actually see
> the Goddess if you are lucky one holy day.
So what? Just because they are not primarily Malkioni, they still are
sorcerers, and a quite powerful culture, too. And if they are included
into the Lunar College of Magic, a description of their powers is bitterly
needed for any Sartarite campaign.
> The Invisible God cannot exist side-by-side with the Red Goddess because
> she is supreme. Another source of power, or source of discontent, cannot be
> countenanced. The Red Goddess binds people to her by their worship of her,
> or their worship of other gods bound to her or her son. E.g. the Red
> Emperor binds the Dara Happans by being the the rightful Emperor of Dara
> Happa through his completion of the Ten Tests of Empire set down by Yelm.
So that's the reason the Yelmites are fully behind the Lunar cause!
Could you detail these ten tests?
_________________________________
Oliver Jovanovic in X-RQ-ID: 1063
> The cults of the East Isles grant divine magic but use
> sorcery instead of cult spirit magic (the Kralori
> may function in a similar fashion).
I don't quite agree. The cults tolerate sorcery, but I doubt they actively
teach it. It's similar to divine cults which leave the teaching of spirit
magic to the shamans (which most do except for those spells most fitting
into their mythology).
> With respect to Pamaltela, the human portions of Umathela
> are dominated by Malkioni, but Fonrit and the human portions
> of the Maslo peninsula seem to be dominated by non-Malkioni
> sorcerers (the Fonritians sorcerers appear to be either
> unaligned or also worship the local cults, the humans of
> Maslo distrust gods and avoid worshipping them as much as
> possible).
You see, David, I don't stand alone.
> Unaligned sorcerers - here I have to disagree - a number
> of human cultures exist that use unaligned sorcery (God Forgot
> and Fonrit come to mind), and I think there is a role in
God Forgot: There are some Brithini colonies (Refuge), but the name and
history propose some remnants of God Learner teachings.
> Glorantha for the solitary independent researcher or hermetic
> mage. Of course they won't be welcome in barbaric cultures
> such as Sartar, but even so I suspect an unaligned sorcerer
> that kept his (or her) mouth shut would do better in Sartar
> than a Seven Mothers or Malkioni missionary. The witch hunting
Well, it's hard to be in worse regard than chaos tainted Lunar scum -
provided you are a true and steadfast Orlanthi. But then some people come
to terms with anything - King Sartar made the tribes accept even the
chikdren-eating Telmori scum- it would need some extraordinary person like
Sartar to make them universally tolerated, though. But what's the
difference between those believing in a God which isn't really there, and
those who don't believe in a God which isn't really there? Both are lost
and misguided, aren't they? (This from an Orlanthi point of view.)
> analog suggested by Jeorg strikes me as apt. However, I think
> they could manage fairly well in a number of cultures -
> the Lunar Empire strikes me as an open, accepting and
> civilized culture - if they accept broo and tentacled
> gladiators, I sincerly doubt they would have much trouble
> with an unaligned sorcerer. As for the West, most of the
As long as they don't interfere negatively with the Lunar way, those chaos
buggers (excuse a slight bias) would accept anything, but let them issue a
single thought not sanctioned by the Red Emperor, and your sorcerer
becomes Bat fodder.
> Malkioni sects seem to consider each other heretics, and
> yet they manage to coexist - I doubt an unaligned sorcerer
> would be considered much worse than another heretic (or
> a Brithini) there. The Glorantha book, under Carmania,
> mentions the use of unaligned sorcery in Carmania.
How do heretics fare e.g. in peaceful Loskalm? Do they make it to
religious court, or are they lynched before that? Any culture that calls
anti-chaos uz krjalki ids xenophobic enough to do quite unpleasant
things...
> Jeorg -
It's Joerg, pronounced something like "Yirk". Georg is only my second name.
> You're quite correct - I think the different sects of
> sorcery should vary in spell selection and availability,
> manipulations used, and form of familiars used, not to
> mention the role their sorcery plays in the society the
> sect belongs to.
So what the basic rules will need is one example and general outlines for
all possible rules, or we end up with D&D-like sales tactics.
> With respect to the origin of humanity according to the
> Brithini, what I've heard is that the Brithini claim
> that they are the only true humans, other races of
> humanity are degenerates that interbred with beasts
> or the descendants of beasts that tried to assume human
> form (the Hsunchen).
That's what I heard, too. Somebody suggested that they believe that men
were the children of Kolatings and merwives, but that sounds false to me -
the Kolatings are members of the Orlanthi pantheon, so this would mean
that the Westerners were originally Orlanthi or Merfolk. I think Orlanthi
as well as Brithini wil not agree with that statement, neither do I. It
fits for the Waertagi, though.They're still the most enigmatic group of
sorcery users, along with Zabdamar females. Why did the Brithini Zzaburs
bother to teach this inhuman people sorcery?
> I assume you meant to say Umathelan sorcery was Rokari
> dominated, correct?
It seemed so in the Umathela description Greg published in one Australian
mag (sorry that I forgot the name, but it's quite unavailable in Germany,
and I stumbed across the Umathela und Oceans issue by mere lucky chance).
> With respect to Kralori sorcery being unified, that's why
> I specifically only referred to Kralorela and the Kingdom
> of Ignorance - I think you'll see far more variation in
> the East Isles in terms of what sorts of sorcery they use.
> I actually think the Vormain have diverged even further,
> as each priestly caste appears to use a unique color magic
> seen nowhere else in Glorantha.
Well, let the Vormain inhabitants call it colours, I'd expect our God
Learnerish theoreticians to call it runes, or elements. And the colors of
magic were defined in the RQ4 draft, weren't they? :)
> Sir Ethelrist a Brithini - this is based on comments by
> Sandy Peterson (which may or may not be correct). My
> understanding was that Sir Ethelrist and the Black Horse
> Troop were Brithini (or very close), but that Muse Roost
> was built on an Arkati holy spot, and has Arkati living
> there and Arkati visitors as a consequence. Also, an
Brithini of post-dawn cut (i.e. strictly cast bound immortals, who either
fight or cast spells - at least Ethilrist seems to do both), or pre-dark
Brithini who somehow made it into time? And is it impossible to join his
troops? (It would if all were Brithini!)
Maybe Ethilrist is a Brithini turned Arkati?
> interesting side note - anyone think that Sir Ethelrist
> may have originally come from Pamaltela? The reference
> to his West Jungle origins might make sense if he originally
> came from a Brithini (or Malkioni) colony in Umathela.
Now where did you hear that?
> I believe there is a good chance that the Invisible
> God was a fairly recent development (in the Godtime
> scale of things) - possibly a replacement for the
> World Machine, which was broken when its main pillar
> was shattered by Chaos.
Now there are few humans outside of Slon who would know of that concept,
let alone believe in it.
____________________________
Nick Brooke in X-RQ-ID: 1064
>> I assume they are from Pithdaros mentioned on p.83 of Glorantha
>> Book 2 (Seshnela); the knights bit might be a Nick Brooke legend.
>> What about it, Nick?
> Yup. My fault again. Think about it, guys: we have a unique colony of
> dark-skinned Agimori from the south, settling in a feudal region of the
> West -- of course they're going to be called "Black Knights".
> (I can't be the only person who explores Glorantha through puns).
At least you seem to be the only one to do so systematicaly.
[Comparing Agimori settlers in Seshnela to sarazene knights of Arthur]
>From the description in RoC I got the impression that there were native
Agimori in Prax when Waha made the survival contract. They are presented
as "men of Lodril", and as such they could appear/originate in any region
with geothermic activity. And David Hall gave me some hints that the fiery
desert in southern Pamaltela may be in part a recent phenomenon.
> (What's the proper literary form for Jar-eel's exploits? Any ideas?)
Maybe some graphic novel with lots of pink ink in it?
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: DO9EA00@sysa.computing-services.manchester-metropolitan-university.ac.uk
Subject: Sorcery and Secrecy
Message-ID: <9306160917.AA20099@Sun.COM>
Date: 16 Jun 93 08:12:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1084
SORCERY
Rob Mace says that you cant just have sorceres with a different spell list
without the background/rule changes to back this up. I vhermently disagree..
Sorcery is a state of mind, its practice requires detailed knowlage and
experience of the spell types being cast. Sorceres pit their all (and
indeed their very existance) against the chance of manipulating the
universe into giving the effect they require. Such knowlage is kept very
secret -- thus we have different schools of sorcery.
Now let us consider just what a good job can be done on keeping knowlage
secret and supressed. The Roamn church did an excelent job during the
dark ages -- banning books, burning heretics etc; indeed the discovery
and re-interpretation of knowlage was considered to be a heresy in its
self. All this came to an end with the fall of the Moorish regions of
Spain and the capture of certain libraries. The contents of these libraries
would revolutionise science and mathematics but it had to be translated from
arabic into latin.... and the only translaters available were jews. Whether
they translated the books accurately or not is unknown, but the books contained
words and concepts for which language was unavailable in Latin. Our word
for zero comes from thero, which they took to mean a hole....
In gloranthan terms different schools of sorcery may be as far apart as
two contenants in which case information transfer would be very very slow.
Sorceres do not have the advantage of a celestial court to transfer spell
information for them. In other cases two different schools may well be bassed
in two quasi-religious orders only a mile apart, but the degree of secrcy
and fear and ignorence and fear (opps wrong game system) between them may
as well seperate them by miles. Remember knowlage is power.
Perhaps of course people out their feel that sorceres live in a post
enlightenment world, with international journals of sorcery and a
royal society etc... In that case all they need to do is publish papers
describing their latest spell in just enough detail for the rest of the
world to know that they know how to do it.... but not enough that it wont
take them three years or so to duplicate the work!
Yours with a healthy degree of (or indeed in) sincesism
- "Its an ill wind that spoils the broth"
---------------------
From: STEVEG@ARC.UG.EDS.COM (Entropy needs no maintenance)
Subject: Pharaonic trivia
Message-ID: <01GZFD16JICI00459C@UG.EDS.COM>
Date: 15 Jun 93 17:18:13 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1085
Jeff Okamoto writes
>either the winner "becomes" the next
>Pharaoh, or the winner's body is taken over the by Pharaoh. If the latter
>is true, no mention is made of whether the Pharaoh and the consciousness
>of the body merge, or the former replaces the latter.
I think in the Glorantha book it was stated that the winner's consciousness is
liberated to an angelic state of existance (i.e. the Pharaoh takes over the
body, whose previous occupant has died & gone to heaven).