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Date: Sat, 10 Jul 93 17:15:12 +0200
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From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 10 Jul 1993, part 1
Precedence: junk
Status: O
The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.
Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM",
they will automatically be included in a next issue. Try to change the
Subject: line from the default Re: RuneQuest Daily... on replying.
Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest. If you
want to submit articles to the Digest only, contact the editor at
RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM.
Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor:
RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld)
---------------------
From: flammang@heart.med.uth.tmc.edu (James Flammang)
Subject: Who the heck?
Message-ID: <9307091517.AA04929@heart.med.uth.tmc.edu>
Date: 9 Jul 93 15:17:58 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1248
Hate to ask more dumb questions, but who the heck is Antirius? Some
Carmanian Sun God? What's the source?
These Sun Gods are getting too damn confusing. I'm going to stick
to worshipping Storm Bull. Keeps things simple.
Jim Flammang
---------------------
From: mabeyke@batman.b11.ingr.com (boris)
Subject: Gloranthan Tarot, an Elemental Approach
Message-ID: <199307091532.AA00441@batman.b11.ingr.com>
Date: 9 Jul 93 15:31:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1249
After reading about Mike Dawson's discussion of his Gloranthan tarot in
X-RQ-ID: 1222, I got to wondering about a more standard deck. This is
not to say I'm not terribly intrigued by Mike's; I for one would love
to see what he has, art description and all (hint, hint). It's just
that there are some folks in my group who are familiar with the standard,
elemental based deck, and I thought of how such a deck would appear in
Glorantha.
Note: Most of what follows is based on my understanding of the Tarot,
which is admittedly incomplete, but is based mostly on Crowley's Thoth
deck, not the more traditional Rider-Waite deck. So if I say something
that differs from the RW deck (which I am mosly unfamiliar with), or your
own understanding, that is the reason. Please comment on it, however.
Leaving aside the Major Arcana for now (mainly because I'm somewhat
daunted by it), I considered the suit cards. Well, first, obviously,
an additional suit is needed, for the element of darkness. And for the
Lunar tradition, a sixth suit. But for now, again, I decided to stick
with what I'm most familiar with, and try to design one from the Orlanthi
cultural perspective. So, five suits it is.
The elemental symbolism in Glorantha is somewhat different than on Earth.
For one thing, the element that represents the female generative urge is
Earth, not Water. So Earth would acquire much of the symbolism normally
given to the suit of Cups. Also, at least from an Orlanthi perspective,
the traditional roles of Air and Fire are reversed from; Storm represents
strength, freedom and rulership, and Sun represents Truth, Law, knowledge,
and stability. A Dara Happan tradition would, of course, be different.
This leaves assigning some roles to Water (whose traditional role has been
usurped by Earth) and to Darkness. I wish I could say I combined insights
from both worlds to do this, but lacking such, I assigned to them roles
that felt right from a Gloranthan perspective. These two suits, I feel,
are where I'm on shakiest ground here. To Water, I (somewhat arbitrarily)
assigned the properties of youth, invigoration, support, and cleasing. To
Darkness I assigned the properties of disorder, appetite, and violence.
And with these assignments, I am able to assign the Court Cards of this
tarot. Following in Crowley's Thoth tradition, the court is a cross
fertilization of the elements. Therefore, each suit will need five court
cards, and they are:
King: The Stormy part of [element]
Queen: The Earthy part of [element]
Thane: The Firey part of [element]
Page: The Watery part of [element]
Beast: The Dark part of [element]
Storm
King of Storms: Orlanth embodies the strength and mastery of Storm,
and as the source of Air, falls naturally into this
position.
Queen of Storms: I had no clear deity here. Ernalda obviously is of
the Earth suit. Barntar would fit, perhaps, if the
gender of the card is ignored. Or perhaps Kero Fin?
Thane of Storms: Humakt is the indomitable upholder of Truth, and fits
well into this position.
Page of Storms: Heler is not only originally a water god, but also
represents invigoration and support.
Beast of Storms: Urox the Storm Bull, with his furies, indulgent
appetites and violence fits this role.
Earth
King of Earth: Genert, I thought, here, perhaps shown as a dead god.
No one else seems to fit. Perhaps Asrelia?
Queen of Earth: Ernalda, of course, represents to the Orlanthi the
female, fertile properties of Earth.
Thane of Earth: Mostal was the only deity that came to mind here.
Representing stability and Law, but not clearly tied
to Ernalda, he seemed uncertain, but workable.
Page of Earth: Voria seemed the clear choice here.
Beast of Earth: Here was a pair of choices, both Maran and Babeester
Gor. I suppose either, or perhaps both, will do.
Sky
King of Sky: Yelm fills the leadership and mastery role for the
Sky suit.
Queen of Sky: Orlanthi from the Holy Country would probably place
the Volcano Twins, Chalandra and Aurelion, here.
Dragon Pass Orlanthi would most like assign this to
the Feathered Horse Queen.
Thane of Sky: Elmal represents Truth and Stability, and is the
loyal thane in Orlanthi myths.
Page of Sky: Chalana Arroy is an excellent nurturer, and has
enough ties to Yelm's court to qualify here.
Beast of Sky: Lodril is well known for his appetites and unruly
behavior, and legends of his enslavement by Argan
Argar would make his placement here appropriate.
Sea
King of Sea: Mastakos obviously has the role of ruler of the sea.
Queen of Sea: Triolina, if the Orlanthi know of her at all, seems
appropriate here.
Thane of Sea: Sky River Titan, who invaded the realm of the Sun,
seems good here.
Page of Sea: Nelat in KOS:Orlanthi Mythology is the God of
Purification. I don't know any more about him.
Pavis Orlanthi might make this the Cleansed One, from
the Zola Fel subcult.
Beast of Sea: Wachaza seems appropriate, again if the known by the
Orlanthi.
Darkness
King of Darkness: Dehore, as source of Darkness spirits, might fit here.
Queen of Darkness: Kygor Litor is of course the source of fertility to
the Darnkness.
Thane of Darkness: Argan Argar, as god of Surface Darkness, conquorer of
Lodril and user of spears, fits this role well.
Page of Darkness: Styx is both a combination of Water and Darkness, and
is the ultimate cleansing.
Beast of Darkness: Zorak Zoran and no other epitomizes the savage fury
of Darkness.
Well, that's all for now. The numbered cards wouldn't need to represent
any particular deities, but I fealt the court cards should. The Aces
should probably represent the primal sources of each element, however.
Please comment, trash, or flame as you desire. I would like comments
and criticisms to try to improve this.
----
(*) ZZ [] (.) @ e K| o8- |> oK <>< )o 3 8 <|
"Early to bed, early to rise, it's all required by the Compromise."
Arachne Solara's statement to Yelm at the SunStop.
Boris
|><| +- (| >- .: K * =|= <- (O) ( ) (o) (|) X-
---------------------
From: awr0@aberystwyth.ac.uk
Subject: This may be of interest
Message-ID: <9307091612.AA01619@deca>
Date: 9 Jul 93 18:12:28 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1250
I've sent all the material to shannon for uploading onto soda.berkeley.edu
but there are particular files that will be removed due to the fact
I could not find and author and David Hall informed me that some of the
material is a direct ripoff of Chaosium material and this will not be
available from now on---(This was mainly cult material)
I have, though, latexed the material and produced a 480 page postscript
document with a good index and all. If anybody is interested, the
postscript docuement is circa 2.9 meg in length and I can happily split it
To the person enquiring about publication of their own RQ material.
I asked Ken Rolston about this. [My enquiry was wether I could produce
and adventure with the words Runequest compatible on it] He referred me
to the case of TSR vs Mayfair, where Mayfair had placed ADND compatible
on one of their adventures and said that it would probably be a bit dodgy
as the situation legally had not been cleared up. Runequest itself would
be the TradeMark of AH, although would RQ?
>From a publication point of view, if you really wanted to, you could call
your supplement a Fanzine or something, stating that the material within
is unofficial but giving copyright disclaimers where necessary. I don't
know what the legal standing here would be. Maybe David Hall or MOB could
answer this question?
There is a frustration in trying to get your stuff published through
'official' paths...ie AH, seeing as they are very slow on the uptake.
The cost of producing a 50 page A4 booklet/adventure can be relatively
cheap. Realistically your are probably expecting publication costs of
around 500 pounds for around 500 books..if you can find a decent publisher
that is.
The question really comes down to how legal is it? In a nice world,
it would be great to be able to publish your own material as you see
fit stating that the material is un-official, and it would be nice
to send off the adventure to e.g. AH and have them say 'Sorry it's
crap, or hey this is great, here have and official endorsement!'
I think you would see a larger amount of material that way.
Anyway, I'm mumbling! Does anybody know the legal standing on
producing RQ compatible adventure books? Has anybody done anything
like this? What about supplements like Watchers of the Sacred Flame
etc...
Adam
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Re: David Chengs magical thoughts
Message-ID:
Date: 9 Jul 93 22:40:10 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1251
____________________________
David Cheng in X-RQ-ID: 1238
(I respond here because I suppose that the RQ4-testers read this, too)
>>>
I have read (skimmed) the sorcery discussion for weeks. I can hold
my opinions to myself no longer...
Tidbits about Magic I have picked up over the years:
DRAGON EMPEROR WORSHIP
The Dragon Emperor (currently Godyuna) is a focus of worship for the whole
populace. The Exarchs are his high priests (DC's terminology).
The people worship Godyuna, and he becomes more magically
powerful. There are inefficiencies, however, so in RQ terms,
perhaps he only gets 1 POW per 100 worshippers, or per 1000;
whatever. Still, he gets a buttload of power, leading to the quote
(paraphrase) that he is the most magically powerful human in
Glorantha.
<<<
As I mentioned above, that's how I figure it works out for all deities, be
they incarnated or not. He needn't even get POW; what he gets regularly
are magic points, or regenerable life force, to drop the rules vocabulary.
But of course he has the use of the regenerating life force offered in
sacrifice by his faithful, too, which makes him mighty magic.
>>>
Now, Godunya has all this magical energy to play with. As a good ruler
must, he delegates a good bit of his "magical responsibility" to the
Exarchs. He shares some of the magical power he's accumulated.
By using the magic Godyuna shares with them, they keep the magical
irrigation systems working, the magical bridges suspended, etc.
<<<
As do the Pharaoh (the main work on the City of Wonders) and the Red
Emperor (the Glowline etc), and probably all other living gods.
>>>
(Aside: I think that in Dragon Pass terms, each Exarch ought to have a
10-20 Magic Factor; quite a bit in a game where 6 is very tough, and the
Red Emperor has 12, if my memory serves me correctly.)
<<<
In the AH-version he has Magic Factor 10, Range 10.
I love that parallel, but I tend to disagree. The Red Emperor is described
as one of the most magical individuals on Glorantha (in Tales 8), and I'd
lin him up after Godunya, Zzabur, the Arch-Exarch, and probably the
Pharaoh.
In Dragon Pass terms, I'd assign Super Hero stats to the Arch Exarch,
maybe even an active 20 magic factor with range 10 or 12, but the Exarchs
as they run certainly are less magical than the inhuman king, who features
8/8.
Anybody else out there interested in making all of Glorantha into Dragon
Pass mechanics?
>>>
Kralorelan magic always struck me as awkward. Not the Emperor worship
thing: the magic where everyone can spend POW for sorcerous effects. I
would strongly be in favor of coming up with something different, which
better captured the "magic of the East."
<<<
Something more draconic, and at the same time more light orientated. As I
read the Kralori history in the Jonstown compendium in the RQ2 Companion
(page 8, entry 1469), it was Daruda, the fifth emperor, who introduced
draconic ways and thus Kralorela's draconic magic. Before Kralorela was
but part of Yelm's Solar Empire.
BTW, could anybody enlighten me why Yelm's reign was followed by
Metsyla's? Or did Metsyla just take care of part of Yelm's realm, i.e.
Kralorela?
>>>
RUNE MAGIC
A worshipper invokes rune magic. For that instant, he _becomes_ the god.
That is what allows him to do it in the first place. Without the
initiate-link to his god, he can't hope to pull this off.
<<<
My interpretation is that the worshipper aquires a working link with the
deity through which the deity can channel the magic the worshipper paid for
in advance. And doubly so, since (s)he paid a hole day of service,
including sacrifice of lots of magic points, to gain or regain the spell
sacrificed for.
RQ3 quite clearly states soe differences between divine spells and divine
intervention. The latter won't work when the initiate is on enemy holy
ground, the former will. DI is impossible for inactive initiates, divine
spells aren't. I conclude that during DI the deity fills the initiate,
while for divine spells the initiate awakens the spark of divine power
within himself. This might be one reason why a certain number of divine
spells must be learned to enter priesthood: the amount of divine power
residing in the priest to be must be strong enough.
>>>
JRUSTELI MAGICAL PHILOSOPHY
By my understanding, Curtis Shenton and Loren Miller are both correct.
There are not only three magic systems, there are more. But, there is only
one magical meta-system.
<<<
I second (or rather fourth) this point of view.
>>>
Loren's comment today is not God Learner, it's anti-God Learner. It is the
GLs who originally classified all the things they found into neat, tidy
categories. Mostali sorcery is not the same as Kralorelan magic, but
because they operate on principals more in common with each other than
with Spirit or Divine Magic, they are classified together.
<<<
Who said the God Learners were right? They contradicted themselves by using
their theomancy (parts of all their different classes of magic), didn't
they?
>>>
>From what OJ has told me:
There is one meta-magic. The individual practitioner learns to manipulate
it in a certain way. However, in doing so, he loses the magical
sensitivity to do magic in other ways. That is why Sorcerers can't be good
Shamen.
I guess this also means that there are as many magic systems are there are
individual practitioners...
<<<
Agreed. However one can group magic into some larger groups which may hav
esubgroups, etc.
>>>
* BUT *
I for one do not want to see a meta-magic system. I am a God Learner
Sympathizer, and I am perfectly comfortable having Spirit Magic, Divine
Magic and Sorcery. I like calling them separate things and identifying
their differences concretely.
<<<
What do you sympathize with? The goddess' switch? the replacement of the
raccoons? The killing of the guardian of the Divine Cup of Victory?
Flame mode off, I can second your emphasis on the differrences, but there
will be diffuse borders. Best example is the Stygian Heresy of Malkionism,
having all three magic systems available (at least did MOB's Issaries
Merchant Prince in Hut of Darkness). Would somebody care to write up
his/her view of how one example of Stygian Heresy exactly works? E.g. the
cult of Dormal, where this is obvious?
>>>
The idea of one magic system instead of three is so heretical that I think
the game it appeared in might not be RQ any more. Couple this with
changing the skill resolution and weapon damage systems too much, and
you've got a completely different game.
This might not be such a bad idea. I might play such a game, but I might
not. I don't know right now. But, I would buy it if it were a Gloranthan
game.
<<<
A question: Does any of us play RQ as the rules are written? I don't. Part
of what hooked me were all the special rules adapted for Glorantha. I
thought "If they can do it for THE RuneQuest-gameworld, then I can for
mine." So did I.
But RQ (2, 3, 2.5, 3.5) _has_ one metasystem describing the interactions
between different spells, possibly from different subsystems. The MP-cost
might be totally unbalanced, e.g. for protection spells or control spells,
but those are the fixes under work for RQ4. Dragonewt-magic, Lunar magic,
Godunyas magic (although not so terribly original, I kind of like it in my
non-Gloranthan context), Mostali Stabilize sorcery, jelmre emotions, even
Thanatari head magic, vampirical spell knowledge draining (like in MOB's
house rules and in Sun County) and Nysalor Riddles, all these follow the
major guidelines of the metasystem.
I like the "different usage of fetches" approach included in the proposed
sorcery rules, and I have adopted it as truth for my private gameworld.
I've included it in the metarule for my world, and I'm still working on
applying it to Stormbringer Demon magic for my Ogre nation and some depravd
humans. I have added a couple of conventions, but I still think of the game
as RuneQuest. And the world's working title is Runeworld...
OK, stop ranting, Joerg.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de