(Message rqd:11) Return-Path:Received: from Holland.Sun.COM (sunnl) by homeland.Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA08197; Mon, 12 Jul 93 17:17:13 +0200 Received: from glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM by Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1e) id AA25799; Mon, 12 Jul 93 17:16:32 +0200 Received: by glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01653; Mon, 12 Jul 93 17:15:17 +0200 Date: Mon, 12 Jul 93 17:15:17 +0200 Message-Id: <9307121515.AA01653@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM> From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 12 Jul 1993, part 1 Precedence: junk Status: O The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM", they will automatically be included in a next issue. Try to change the Subject: line from the default Re: RuneQuest Daily... on replying. Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest. If you want to submit articles to the Digest only, contact the editor at RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM. Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld) --------------------- From: postmaster@minster.york.ac.uk Subject: smtp mail failed Message-ID: Date: 10 Jul 93 14:25:18 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1253 Your mail to minster.york.ac.uk!andyc-rq is undeliverable. ---------- diagnosis ---------- rmail: error writing to /usr/andyc/Boxes/rq. I/O error rmail: andyc-rq -- unknown user or mailbox ---------- unsent mail ---------- >From Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM!RuneQuest Sat Jul 10 17:15:12 +0200 1993 remote from inet Received: from snail.Sun.COM (snail.Corp.Sun.COM) by Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA15864; Sat, 10 Jul 93 08:15:54 PDT Received: from Holland.Sun.COM (isunnl) by snail.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13400; Sat, 10 Jul 93 08:15:43 PDT Received: from glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM by Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1e) id AA10627; Sat, 10 Jul 93 17:15:31 +0200 Received: by glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA22883; Sat, 10 Jul 93 17:15:12 +0200 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 93 17:15:12 +0200 Message-Id: <9307101515.AA22883@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM> From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 10 Jul 1993, part 1 Precedence: junk The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM", they will automatically be included in a next issue. Try to change the Subject: line from the default Re: RuneQuest Daily... on replying. Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest. If you want to submit articles to the Digest only, contact the editor at RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM. Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld) --------------------- From: flammang@heart.med.uth.tmc.edu (James Flammang) Subject: Who the heck? Message-ID: <9307091517.AA04929@heart.med.uth.tmc.edu> Date: 9 Jul 93 15:17:58 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1248 Hate to ask more dumb questions, but who the heck is Antirius? Some Carmanian Sun God? What's the source? These Sun Gods are getting too damn confusing. I'm going to stick to worshipping Storm Bull. Keeps things simple. Jim Flammang --------------------- --------------------- From: postmaster@minster.york.ac.uk Subject: smtp mail failed Message-ID: Date: 10 Jul 93 14:25:21 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1254 Your mail to minster.york.ac.uk!andyc-rq is undeliverable. ---------- diagnosis ---------- rmail: error writing to /usr/andyc/Boxes/rq. I/O error rmail: andyc-rq -- unknown user or mailbox ---------- unsent mail ---------- >From Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM!RuneQuest Sat Jul 10 17:15:22 +0200 1993 remote from inet Received: from snail.Sun.COM (snail.Corp.Sun.COM) by Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA15869; Sat, 10 Jul 93 08:15:58 PDT Received: from Holland.Sun.COM (isunnl) by snail.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13403; Sat, 10 Jul 93 08:15:49 PDT Received: from glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM by Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1e) id AA10633; Sat, 10 Jul 93 17:15:40 +0200 Received: by glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA22924; Sat, 10 Jul 93 17:15:22 +0200 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 93 17:15:22 +0200 Message-Id: <9307101515.AA22924@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM> From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 10 Jul 1993, part 2 Precedence: junk The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM", they will automatically be included in a next issue. Try to change the Subject: line from the default Re: RuneQuest Daily... on replying. Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest. If you want to submit articles to the Digest only, contact the editor at RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM. Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld) --------------------- From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 08 Jul 1993, part 1 Message-ID: Date: 9 Jul 93 22:40:51 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1252 Some feedback to my sacerdotal kings to be answered... ____________________________ Paul Reilly in X-RQ-ID: 1236 >>> I agree, though, that a lot of the cults have a strong element of ancestor worship. Yelm is an even more obvious example, his priesthood is restricted by bloodline to the old Yelm noble families, which are supposedly descended from Yelm! Obviously ancestor worship gone way --------------------- From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) Subject: Sun gods and myths Message-ID: Date: 10 Jul 93 17:49:38 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1255 STEVEG@ARC.UG.EDS.COM (Entropy needs no maintenance) in X-RQ-ID: 1244 >johnjmedway reported (re Greg's next book) >>Did you say Elmal? Yelmalio? No no no. >>It was Antirius who fought at the Hill of Gold. >>Stafford: "Those guys who had problems with Elmal >> will really piss their pants over this." >>Yep. >There are several ways to take the tale of Antirius. Same god, different >name? or perhaps an instance of the Roman custom of making >analogy-identifications of other folks gods; talking of "The German Hercules" >meaning Thor, and so forth (so Elmal is "The Orlanthi Antirius" - and perhaps >Yelmalio is "The Aldryami Antirius")? How objective can one be in saying that >one figure in myth is the same as (or differs from) another, anyway? One possible explanation is that already in God Time there were several dities following the same paths, thus aquiring or losing the same attributes. So Yelm was the only sun god, and so was Yu-Kargzant, and so was Yalem, and so was Osentalka, and so was Ehilm, because all their deeds and encounters followed largely the same pattern. Not very helpful, but then Greg Stafford might think myths this way... >I only have a fairly mundane problem with the Yelmalio/Elmal revision : Who >were those Sun Dome Templars invited to Prax in the late 8th century ST, and >who did they worship? Since they and the balazarings are the only Yelmalian group we have detailed historical accounts of, we may assume that their god ws known to them as Yelmalio. Maybe they had strong Aldryami influence, maybe that was even the very reason they left their home. Was that in Sun Dome County in Sartar, or close to Bikhy? Got to check my sources... -- -- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de --------------------- From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) Subject: Elected kings Message-ID: Date: 10 Jul 93 17:50:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1256 ___________________________ Greg Fried in X-RQ-ID: 1245 >>> Joerg: That was me using Clinton as an example of someone who must practice ancestor worship as an aspect of his official duties of office. Now all this business about kingship (or queenship) NECESSARILY involving ancestor worship and lineage gets me thinking. WHat should we think of elective office in Glorantha? SOmeone today said that in Glorantha authority and (magical) power are congruent, and that seems right to me. Thus, kingly status is intimately bound up with ritual questions such as direct lineage etc. No "mundane" kingship, as it was nicely put. But then would elective office be an expression of "mundane" politics? <<< No, not at all. You see, most of the Orlanthi kings are actually elected, from a limited number of candidates, agreed, but who actualy becomes king has little to do with primogeniture. This applies to conservative Orlanthi culture; Pelorian influence may have changed that, as it did in Tarsh. An interesting parallel is the difference between Hrestoli meritocracy and Rokari strict class society. But then to become a member of the Lord class in Hrestoli society one has to have been a Wizard before, their equivalent for a priest. But then except in Seshnela the family ties were never so important, and in Seshnela the linealists finally won. And then there are the upstart kings, reigning over self-made realms. These guys are heroes in their own right - see Arim the Pauper, Sartar, Harrek, Richard the Tigerhearted, or Argrath (I think his lineage isn't _that_ pure; he seems to be heir by adoption more than by blood :-). >>> Would atheists prefer democracy in Glorantha? This would seem to follow, since Gloranthan atheists want to negate the influence of mythic entities over the Nowtime. (Don't they?) <<< In fact the Brithini and Vadeli have the strictest cast systems among humans I know of in Glorantha, worde even than Yelmic systems. And to call the Mostali atheists may not be too far from the truth, at least those not practising individualism, openhandism or one of the other heresies, and those who are individualistic are leaving the strict chains of the cast system.. But the Zzaburi and Vadeli casts have ancestral ties, too, they just don't acknowledge them. Or how would you call a cast that consists of members of the same family, or the same race? >>> If elected office (and I'm not talking about elected CULT office -- although it can be hard to distinguish cult and political office in GLorantha) need not depend on lineage, what form of ancestor worship would such an office give one access to? Presumably all the spirits of the collective "citizens" of the regime in question. <<< In Pavis, the true bloodline of Pavis the Founder has been lost in the occupation by nomads and trolls, so the elected leaders become adopted by the spirit of the city. Even to the extent that the spirit left his original location and included the new city of Pavis into his protection. In Sun County the count is elected from a number of light sons who'd qualify. Of course this is a religious prerequisite, but the final process is "democratical" for a group of leaders. This senate democracy was common in the antique, most notably in Athens and Rome where there were different classes of citizens, in Rome patricians and plebejans. In Ralian city states as I read it the electible rulers are chosen from the old aristocratic families or from single individuals who have proved their value, i.e. heroes. The most democratic offices I can think of in Glorantha are the guild positions. And these are often hereditarily allotted to certain families and clans, leaving maybe two or three of a dozen positions open for newcomers who have to prove their qualities.ou might say the others have inherited their qualities, and in a certain sense they have. This seems alien to our thinking, but Glorantha (and dark age Europe) knows the ancestry as very solid and material advantage. -- -- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de --------------------- From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried) Subject: RuneDeck Message-ID: Date: 10 Jul 93 18:37:26 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1257 Greg Fried here. Boris: EXCELLENT thoughts on a RuneDeck. I liked your thoughts on who to identify with thevarious face cards, and that these identifications would vary depending on cultic interpretations of the divine balance of power. I also think your are right about the cross-fertilization of elements in the face cards. OK, now some problems. This deck is going to have a LOT of cards. Five suits of ten cards each, plus 5 * 5 face cards, plus the major arcana -- that's 75+ cards. And if there's a Lunar deck, that's six suits *10, plus 6 * 6 face cards, plus the majors -- over 100! But perhaps the response to this problem is, so what? SOme might advocate only 8 number cards in a suit, reflecting the 8 weeks of the GLoranthan seasons. I would disagree, for two reasons. One is that numeralogically, going from one to ten has always had importance in tarot (though I suppose you could have reasons only for going to eight as well, but since when has eight been particularly significant numerologically?). The other is that I (along with others in the RQD) believe there SHOULD be ten weeks in a season, including a Fate and a Luck week. In this way, each of the numbered cards in each suit would be associated with a week of the season which that suit itself represents (except the Lunar suit -- do they have an alternative calendar? Perhpas they should have 6 seven week seasons with a four week sacred time, reflected (pun intended!) by six suits of seven numbered cards each. These are VERY sketchy thoughts.) Anyway, Lunarism aside, then each number card would also be associated with one of the ten power runes. Any thoughts on what number ought to go with what power rune? Should we just follow the sequence in the calendar? Would each cultic deck have its own numerical associations? In any case, with this system, by drawing a number card in a suit, you are refered directly to a season and a week -- pretty good for prophetic readings! Drawing another card could pinpoint the day of the week. What is the Lunar face card? I liked your idea of Thane as one of the court. Where does lunar fit in? As a priest/priestess card in every elemental house?(BTW, Eurmal will be in favor of a Jester face card in every house! HE should at least get a Fool card in the Majors.) Would this card be "higher" than the king card? My guess would be, Yes, if only in the Lunar suit itself. Then, depending on your take on the Lunar relation to each of the other elements, the priestess card would have a different rank in each suit! (Fun for the eventual RunePoker game!) For the Major Arcana, I would nix the cards we know of from the RW, and substitute one based on the Form and Condition runes. NOTE! In a non-Lunar deck, there will be a Moon card as a Form rune! Also, Chaos COULD be associated with the Fool card in traditional Tarot (which is Zero in the Major's sequence). Again, the composition of the Majors will depend on local cultic interpretation and acceptance of the runes. Some might include a Hunger rune, others exclude Moon, others not know about Dragonewt, others include Law, etc. I suggest working out one fairly influential deck, say, the Orlanthi one, and then provide indications as to how it would transform under different cultic practice. (Wow. Forget about RunePoker; RuneBridge would be quite a game with this deck!) GF out. --------------------- From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried) Subject: More RuneDeck Message-ID: Date: 10 Jul 93 19:07:41 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1258 GF back again. Boris, I just had an idea. Given that there are, depending on how your pantheon counts them, about ten Form and Condition runes, I'd suggest that if we decide that the Major arcana be constructed of these runes, there be ten of them, just like in the elemental suits. My suggestion then would be that a Lunar deck would appropriate the Majors as its suit, topping it off with its own court of face cards and insinuating a priestess card into each of the other suits! It seems to me that many of the Major Ar --------------------- From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried) Subject: Oops! More RuneDeck still Message-ID: Date: 10 Jul 93 19:17:50 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1259 Yeargh! GF here -- glitched on my keyboard in mid-sentence. As I was saying, it seems to me that the meaning of many of the Major Arcana cards in the traditional tarot deck will be taken over by face cards in the RuneDeck's elemental suits (eg, the Sun card), and others can be repesented by form and condition runes, like the Magician by the Magic rune, Emperor by the Mastery (or Slavery!) rune, etc. We do do have to duplicate the traditional deck, anyhow, with the RuneDeck Majors. If the Majors do use the Form and Condition runes, I suggest Chaos as the first numerically, representing EITHER Fool OR Devil. GF out. --------------------- From: drcheng@sales.stern.nyu.edu (David Cheng) Subject: DC on Joerg on DC Message-ID: Date: 11 Jul 93 01:22:49 GMT X-RQ-ID: 1260 Might I say, an excellent set of replies. Re: All deities need Magic Points I'm not too comfortable with this. I think that the more inherently powerful the deity, the less of a need it has for worshippers. Isn't there a listing somewhere of the "10 deities fundamental to Glorantha?" Let's see: Humakt, Uleria, Yelm, Orlanth, Magasta... (CoTerror maybe?) Personally I think the Dragon Emperor is more of a unique case. He is just a regular joe who gets elevated to the status of living goodhood. The Pharoah was powerful enough to defeat the Only Old One _before_ anyone worshipped him. The Red Emperor has uniquely powerful genetic heritage. Godyuna is some guy with "regularly rolled stats." Re: Dragon Pass Analogies I tend to agree with your estimations, at first look. I have daydreams about a huge Genertela map, in Dragon Pass scale (big!), where the whole of the Hero Wars could be played out. Those Brithini: only a few counters, but boy are they tough!.. Re: The magic of Kralorela Perhaps a better way to say my original intent: "I think it was a mistake to use the core sorcery rules as a basis for the unique magic of Kralorela." I have thought about it a bit, and this is what I see happening: Eastern cultures have a strong sense of family obligation. If the stated system were really in effect in Kralorela, there would be a lot of 1 POW spirits going to Yelm heaven, or Dendara heaven, or whatever. Why? Situation: A grandfather/grandmother/whatever senses his time to pass on is near. There would be a big family ritual where this person would "bless" one of the children of the family. Just which child would be a big family-political issue, and there would inevitably be social conventions evolved to help decide. Anyway, the "blessing" takes the form of a long-duration sorcery spell: something that could help the child get through to adulthood. Enhance (Characteristic) would be popular, I think. Use your imagination. The grandfather uses up all his POW, as a final gift to his descendent, and is then free to die in peace. He's going to heaven. No need for lots of POW up there, right? This just doesn't seem right to me, IF in fact it did evolve. Re: Relationship between Worshipper and Deity (Carl Fink: Skip this section!) Yes, I have made some different assumptions about this relationship, for the purposes of the Rune Power divine magic system. One that contradicts current rules is Inactive Initiates still being able to cast their divine spells. I wouldn't allow it. "You have forsaken me, but you still want a miracle?!?" I agree with your interpretation (Divine Intervention = Deity fills the worshipper. Divine Magic = Worshipper awakens spark of deity). The "worshipper becomes deity" thing comes right from Stafford. Whether this was a 'Gloranthan Fact' or a passing thought is beyond me. Re: God Learner Groupings of Magic Yes, the God Learner's mistake was they made too-broad generalizations in their observations. In their quest for the E=mc^2 of magic, they lost sense of the 'little picture' necessary to play a respectful part in the world. In being a "GL Sympathizer," I mean that I think it's OK to look at Spirit/Divine/Sorcery magics as distinct and dissimilar. * I like the idea of presenting this to new players, and then letting them discover the 'truth' as their Gloranthan sophistication develops.* Isn't it kind of neat to have been brought up within the Sartarite tradition, and then hear a mystic hermit (like Nick Brooke) say something that sounds familiar and believable, but which totally twists your previous beliefs? In Sartar, Humakti and Zorak Zorani have a good healthy hatred for each other. ZZs even make zombies! But, somewhere down in Pamaltela, these two are worshipped as brothers, _in the same temple_. If you like that one, ask Nick what he thinks!.. Re: Dormal My theory. The only reason the "Open Seas" ritual is listed as a Sorcery Spell is because the way you learn it. It's not an all-or-nothing spell you take from some spirit, and it's not a divine miracle you invoke. It's a _skill_ you develop. Abandon ship all hands whose Captain admits that this is his first voyage! "I've lived inland all my life, and the sea has a certain romanticism for me..." just won't cut it in Glorantha! By serving as a sailor, you can glance over at the captain how-many-times, and learn your first 10-25% of "Open Seas Ritual." By being First Mate, you actually take part, the Captain taking a more active role in teaching you the skill (if you mess up, he dies too). You've now got maybe 35-65%. Since it's a spell, you can take your time, and enhance the spell with Ceremony, raising your chance even more when the time comes. Related concept: I've seen several examples where players had to develop a skill to "invoke" a heroquest. You've got to slowly, bit by bit, to learn the procedure. Yea, that's it: each voyage is a Heroquest to overcome the adversity of the seas. I like that. (c) 1993, David Cheng ;-). Summary: The Open Seas spell has nothing to do with 'sorcery,' except that it is learned like any other skill (like sorcery). It is a great example of an exception to the God Learner rule that the three types of magical disciplines can't cross. Enough ranting from me. Come to RuneQuest-Con - we'll have a whole seminar on this stuff. We'll even get Nick Brooke to lead it (I've proposed this to him already, and await his reply, hint hint). -David Cheng drcheng@sales.stern.nyu.edu