Bell Digest v930903p1

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 03 Sep 1993, part 1
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Sender: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
Precedence: junk

The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.

Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM",
they will automatically be included in a next issue.  Try to change the
Subject: line from the default Re: RuneQuest Daily...  on replying.

Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest.  If you 
want to submit articles to the Digest only,  contact the editor at
RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM.

Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor:

RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld)

---------------------

From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham  , via RadioMail)
Subject: Speedy combat; initiative; Ikadz; Yelm
Message-ID: <9308311856.AA10025@radiomail.net>
Date: 31 Aug 93 18:56:13 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1507

Given that one of my prime reasons for RQ-Lite is speed of resolving
combat, why not start a new discussion on how people handle large (PCs
outnumbered, perhaps by up to 2:1) melees with the existing rules?
Abstracting is the obvious way, but it has its problems, since my players
always remember exactly what damage they did ("But I impaled him in the leg
last time, how come he's running away?"). And I feel NPCs should be treated
the same as PCs.

>From: C442196@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu (Newton Hughes)
>FIRST STRIKE
>  When 2 characters melee attack each other, both characters' attacks
>are resolved at the higher DEX.  If one character has the long weapon
>advantage (counting weapon SR only, not size) then the effect of his
>attack is resolved before his opponent's.

Why not have an optional rule that weapons add +1 to DEX (long weapons) or
-1 to DEX (short weapons)?

>From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
>So before I go on, here's GLoranthan lore question: In Big Rubble (Guide, p.
>23) there is mentioned a divinity named Ikadz the Torturer God; he is
>worshiped by some broos, but otherwise explained no further.  Anyone know
>more about this god?  I have worked on a torturer god, but he is not a
>chaotic.  In KoS, Ikadz is only very tangentially mentioned (p. 38), but
>there he seems to have influence over Earth fury goddesses.

Check the Prosopaedia of Gods of Glorantha.

>From: timbee@timbee.rnd.symix.com (Tim Beecher)
>>Unlike some modules from a company in Lake Geneva, the RQ
>>and Stormbringer modules usually deal more with plot, descriptions
>>and characterization than stats and game rules.
>
>I disagree , I think the big difference between RQ and Lake Geneva is that the
>materials presented in the RQ modules have been about 30% adaptable to the 
>average campaign and D&D runs about 50% last time I checked .

I can't speak for D&D, but the difficulty of using scenarios from the
modules has been a problem. They tend to be very difficult to drop into an
ongoing campaign. (This is why I like Griffin Mountain so much -- it was a
wonderful resource even when I was running non-Gloranthan RQ.)

BTW, the Blind King's Palace is in the Big Rubble in my campaign. Pavis, at
least, is easy to use intact. (Check "Lost City of Eldarad" for an example
:-)

>From: Tom.Zunder@cyberhm.royle.org (Tom Zunder)
>would you want to
>worship Kyger Litor or Yelm? One is a huge ancestor worship
>cult,
>with all those shamanic powers, the other is a classic deity cult with limited
>cult practices vis-a-vis magic and no shamanic power. Where Yelmic cultures win
>thru is in their civilisation and magical diversity. The best example being the
>Lunar Empire.

In my campaign, the Yelm culture is the Grazers, who do have shamans (as do
the Pentan nomads). And you'll note that the Lunar Empire took over the
Yelmic cultures, so they _didn't_ win.

David Dunham * Software Designer  *  Pensee Corporation
Voice/Fax: 206-783-7404 * AppleLink: DDUNHAM * Internet: ddunham@radiomail.net


---------------------

From: clay@cool.vortech.com (Clay Luther)
Subject: Watchdog of Corflu-Cyclops Connection
Message-ID: <199308311900.AA11440@cool.vortech.com>
Date: 31 Aug 93 09:00:54 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1508

Flipping through the latest copy of TotRM, I was reading the information about
the Cyclops.  It states that the Cylcops is the "same type of creature which
the Lunars unearthered in Feroda and made into the Watchdog of Corflu." 

Hmmm...

I had portrayed the Watchdog of Corflu as a "Colossus of Rhodes"-like
statue, guarding the Zola Fel south of Corflu. 

Does someone have a better idea of what the Watchdog is and looks like?  I
feel I must have missed something somewhere if the Watchdog and the Cyclops
are so much alike.

-- 
Clay Luther                              clay@cool.vortech.com
Software Engineer                        Kodak Health Imaging Systems
Yelo's gift was a necklace of clam shells from the Quel Stream strung on gut
string with a delicate knot of reeds which performed the role of pendant.

---------------------

From: C442196@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu (Newton Hughes)
Subject: re: Blind King's Palace
Message-ID: <9308311912.AA22679@Sun.COM>
Date: 31 Aug 93 18:43:23 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1509

Somebody mentioned the Blind King's Palace, which is on the Hill near
the Huntlands in the Rubble of old Pavis.  Is there information on
what's there?  Where do I find it?

Another question about the Rubble - there are conflicting accounts
about the Garden, somewhere it says that there's an artifact that makes
it stay green all year long, but in the cradle scenario it describes
leafless trees there.  So is the Garden always green or not?  If not,
what keeps the trolls out?  If it is, do brown elves from there ever
sleep?

Also, speaking of elves, I think the elemental associations given in
GoG are over-simplistic and misleading, and I don't like the idea
that trolls are the only ones associated with insects.  Elves ought
to have some relationship with them, too; they're not just enemies.

Another Rubble trivia question:  there's a temple ruin in the middle
of the Rubble somewhere that no one can enter safely without first
eating a particular kind of root.  Is there any more information
about that one out there?

About Mr. Wilton's opinion, why join a cult when there's no divine
spells:  back in rq2 allowing a mere initiate to sacrifice for a one-
use rune spell was a rare sign of divine favor, not a wholesale
business like rq3 makes it.  That has the advantage of cutting down
on the power-jumping problem, since in rq2 new rune priests don't
have heaps of spells converted from 1-use to reusable.

I'd like to see the daily get away from the rules junk and back
to Gloranthan trivia and speculation.  My opinion of the rqlite
is, that if all it is going to amount to is another cruddy rule book,
one that tells people, "Oh, you don't have to use the hit location
rules if you don't want to," as if people don't have the brains
to figure that out for themselves, then it's gonna be a miserable
waste of time.

What you want is a book for players, to help the gm explain the
world to them, outline the coolest cults and give them some idea
what's going on to protect them from fantasy-culture-shock, with
fast character creation, maybe some rules, but mostly something
to introduce new people to Glorantha.  It should be set firmly
in Sartar just before the Lunar invasion.

You've got to think in terms of marketing this to outsiders.  If
you don't then Glorantha is doomed.

Newton

---------------------

From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: baooga!
Message-ID: 
Date: 31 Aug 93 20:49:20 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1510

Greg Fried here.

More GLoranthan lore questions!
-- I have read that the Issaries cult is a God Learner construct, but I can't
remember where.  Is this true?!  My Balazaring Issaries cultist I onced
played would be appalled!  What is the meaning of this?!   The only thing I
can think of is that the God Learners would have devised Issaries as a
'front' god to get a hold of the divine magic of other cults.  Hm.  I guess
that's pretty durned sneaky of them!
-- I also seem to remember reading that the reason Arkat and the Arkati could
hunt down Gbaji Illuminates so well was that they were Illuminated
themselves!  Hence, they had the Illuminate's abilitiy to detect other
Illuminates.  WHere is this, or am I dreaming?
-- What is it with this Ralzakark dude?  Did anyone else get the impression
from reading Dorastor that he is even MORE than the awsome heroquesting
Illuminate that he seems to be?  Given that "other Ralzakark", the "hairy
broo with a scorpion arm" (depicted on the cover of the Genertela box!), it
seems to me as if Ralzakark the unicorn thing/hairy broo is a mirror image,
or echo of Nysalor/Gbaji himself.  WHat all this means, I know not.
-------
David Cake and Jeff:
You both have some valid cautionary points to make about RQLite.  Arachne
Solara preserve us from repeating the error of "Standard" RuneQuest!  The
thing about Standard RQ was that is was not easier, just incomplete!  How
silly.   RQLite must be complete and playbale as is, and yet not impossible
to use with already published material.  It seems to me that AH is now
publishing materials that combine several forms of suplement, and that this
is an error.  Cults should not be available only in a book filled with
scenarios which only the GM should own.  Flame me again for making such
comparisons, but RQLite should be more like D&D's Player's Handbook:
something the episodic RQers could buy, read, and have everything s/he needs
at ready disposal to jump right into the game.  This should include easy
character generation rules and simple combat system, but also cool Gloranthan
material on cult and cultural background to draw players into their
characters.  This background stuff should be at the micro level, not the maxi
level of supplements like Gods of GLorantha, Genertela, etc -- stuff that a
player can sink their teeth into imagining their character as an adventurer. 
This is the stuff that draws in new players.  If you only publish things that
the GM will buy, you are severly limiting your market.  TSR has very
cynically manipulated this insight: there's the "fighter's" book", the
"cleric's" book, blah blah blah.  Now, a Humakti book would be pretty cool! 
But I'm drifing a bit off from RQLite.  

GF out.

---------------------

From: Brian.Curley@ccmail.adp.wisc.edu (Brian CURLEY)
Subject: RQ Difficult to teach...
Message-ID: <9307317468.AA746839475@ccmail.adp.wisc.edu>
Date: 31 Aug 93 22:24:35 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1511


I'll have to assume this was addressed to me...(it's Brian BTW):

>Bryan:
>You may have a 180 IQ, but a lot of my players don't!  As David wrote, the
>problem with RQ is that it is not easy to teach and combats take a long while
>to resolve.  Personally, I like complex, advanced publications, but I know
>the market for the game cannot support this forever if RQ's share does not
>expand.

No...I don't have a 180 IQ. And it doesn't take one to teach RQ to players. I
have personally never
had any trouble teaching the game to new players. All it takes is patience and a
GM who can make the game interesting for the players. What exactly is *so* hard
to teach? A lot of people around these parts make teaching Strike Ranks (which
have been around since the beginning) sound like teaching Differential Equations
and it's just not so. 

As for combat taking a long time, that's a matter of opinion. Until I started
reading this daily, I had *never* heard this complaint of RQ. AD&D may be
faster, but you sacrifice a lot to get that speed. I personally like the system
that gives my character multiple actions per round based on a high DEX, rather
than one that gives it to every Tom, Dick or Harry fighter who reaches 5th level
or higher (regardless if they have DEXs of 8 or 9). 

I really think that anyone who *can't* teach RQ to their players simply isn't
taking the time to do it right.


Brian
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
x  Brian.Curley@ccmail.adp.wisc.edu                                             
         x
x      "Just when you think no one knows you're alive, try missing             x
x          a few car payments" -- author unknown                                
       x
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

---------------------

From: carlf@panix.com (Carl Fink)
Subject: Labyrinths of reason
Message-ID: <199309010050.AA04309@panix.com>
Date: 31 Aug 93 16:50:23 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1512

ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham  , via RadioMail) writes in part:

Subject: Re: Sorcery; Re: Glorantha

>>From: MCKAY_MICHAEL@tandem.com
>>Subject: RQ 3 Sorcery, actually works!
>>
>>    I heard it said many times that the sorcery system from Rune Quest III is
>>totally unworkable, or that it leads to grotesque situations.

>I never noticed problems, either. (As of last year, I know a lot of the RQ4
>changes were intended to address problems at high levels. Having never GMed
>or run in a high level campaign, I think that's wasted effort. I think the
>sorcery complaints were based on Really Powerful sorcerers.)

  Um, David, did you really just say that if a problem didn't occur
in your game, it's "wasted effort" to fix it?  For the record, my
campaign never had problems either, but other people did report
finding the game unplayable because of sorcery.



gadbois@cs.utexas.edu (David Gadbois) writes in part:

>Let me strongly encourage everyone playing in Home of the Bold to
>bring a costume.  I initially thought costumes were, well, silly, but
>when I saw the costumes for the game run at Convulsion, I realized
>that they do add a lot to the game.  The Humakti with their Death Rune
>facepaint, the Praxians dressed in the manner of Plains Indians, the
>Lunar garrison with their Roman-like attire -- it was really cool.

  Um, I haven't received anything back about attending, but will we
*know in advance* who we're playing?  If not, arranging costumes will
be very hard, yes?



  Why "Labyrinths of Reason" for a subject?  Because it's an excellent
book by William Poundstone, and I recommend it to you all.
                                                                                       

---------------------

From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 31 Aug 1993, part 1
Message-ID: <9309010311.AA00937@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 1 Sep 93 03:11:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1513

Paul Reilly here.
 Greg  Fried asks about Ikadz.  Around here he is quite important and
one friend is working on a full writeup.  I will post some of our ideas
at length later (next month?) but let me say that he has a short writeup
in the Prosopaedia (Gods of Glorantha box) and a mention in the 
Glorantha Book of the GM set.  In our campaign he is not all bad; in fact
he helps 'cleanse' people on their way to the Forge of Souls and is god
of surgeons and dentists as well as torturers.  More when I have more
time.



>I always wondered why there was no scenario
>pack of Chaos Nests or Bandits

  Agree, will try to rectify.  Let me copyright or TM the name "DANGEROUS
GROUND" at this point for Mike Holliday, who is working on such a thing
(with me to be involved as well...)


  Tom Zunder contrast Kyger Litor (Glorified Ancestor worship) with
Yelm (Classic Kult.)  We think Yelm is ancestor worship as well:
1.  Only those of  noble blood may qualify as Yelm initiates.
2. The old noble lines are descended from Yelm, First Emperor.

  Q.E.D.

---------------------

From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Dorastor thoughts
Message-ID: 
Date: 1 Sep 93 21:46:14 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1514

Surprisingly soon I got my copy of Dorastor - Land of Doom. Quite a 
pleasant land, were there not all this chaos running around.

The legend of the Wolfbear led me to speculation: After all, there is 
one chief of the Wolf Pirates who has conquered the White Bear of 
Rathorela, a certain berserk...

Too wild speculations?

Those of us still hunting for their PhD in Gloranthan Lore got a bit to 
chew on. Ralzakark is _not_ the bad guy, only illuminated, and far from 
being a monster - if he choses so. Rather face him than Harrek. He even 
has Chalana Arroy broos in service. A real gentleman trying to keep the 
chaos hordes in line.

The Feldichi, god-time inhabitants of Dorastor, might be worth a 
heroquest along the same line of Argrath's during the Cradle scenario 
where he brought the (extinct) Golden Wheel Dancer. Funny nobody has 
done so, yet, or did anyone? Successfully?

Another rather obscure mention of Harmast Barefoot's heroquest for 
Arkat. Are there any more detailed sources?

The Mad Sultan: Is it still sultanates, or ought we change this to the 
"Mad Satrap"? The speculation that the title Sultan was imported by the 
Pent Nomads has been contradicted by the nformation on page 15, whee 
Sylila became a Sultanate already in 1326. Is it Satrapy now? Then why 
didn't the change make it into Dorastor?

Uroxi outside of Prax:
How do they view their deity? It cannot be the desert storm like in 
Prax and the Wastelands. How many are there? What is their position in 
hill barbarian society, are they similar to the berserks in old Norse 
sagas, a special class of houscarls? (Both Celtic and Viking warlords 
kept fighters with combat frenzy in their entourage.)

Riskland:
How come the differences between Dragon Pass resettlement described in 
King of Sartar (in stockades and hillforts wherever possible) and 
riskland pioneers (single steads)?

Why does Vinga (Orlanth Adventurous) replace Flesh Man in the 
Lightbringers' council? And Lomi Ulrood seems quite respectable for a 
trickster.

From the head count the Riskland grant cannot be much older than one 
year. Are there no upright Orlanthi in the Lunar Occupied Zone left?


Dorastan Economics:

The comment lately about the stupid Lunar merchant with his low-skilled 
guards made me calcuate his expenses and possible profits.
Each of these guards costs at least 3000 L in magic with Ralzakark, and 
a years salary (approx. 2300 L, RQ4-draft yearly standard for average 
mercenaries) in addition.
He carries trade goods for approx. 60 000 L in his four wagons. If he 
can sell them for thrice their price in the Lunar empire, that will be 
120 000 L in profit, minus travel expenses.
The magic items Ralzakark takes as toll cost ca. 65 000 L. Twenty 
guards will ask ca 47 000 L as salary (bonus for leader included). This 
leaves ca 8 000 L as profit (the yearly income of a master merchant), 
provided the merchant suffers no losses. Unless this guy is a genius at 
bargaining (117% might be sufficient), or gets merchandise which will 
sell for triple the Ralian price in the Lunar empire, this trip will 
give him nothing. If he manages to buy gods which sell back home, he 
will make a fat profit of ca 125 000 L.
Not counted in this calculation is his extra project, which will cost 
him another 10 000 L, but has the possibility to raise tenfold the cost 
as profit.

The question whether the merhant is stupd to rely on these guards 
depends on their value in a fight. The standard of living table doubles 
the expenses for the mercenaries for each "level" of experience. Are 
ten guards with skills in the 75% (master mounted warrior) as effective 
as 20 guards with skills in the 60% range? Only if the answer is a 
definite yes, the merchant will save 30 000 L in magical items.
Since experience cannot be counted from afar, but numbers can, I think 
the merchant took a calculated risk to hire the mercenaries he has.



-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

---------------------

From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham  , via RadioMail)
Subject: What's wrong with RQ3 Sorcery?
Message-ID: <9309020620.AA06066@radiomail.net>
Date: 2 Sep 93 06:20:06 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1515

>From: akuma@netcom.com (Steven E Barnes)
>Are we talking about the same rules?  You only have to look at
>the example sorcerors in Griffin Island to see the problem.  If
>the laughable Free INT mechanism was replaced, then Sorcery
>might work.  These bizarre effects occur, even in low-powered games.  

I'm really not sure what's so bad about the Griffin Island sorcerers. (As
it happens, I've been using Griffin Island for my PenDragon Pass campaign,
and no NPC sorcerer has cast any spells...) This may have been discussed ad
nauseum in the past, but explain it for us densies. Sorcerers cast big
spells that last for days. So? Because of Free INT, they tend to make
devices to help them cast spells. So? Non-specialist users of sorcery are
wimps. True, but those aren't the ones you're complaining about.

David Dunham * Software Designer  *  Pensee Corporation
Voice/Fax: 206-783-7404 * AppleLink: DDUNHAM * Internet: ddunham@radiomail.net


---------------------

From: yfcw29@castle.edinburgh.ac.uk
Subject: Yet more RQLite ravings
Message-ID: <9309011643.aa21714@uk.ac.ed.castle>
Date: 1 Sep 93 15:43:11 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1516

> From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
> Subject: Re: RQ Lite
> 
> 	Remember that something similar to RQ Lite has been tried, the RQ3
> 'Standard' edition (which was never a standard!). This boxed set was RQ3
> without background material, most spells, some skills (I think), and much of >the
> magic system. It sold badly (I am pretty sure), was pretty useless, and caused
> RQ supplements to be polluted with repition of the rules for the benefit ofthe
> poor fools who bought RQ Standard. Any RQ Lite must not repeat this mistake!
> RQ Standard and the handling of the rules compatibility problems it presented
> was a major complaint of the Tales crew in 'Ruined-Quest', lets not do it 
> again.

I agree wholeheartedly. That is a very easy trap to fall into. The key
problem was that there was no way to upgrade from RQ Standard to more advanced
versions of the rules, you could not just buy extensions of the rules. If you wanted the full rules, you had to buy everything from scratch again. Games
Workshop in England avoided this problem very effectively. They split the RQ3
rules up into Basic RQ and Advanced RQ books. You could get a rudimentary set of
rules just by buying the Basic RQ book, then upgrade later if you wanted. If 
you wanted full RQ you had to buy both books, but with only a tiny ammount
of repeated material in the two books. This worked fine.

This underpins the RQLite idea. I realy think RQLite should not be a separate
game as such. Rather, it should be the first RQ set EVERYBODY buys, those of us
with an interest in full RQ then buy other stuff too.

The list of contents you provide is a good compromise. I do not know the Elric
game (it is not over here in England yet), so I don't know it's
special/crit/fumble method, but I think this rules mechanism should be the same
in both RQLite and full RQ.

>		Thats enough for now, some feedback/debate is appreciated 
> (though perhaps the RQ4 list is more appropriate).

I'm affraid I don't have access to the RQ4 list, or know anything about it.
I would be interested in joining it though. Is it run by the same people
as this list?

Simon

---------------------

From: akuma@netcom.com (Steven E Barnes)
Subject: Mail problem
Message-ID: <9309020647.AA06653@netcom3.netcom.com>
Date: 1 Sep 93 16:47:16 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1517


I have recieved this digest at least three times now:

Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 01 Sep 1993, part 1

I have recieved other duplicates as well.

-steve