From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 07 Sep 1993, part 2
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Sender: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
Precedence: junk
The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.
Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM",
they will automatically be included in a next issue. Try to change the
Subject: line from the default Re: RuneQuest Daily... on replying.
Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest. If you
want to submit articles to the Digest only, contact the editor at
RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM.
Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor:
RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld)
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 03 Sep 1993
Message-ID:
Date: 4 Sep 93 19:16:58 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1544
Finally some real two part Daily again. And lots to throw 0.02 DM in.
_____________________________
David Dunham in X-RQ-ID: 1507
Subject: Speedy combat; initiative; Ikadz; Yelm
>Given that one of my prime reasons for RQ-Lite is speed of resolving
>combat, why not start a new discussion on how people handle large (PCs
>outnumbered, perhaps by up to 2:1) melees with the existing rules?
>Abstracting is the obvious way, but it has its problems, since my players
>always remember exactly what damage they did ("But I impaled him in the leg
>last time, how come he's running away?"). And I feel NPCs should be treated
>the same as PCs.
I handle that very much out of my head. That is: I make notes which
opponent got how many hits where. Other than that, my opponents are
pretty generic. I have "memorized" the human hitpoints per location
table (I calculate them quickly, *0.25 for arms, 0.40 for chest, rest
*0.33) and decide out of the situation whether a specific opponent is
tough (4HP in the arm) or very tough (5HP). Now and then I allow them
some spirit healing, maybe some divine too, if appropriate.
I tend to split larger conflicts in smaller ones, with e.g. two
opponents against three. Excess opponents do magic, or fire missiles.
But then combats either were quite short because the opponents were
weaker than the PC party, or whenever not, the fight deserved to be
played out at some detail.
>>From: C442196@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu (Newton Hughes)
>>FIRST STRIKE
>> When 2 characters melee attack each other, both characters' attacks
>>are resolved at the higher DEX. If one character has the long weapon
>>advantage (counting weapon SR only, not size) then the effect of his
>>attack is resolved before his opponent's.
>Why not have an optional rule that weapons add +1 to DEX (long weapons) or
>-1 to DEX (short weapons)?
I don't want to get rid of the SIZ advantage (ok, I'm two meters tall
myself, and prejudiced). Maybe give +-1 for for extreme SIZ as well?
Else we get a characteristic that has neglectible influence on the
game, and might as well be skipped.
>I can't speak for D&D, but the difficulty of using scenarios from the
>modules has been a problem. They tend to be very difficult to drop into an
>ongoing campaign. (This is why I like Griffin Mountain so much -- it was a
>wonderful resource even when I was running non-Gloranthan RQ.)
Well, I have yet to play any scenario as published, except the first
two and a half in the Vikings box.
>BTW, the Blind King's Palace is in the Big Rubble in my campaign. Pavis, at
>least, is easy to use intact. (Check "Lost City of Eldarad" for an example
>:-)
>>From: Tom.Zunder@cyberhm.royle.org (Tom Zunder)
>>would you want to
>>worship Kyger Litor or Yelm? One is a huge ancestor worship
>>cult,
>>with all those shamanic powers, the other is a classic deity cult with limited
>>cult practices vis-a-vis magic and no shamanic power. Where Yelmic cultures win
>>thru is in their civilisation and magical diversity. The best example being the
>>Lunar Empire.
>In my campaign, the Yelm culture is the Grazers, who do have shamans (as do
>the Pentan nomads). And you'll note that the Lunar Empire took over the
>Yelmic cultures, so they _didn't_ win.
Arguable. They tolerate the Red Moon for now, and even propagate it, to
spread their influence, when I look at Fazzur's successor Tatius the
Bright. By doing so, the civilized Dara Happans use the semi-civilized,
semi-barbarian Lunar Satrapies to pay it back to the barbarian
Orlanthi. And then I heard somewhere that Illumination (the underlying
base for Lunar insights) originally is a solar concept...
Concerning the horse nomads:
I always thought that the differences in lifestyle between them and the
Praxians were only superficial - Eiritha's beasts being of the Earth,
and horses being of the Sky. Yelm's role is pretty much that of Waha -
the chieftain who teaches the skills appropriate to the nomadic
lifestyle. I don't know whether "Awaken Horse" would be available
instead of the sedentary "Awaken Hawk" spell, but it seems appropriate.
Foundchild would translate as Golden Bow, Eiritha as either Hippoi or
Dendara (in her different aspects), and there is no real equivalent for
Storm Bull - at best one of Yelmalio's brothers, or Cold Shiny himself.
Brutality in Solar cultures is of the cold minded, subtle variety,
including delicate torture and burning.
Anybody with better information than my suggestions around?
____________________________
Clay Luther in X-RQ-ID: 1508
Subject: Watchdog of Corflu-Cyclops Connection
>Flipping through the latest copy of TotRM, I was reading the information about
>the Cyclops. It states that the Cylcops is the "same type of creature which
>the Lunars unearthered in Feroda and made into the Watchdog of Corflu."
>I had portrayed the Watchdog of Corflu as a "Colossus of Rhodes"-like
>statue, guarding the Zola Fel south of Corflu.
Which direction, by the way? In the cradle scenario it faced the coming
cradle, if I remember correctly.
>Does someone have a better idea of what the Watchdog is and looks like? I
>feel I must have missed something somewhere if the Watchdog and the Cyclops
>are so much alike.
Having read all the heavy GL stuff in Tales 10, I wouldn't be surprised
if the original statue at Feroda was pretty much alive, even though
standing across the river. The watchdog is the Lunar reconstruction of
the God Learner abomination. Since not all parts have been found by
1621, there's only the head and two arms atached to it.
______________________________
Newton Hughes in X-RQ-ID: 1509
Subject: re: Blind King's Palace
>Also, speaking of elves, I think the elemental associations given in
>GoG are over-simplistic and misleading, and I don't like the idea
>that trolls are the only ones associated with insects. Elves ought
>to have some relationship with them, too; they're not just enemies.
Well, in my gameworld insects are reserved for trolls living in the
southern jungles. The northern species use rather pleistocenic mammals
not unike themselves. I've made up some major alterations to their
family tree, which includes moles (in an early stage) and rubble
runners. All non-Gloranthan, mind me.
>About Mr. Wilton's opinion, why join a cult when there's no divine
>spells: back in rq2 allowing a mere initiate to sacrifice for a one-
>use rune spell was a rare sign of divine favor, not a wholesale
>business like rq3 makes it. That has the advantage of cutting down
>on the power-jumping problem, since in rq2 new rune priests don't
>have heaps of spells converted from 1-use to reusable.
RQ2 Runelords had little incentive to learn divine magic, either, they
got it one-use like the initiates. They rather relied on divine
intervention which did the job as well. To get reusable Rune magic they
had to become Priest-Lords.
In non-Gloranthan RQ3 there really is not much point in becoming an
initiate other than getting Rune magic and divine intervention. The
ransom idea has been dropped from the rules, the generic cults offer no
real backbone, and in the Vikings- and Ninja-settings the rules were
bent beyond recognisance. Which leaves Griffin Island, whose deities
lack the flesh their Griffin Mountain Gloranthan equivalents had.
Dropping the Rune Lord from the rules was one of the biggest mistakes
in RQ3. Rune Lords are essential for the way Glorantha works, and must
be included in any future version of RQ. They give the characters a
goal to achieve if they concentrate on adventuring.
>I'd like to see the daily get away from the rules junk and back
>to Gloranthan trivia and speculation. My opinion of the rqlite
>is, that if all it is going to amount to is another cruddy rule book,
>one that tells people, "Oh, you don't have to use the hit location
>rules if you don't want to," as if people don't have the brains
>to figure that out for themselves, then it's gonna be a miserable
>waste of time.
>What you want is a book for players, to help the gm explain the
>world to them, outline the coolest cults and give them some idea
>what's going on to protect them from fantasy-culture-shock, with
>fast character creation, maybe some rules, but mostly something
>to introduce new people to Glorantha. It should be set firmly
>in Sartar just before the Lunar invasion.
>You've got to think in terms of marketing this to outsiders. If
>you don't then Glorantha is doomed.
Full agreement here. As I have taken from a late night chat with David
Hall at the German RuneQuest-Con this year, Gloranthan roleplaying is
going to develop in two different directions, with two different games
to play: Traditional adventuring style being covered by RuneQuest, as
presented in RQ2, and cultural orientated roleplaying rather like
Pendragon style, only without the obligation to go on quests. This
would be covered by "Glorantha - the Game", to be developed by Greg
Stafford, or by PenDragon Pass style games.
One problem with RuneQuest-scenarios or campaigns now is that RQ3
attempts a mixture of both, which apparently doesn't sell too well. As
much as I like the "rural families" campaign style which permeates
several RQ3 publications (Vikings, Ninja, Riskland in Dorastor, even
Votanki in Griffin Island), this doesn't necessarily appeal to
newcomers to the game. These can be convinced and won over by the
quality of the mechanics and the richness of the background, but to
introduce them simultaneously to this very advanced style of playing
may very well ask too much.
So if we want to get a larger RuneQuest audience, what we need are
"action" scenarios which can be included at different places. They
still can be embedded in Glorantha and have a decent background
description, but don't make it necessary to travel long distances to
reach places like Snake Pipe Hollow just to play one scenario.
___________________________
Greg Fried in X-RQ-ID: 1510
Subject: baooga!
>More Gloranthan lore questions!
>-- I have read that the Issaries cult is a God Learner construct, but I can't
>remember where. Is this true?! My Balazaring Issaries cultist I onced
>played would be appalled! What is the meaning of this?! The only thing I
>can think of is that the God Learners would have devised Issaries as a
>'front' god to get a hold of the divine magic of other cults. Hm. I guess
>that's pretty durned sneaky of them!
Cool down. The God Learners mucked up virtually every existing deity in
their time, and they used quite a few of them. Wachaza was made their
prominent deity of war, and Issaries maybe got their "gift" of spell
trading to allow easier access to foreign cult secrets. Who can say
after the cataclysmic events towards the end of the second age which
central Genertelan cult was touched by them, and which wasn't? Slontos
sank, the Dragon Pass region was scoured by the Dragonkill War, and
central Peloria was decimated by these events. Less than 150 years
later the Red Goddess did her part in overthrowing that area's system
of belief. Fronela suffered from the Syndics Bane 200 years later,
maybe Charg still has the original forms of worship, and Ralios and
Seshnela had been centers of God Learner activities.
>-- I also seem to remember reading that the reason Arkat and the Arkati could
>hunt down Gbaji Illuminates so well was that they were Illuminated
>themselves! Hence, they had the Illuminate's abilitiy to detect other
>Illuminates. WHere is this, or am I dreaming?
You aren't. It was in the Nysalor write-up in Cults of Terror, Dorastor
has it, too, less explicit, on page 127, second last paragraph on the
right.
>-- What is it with this Ralzakark dude? Did anyone else get the impression
>from reading Dorastor that he is even MORE than the awsome heroquesting
>Illuminate that he seems to be? Given that "other Ralzakark", the "hairy
>broo with a scorpion arm" (depicted on the cover of the Genertela box!), it
>seems to me as if Ralzakark the unicorn thing/hairy broo is a mirror image,
>or echo of Nysalor/Gbaji himself. WHat all this means, I know not.
Thanks for pointing out that to me, this seems to support my theory on
the Wolf-Bear's identity - after all, it is Harrek who actively fights
that scorpion armed broo on that cover. Who is that Humakti supporting
him?
[...]
>characters. This background stuff should be at the micro level, not the maxi
>level of supplements like Gods of GLorantha, Genertela, etc -- stuff that a
>player can sink their teeth into imagining their character as an adventurer.
>This is the stuff that draws in new players. If you only publish things that
>the GM will buy, you are severly limiting your market. TSR has very
>cynically manipulated this insight: there's the "fighter's" book", the
>"cleric's" book, blah blah blah. Now, a Humakti book would be pretty cool!
>But I'm drifing a bit off from RQLite.
Not really. RQ Lite ought to have Orlanth Adventurous (RQ2-Style
including Vinga), Humakt/Yanafal Tarnils, Storm Bull, Yelmalio, Chalana
Arroy, Ernalda plus and without Orlanth Thunderous (including Barntar,
Voriof, Grain Goddess (which for Sartar?), Heler), Seven Mothers,
Etyries/Issaries, Lhankor Mhy/Irrippi Ontor, Babeester Gor, Eurmal in
slightly extended Gods of Glorantha format. This would take up maybe 8
pages. Non-human deities aren't that relevant for a Sartar campaign, if
any, include Argan Argar (friendly trolls, trollkin), Zorak Zoran
(berserk trolls), Aldrya. Definitely not Kyger Litor again! Leave the
Praxian deities and customs for a Prax pack, and introduce sorcery
using cults with a Holy Country pack (is there anyone working on such a
thing? I might be interested to participate). Leave out areas detailed
by other supplements (Lismelder and Jonstown are worked upon, after my
knowledge, but Southwest Sartar round Wilms Church seems to be Blank
Land with regard to scenarios.
_____________________________
Brian Curley in X-RQ-ID: 1511
Subject: RQ Difficult to teach...
>As for combat taking a long time, that's a matter of opinion. Until I started
>reading this daily, I had *never* heard this complaint of RQ. AD&D may be
>faster, but you sacrifice a lot to get that speed. I personally like the system
No, AD&D is neither faster nor easier to teach. If you ever had to
figure out whether a creature could be hit at all by a critical in
AD&D, you'll delight in the simple combat rules in RQ.
>I really think that anyone who *can't* teach RQ to their players simply isn't
>taking the time to do it right.
Or has forgotten how to use simple rules. I have introduced players to
roleplaying a log time ago, and I used a very simple system. Since then
I have only converted reasonably experienced roleplayers to my system,
which happens to be RuneQuest for the last 4 years. I'd be hard put to
explain it to newcomers now. Maybe I'll try, one of these days.
_____________________________
David Dunham in X-RQ-ID: 1515
Subject: What's wrong with RQ3 Sorcery?
>>From: akuma@netcom.com (Steven E Barnes)
>>Are we talking about the same rules? You only have to look at
>>the example sorcerors in Griffin Island to see the problem. If
>>the laughable Free INT mechanism was replaced, then Sorcery
>>might work. These bizarre effects occur, even in low-powered games.
>I'm really not sure what's so bad about the Griffin Island sorcerers. (As
>it happens, I've been using Griffin Island for my PenDragon Pass campaign,
>and no NPC sorcerer has cast any spells...) This may have been discussed ad
>nauseum in the past, but explain it for us densies. Sorcerers cast big
>spells that last for days. So? Because of Free INT, they tend to make
>devices to help them cast spells. So? Non-specialist users of sorcery are
>wimps. True, but those aren't the ones you're complaining about.
Griffin Island had quite a bunch of overpowered characters, Blueface
the shaman being the grossest. Noone complained abut him. Why not?
I can only agree that non-specialist sorcerers are whimps. I once
played an apprentice with reasonable 6 points of Free INT. Had this guy
not previously spent some time in the militia, he wouldn't have
survived. Even a beginning adept sorcerer isn't all that powerful, an
acolyte with an allied spirit will rival him without problems.
The adept sorcerer PC in my campaign keeps several spells active with a
two weeks duration. He wastes more effort on that than a spirit
magician with equivalent POW sources would, because his spells succeed
too unrelyably. What makes him stronger than most are his familiars and
bound spirits. Familiars are hard to get for ordinary initiates, but
cheaper than for RQ3 sorcerers, and bound spirits are available to
whomsoever with the right amount of treasure.
And when a sorcerer has mastered all of his spells, his divine magic
colleague will already have walked the hero path, with approx. 20
points of reusable Rune magic available. No, sorcerers are not
overpowered.
____________________________
Paul Kemper in X-RQ-ID: 1518
Subject: Initiative in RQ
>A long time ago our RQ group developed a dislike of strike ranks and
>adopted (read: shamelessly stole) the combat advantage system used in
>Skyrealms of Jorune. This system (dubbed JoRunequest) is yet another
>interesting mutation of the RQ 3 system. With apologies to the RQLite crowd
>(who would like to simplify game mechanics), here's the idea:
Why apologize? This here is the playground of the pros, and I like the
occasional rules variant.
>At the start of each combat round (which are now 2 sec. long), PCs and NPCs
>roll a d20 and add various modifiers. The result determines what the
>character can do in the round and the order of actions (highest advantage
>goes first) as per the following table:
[table deleted]
This seems fairly uncomplicated to me. The modifier calculated would
replace the strike rank entry on the data sheet. One die roll more per
combat round, and a simple mechanism to determine the number of
actions, and probably less die rolls in the combat round.
>There are some other modifiers that have to do with defender prone, etc.
>which are not as useful, but I will send them to anyone who's interested.
Here! Me! I'm interested!
>Though the advantage (or, as its known by some, the disadvantage) system
>may seem to add a lot of complexity, it actually cuts down the number of
>die rolls per round as insuring that low skilled individuals will act less
>often (and sometimes not at all).
This might extend the time a combat takes a bit, and may be a double penalty
for low skills, but the overall efffect might actually improve the probability
curve for combat results.
______________________
Simon in X-RQ-ID: 1519
Subject: Who are these Vingan babes?
>Any Grey Sages out there?
Well, I wear a beard, and read a lot. Does that qualify? :-)
>There is an obscure refference in 'King Of Sartar" which I would
>like to know a bit more about. The 'Vingans' are mentioned several times.
>They appear to be a women's warrior or adventuring cult and are reputed
>to dye their hair red. They seem important enough to sometimes appear on the
>ruling councils in some clans or tribes. I do not have KoS with me at the
>moment, so I am working purely from my recollections and can't give page
>references. I believe they are in the Index though. Does anyone know
>anything about these people?
The most informative sections in the index are on page 90, where Heort
is said to be son of a Vingan mother, and eighth generation descendant
from Vingkot (note the similarity of name).
What follows is wild speculation by Joe of the Tree Garden clan,
Lhankor Mhy associate:
The Vingkotlings are said to be the original Orlanthi tribe in Dragon
Pass. From there they spread into Heortland, and presumably into the
other directions (i.e. westward), too.
Since Orlanth was born in Dragon Pass, it can well be assumed that the
Vingkotlings founded by Vingkot Orlanthson were the first Orlanthi
tribe ever on Glorantha.
(The epithet Orlanthson given to tribal founders of the pre-darkness
might well be taken in verbal sense. If they were maybe not fathered by
the Thunderer himself, then at least they could have been the (then not
yet) mortal offspring of the Thunder Brothers, the later sons of
Orlanth and Ernalda.)
Also the Harandings mentioned in "Orlanth the Justice-Bringer" claim
descendance from a king (indicating tribal status) with the epithet
"Orlanthson". This indicates several tribes already in pre-Greater
Darkness history.
This always puzzled me: How did the various tribes come into existence,
When and how did the Theyalans migrate westward (into eastern Fronela,
Ralios, Wenelia)? For migrated they must have, since Dragon Pass always
had been the home province of Orlanth's power. There are few sources
about this, apart from Dawn Age Talastar and fuzzy records in King of
Sartar. The Ralian question has never been answered, to my knowledge.
_____________________________
Colin Watson in X-RQ-ID: 1520
Subject: Quick training system
>Anyone interested in a quick-training system for RQ3? Read on.
>(Newton Hughes wrote)
>This is a good point. The hour-by-hour system for training in RQIII gets
>real tedious, so we developed a system of week-by-week training that
>gives similar results and is quick to calculate.
[...]
>I hope someone finds the training system useful - it's saved hours in our
>campaign.
Dirty, easy, nice.
______________________________
Donald Wilton in X-RQ-ID: 1522
>This is in support of some of this first Daily. I agree that we need
>sorcery. i find that the matter rests on the skills. If you combined Lunar
>sorcery with regular, you might get this:
>an apprentice, using an enchantment, can use Lunar sorcery. This creates
>skills. upon creating a familiar, she switches over to regular sorcery.
>Once you have skills in all of the sorcery capabilities, then switching to
>regular doesn't require a major mod for characters. They do get major
>level sorcery, soon. The apprentices are also fairly powerful magic users
>until then. this works if you get rid of the Lunars, but for an RQLite,
>this might make sense. I see the Lite version as introducing RQ as a game
>system. The mechanics of the system make sense, and that goes a long way
>towards creating the desire for players.
I for my person want sorcery to be different from Spirit magic. The
"Lunar Sorcery" as presented in GoG was little else than the RQ2 rune
magic modifications spells (Extension, Multispell) for combat magic
expressed as skills, and weakened sorely. WRT "Lunar Sorcery" I'd say
back to the roots: use Paul Reilly's and Mike Holliday's (sp?) presece
system, i.e. have the sorcerer sacrifice permanent POW to uphold or
manipulate spells, and let him regain use of these e.g. by meditation -
for Lunar magicians either in a temple or under the full moon. Works
similar to enchantments, but doesn't involve objects.
___________________________
Greg Fried in X-RQ-ID: 1524
>Can anyone out there tell me about the White Moon? Why was there no Moon in
>the Gloranthan sky at the time of the Red Moon's rise?
The Blue Moon was shattered during the Darkness, and only the remaining
hulk travels the outer sky. The Red Moon is a stationary rock robbed
from Ernalda/Gata and presumptiously hung into the Middle Air, not the
sky. The White Moon which is prophesied e.g. in Peloria and in Mostali
myths, as described in teh Glorantha Box. And about one month ago there
were wild speculations about Lunar colours right here in the Daily.
>Yes, I too would like an encyclopeadic reference work on Glorantha, and I
>also agree that RPGs now seem most successful when based on a rich, exciting
>world. RQLite should not EXCLUDE such things, but rather allow new players
>and GMs easier initial ACCESS to them. This is an important
distinction.
As much as I'd welcome a Gloranthan encyclopaedia, I'd vote for a
modular one, since (hopefully) more and more details are revealed with
the course of time, and it would be nice to be able to update it
without much trouble.
____________________________
David Scott in X-RQ-ID: 1525
Subject: RQLite Yawn
>Fellow RQ Players
>Time to launch a rescue mission for the RQ Digest!
>A few months ago we were bored senseless by endless sorcery witterings..... Now
>it seems to be the in-depth mechanics of RQ Lite. I think most people will say
>yes to it but do we have to go on and on about it!!
Then catch our attention! There are enough people on board who will
follow an interesting thread.
>BTW Where is Nick Brooke these days? He has been awfly quiet..RQ Daily
>calling Nick Brooke come in please, over.
I don't want to speak for Nick, but I'd guess that the absence of
highpitched Gloranthan lore may be one reason...
>Who thinks after reading Dorastor that Ralzakark is a part of
>Nysalor/Gbaji/Arkat, and what will happen if all the parts are brought together
>again. Will Arkat/Gbaji/Arkat re-form.
Well, I jumped at the explanation of the "other Ralzakark", see above.
The Dorastan Wolfbear myth seems to point to Harrek rather than
Argrath, but in Cults of Terror Oddi and Paulis ride against Ralzakark
without any mention of the berserk.
An interesting coincidence though is Oddi's involuntary illumination.
Looks like the ancient illuminate vs. illuminate drama repeats.
And there are the five Ralian Arkat's to deal with...
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de