Bell Digest v930910p1

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 10 Sep 1993, part 1
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Sender: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
Precedence: junk

The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.

Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM",
they will automatically be included in a next issue.  Try to change the
Subject: line from the default Re: RuneQuest Daily...  on replying.

Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest.  If you 
want to submit articles to the Digest only,  contact the editor at
RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM.

Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor:

RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld)

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From: henkl@holland.sun.com (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: Re: Lots and Lots of Stuff
Message-ID: <1993Sep9.071033.4042@holland.sun.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1993 07:10:33 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1597

Tom.Zunder@mettav.royle.org (Tom Zunder) writes:

>Moons

>I like the idea that Yelm was White in Gods Time, and was sundered into three
>by Death. The Sun is the Yellow part, also Yelmalio, Annila is the Blue part
>and the Red Moon is the last. Where the Red Moon was hiding we don't know but I
>would guess it was blasted into a chaos hell from where the Red Goddess
>retrieved it. Lunar mythology implies that the Red Goddess existed since Time
>but the Seven Mothers refound her, maybe the Red Moon actually is the Red
>Goddess, the female aspect is an
>accident.

>Thus the return of the White is the rebirth of the full Yelm Emperor.

How I like this!

Makes a lot more sense than that white moon stuff...

-- 
Henk	|	Henk.Langeveld@Sun.COM - Disclaimer: I don't speak for Sun.
oK[]	|	RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM

---------------------

From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Re: Shamans
Message-ID: <9309090712.AA20338@cs.uwa.edu.au>
Date: 9 Sep 93 07:16:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1598

> From: henkl@holland.sun.com (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
> stormbull@cix.compulink.co.uk (Tim Westlake) writes:
> 
> 
> >I have been looking at the rules for Shamans, both in RQII and III and 
> >have a question, Can you have a Shaman who is also a Rune Lord and/or 
> >Priest? The rules do not say either way.
>
I see the real problem as not being to do with deeper incompatibilities
between the different types of magical powers, I see it as more of a problem
of practicalities. There is no reason why shamans cannot become priests, many
shamans are also priests (probably the majority of RQ3 shamans, between Hsunchen
 cults, Waha. ancestor worship, Troll priestesses, elven shamans, and thats not
even counting minor spirit cults) (RQ2 purists consider Black Fang and a few
others). However many cults specifically disallow shamans (perhaps feeling they
are tooinvolved with the spirit world (heresy?) to make good priests), and
probably from Rune Lord status as well. If your cult allows it, there is no
reason not too - but don't expect your shamanto become a Light Son or other
uptight civilised cult Rune level.
> 
> >The real problem is with Rune magic, if shamans cannot attain "Rune" 
> >level then their access to such magic is limited. I can understand that 
> >some cults would have a more shamnic tradition rather than a priestly 
> >one (such as Daka Fal) and that some cults dont even have Priests 
> >(StormBull according to RQIII). Does anyone have any suggestions?

In many cults the two positions of priest  and shaman are compatible or the
same. In others they  are separate, or one or the other does not exist. It is
a purely cult by cult decision. 
	I must point out that this comes from a largely RQ3 perspective, not so
much because I play it exclusively (I do, but I played RQ2 before hand), but 
because I never quite knew what to make of RQ2 shamans. They are mentioned in
only a very few places, and their cult status is not mentioned except  in a  
few places. We do know that in cults that permit it, it is  possible to combine
priest-hood and shamanhood (such as Black Fang).
> 
> >Tim
> 
> Shamans (shamen?) deliberately choose a different path.  Rune magic is 
> not for them, as it is too wrapped up in formalised and pompous ritual.
> It is also too limiting and would impose on their freedom of action.

	Rubbish. Rune magic is one of the most important abilities of most
Gloranthan shamans (as I said above). Big organised cults, that are wrapped
up in pompous formalised ritual,  are anathema to shamans ( and the feeling
is mutual) but a little Rune magic, derived from the traditional ways of  the
people or whatever, is part of the whole shaman thing.
> 
> Shamans are individuals.  They are masters of the spirit world, and 
> won't let themselves be controlled by the gods, which are abberant
> spirits anyway.

They will, however, let themselves be pushed around by the tribal ancestors,
or the spirits of the land or whatever. But that is quite different (they say)
:-)

> There are exceptions of course, like the spirit cults.  Those people
> chosing this route give up some of their freedom in turn for temporary
> benefits, like a Rune spell or two.
	I think of it  more as devoting extra effort to get some extra powers.
I don't think that freedom is really the issue, freedom is a different concept
when you put the welfare of the tribe above your own welfare (as I feel most 
shamans do).
> -- 
> Henk	|	Henk.Langeveld@Sun.COM - Disclaimer: I don't speak for Sun.
> oK[]	|	RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
>
					Dave Cake 
>

Re: a mailing list for just Glorantha stuff

> I already run several mailing lists and have good software support for such
> a beast.
> 
> So, would anyone subscribe to it? :-)

	I might subscribe, but I wouldn't post (except in reply, maybe). I see
very little reason to split the discussion, and I feel that it would not be a
good thing. The big rules discussions only come along every once in a while.
And I don't think that discussion of the rules can be separated from GLorantha
(look at the discussion of shamans above for an example).
							Dave Cake
> -- 
> Clay Luther                              clay@cool.vortech.com
> Software Engineer                        Kodak Health Imaging Systems
> Yelo's gift was a necklace of clam shells from the Quel Stream strung on gut
> string with a delicate knot of reeds which performed the role of pendant.
> 


---------------------

From: henkl@glorantha (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 09 Sep 1993, part 1 [duplicate again]
Message-ID: <9309090725.AA04726@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM>
Date: 9 Sep 93 11:25:35 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1599


It happened again.

I will include some checks.


> From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
> To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
> Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 09 Sep 1993, part 1
> Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
> Sender: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
> Precedence: junk
> 
> X-RQ-ID: 1595
> 

---------------------

From: appel@erzo.berkeley.edu (Shannon Appel)
Subject: Of FAQs and FTP
Message-ID: <9309090741.AA07500@erzo.berkeley.edu>
Date: 8 Sep 93 17:41:47 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1600

>From: DScott@snail.demon.co.uk (David Scott)
...
>Finally, what do readers think about the idea of an FAQ for the digest. I dont
>know how it would work - but perhaps it could be available from soda.berkley by 
>FTP or perhaps if you could send a message to request-Digest with FAQ in the 
>header?. I realize that not everyone has access to USENET or FTP so could it 
>all be done by mail? If I remember correctly you can get files by mail from 
>soda (cant remember how though).

I think that a FAQ is a good idea.  I try and maintain most of the
information that you mention on soda, but having short bits on each of
them in one easy to get place would probably be useful.  You just need
to get someone willing to put it together and maintain it.  Once a FAQ
is complete, it could regularly be posted to rec.games.frp.archives as
well, to provide people who don't read the RQ Digest with all the info
on RuneQuest.

>For instance, a few? digests ago JagWire X 
>asked about other RQ sources - does anyone know of any - even old ones other 
>than soda?

soda is meant to be the main RQ FTP site.  I don't know of any sources
that include anything that it doesn't.  If anyone _is_ aware of
anything, please let me know.  I'd be happy to add the appropriate
files to soda.

Shannon

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From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: ... No one ever dies there ...
Message-ID: 
Date: 9 Sep 93 08:42:46 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1601

Greg Fried here.

Wow.  What a pant-load of Dailies there was today!
Thanks everyone (Charles, David, Rob, Lewis, et al) for your helpful
responses on the Prax tribes.  Yes, I suppose I should have extrapolated a
bit from their designation as NOMADS (!!) -- but just how nomadic and within
what range was my question, for which I have some admirable answers.
After all, Native American plains-dwellers had large tribal regions
which were dominated by one tribe alone.  My sense after reading your
responses is that, at least after the Lunar victory, certain favored
tribes do tend to PREDOMINATE in the better areas, and that others,
like the Bisons, must pound the pavement out in the Wates more'n
they'd like to, but that tribal clans do tend to range all over the
region, interspersing with other tribes.  Lewis, I particularly liked
your thoughts on the Rhino riders.  What are their non-Praxian habits?
---
On Arkat:
OK.  I relent. There should be no way for Arkati to 'detect' a
difference between themselves and other Illuminates.  Otherwise it
spoils all the fun!  Where would Nysalor/Gbaji/Arkat get his jollies
without the constant lurking possibility of soul-wrenching treason?!
---
Tim Westlake:
Sorry to insult you Brits with that "uncharted European market" crack.
All I meant was that (outside from the UK, really), there is indeed a
largely unassaulted market, which AH seems to have no strategy for
conquering.  BUt I think you agree on this point!
---
David Scott:
This may be a cultural thing (other Yanks, back me up), but I do
believe that "Hungry Jack" is a brand name for a brand of American
pancake mix!  A typical Staffordian, multivalent, pop-cult in-joke,
no?  And so maybe it had to change to Hungry Eater because of
copyright issues!  (REALLY?!  Ken -- enquiring minds want to know!)
---
Simon:
I think that the spirit plane is one of the great gaps in the RQ
game-world.  I dislike the RQ3 spirits, because they seem designed to
fit a game-SYSTEM, not a mythological system.  Shamans would be much
more interesting if the spirit plane received some real thought.
Since I have a player who infrequently plays a shaman-ess (?) named
Piggy-O, I have given this some thought, but not enough.  When
traveling discorporate, she can see the spirit-shadows of the real
world, including rock, water, etc.  But how FAR can she travel, and
for how long?  

I do not allow spirits regenerable POW -- they must get
it by worship or shamanic bargaining or by theft from the living.
Shamans can keep only so many bound spirits as they can successfully
bargain with for a POW-deal (I replenish you, you help me with
spells).  Fancy that -- role-playing!  Who'd 'a' thunk it?  No one,
under the current rules, cause all you do is enslave spirits and use
them to powergame under the current game-mechanics.

(Allied spirits might be an exeption to the replenishment rule -- the
deity might do the replenishing here.  But none of my players have
attained rune status, so I haven't tested this.)

I also make spirits more 'materially' interesting when
associated with a shaman or other living being.  If you bind a fish
spirit, you're gonna be fishier: bonuses on swim skills, but maybe a
tad smelly -- I dunno -- the fun is in the doing!  This sort of stuff
really spices up my paleolithic campaign, and makes shamans into the
odd-balls they should be.  For example, an NPC tribal shaman in my
campaign has bound a sea-gull spirit; he is incredibly good with Fast
Talk, but he is obnoxiously garrulous, and a gaggle of gulls follows
him everywhere.  Piggy-O has bound a boar spirit: she is TOUGH, but
damn pig-headed. How's this help?  

Oh, and did I mention?  I HATE (well, snore at) the present spirit
combat system!  Shouldn't spirit combat involve as many interesting
options as real combat?!  This smacks of the
we-never-really-thought-it-through
syndrome.  As it stands, all we have is the POW RES table.  Yawn.  I
have made some changes, like, a discorporate shaman can cast a spell
at victim he has engaged in spirit combat at a considerable advantage
in a round that he has won the spirit combat role (mind-affecting
spells only... maybe...).  Also, in spirit combat, I use the RQ2 rules
for POW damage: 1-10 = 3 POW taken, 11- 40 = 2, and 41- 00 = 1, BUT,
the attacker SUBR

---------------------

From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Brief notes
Message-ID: <930909085028_100270.337_BHB38-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 9 Sep 93 08:50:29 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1602

__________
Thom said:

> For a truly non-ancestor cult try Humakt (he does after all represent
> the severance of family ties ...)

I also think of Humakt as the god of divorce and suicide.

> Speaking of Dragon Pass, does anyone play it regularly?

I used to. I would again, given a worthy opponent. Chris Gidlow was too 
easy to beat, by the end, though he did a great Harrek bear-roar. I still 
remember his war-cry: "Who's for a gang-bang with a Lunar Saint?" That was 
the game when I diverted Jar-eel and the Moon Sword Cult to slice up poor 
Tosti Runefriend ("He's got a big fetish"), the well-known Viz character. 
When I was playing Argrath, we managed to unfold the Cloak of Darkness atop 
the Temple of the Reaching Moon on the Full Moon Day -- the most impressive 
Lunar power-cut I can imagine!

I know David Hall's never played the game -- must challenge him some time. 
He can even have the Lunars!

We didn't take quite so long as you to play, but that was after gaining a 
lot of familiarity with the rules.

Now, Nomad Gods I've only played once, and would *love* to play again...

___________
Simon says:

> ... this presents a far more interesting landsacpe than the dreamy grey
> blur that the Gloranthan spirit world is portrayed as.

Yup. The 'official' RuneQuest Spirit Plane is just plain DULL. And shamans 
aren't able to do many of the real-world shamanic things ("because they're 
HeroQuests"?). These ideas look like improvements to me.

____________________
*Another* RQ list???

>> is Clay Luther
> is Steven E Barnes

>>I've been thinking about creating a mailing list dedicated *SOLELY* to
>>Gloranthan lore; rules questions and complaints about the magic systems
>>would be taboo.  It would be more like a place where people would be 
>>encouraged to spout God-Learner philosophy and to publish Gloranthan
>>short stories and remark endless on the connection between Nysalor/
>>Gbaji/Arkat/Ralzakark.

>Please don't bother.  Are rules discussions that much of a
>problem for you?

>>So, would anyone subscribe to it? :-)

> Yes, because I wouldn't want to be left out of the Glorantha
> discussions.  But I would prefer just one list, thank you.

Seconded: I'd subscribe, but I wouldn't write for it. This list is good 
enough for me.

> And there are Glorantha fans that aren't too keen on RQ anymore...

Seconded.

____________________
Steve Thomas writes:
(Eventually...)
(Haven't got the hang of that mail software yet, have you, Steve?)

>  Not that there's anything wrong with powergaming per se

Are you sure you're not confusing power games with dominance games? ;-)

Anyway, you're in trouble when I catch up with you, even if you are a Sword 
of Indrodar while I'm just a humble cow-man (OK, the Sacred Milkman of the 
Greydogs, but you know what I mean). No pints of Gold Top for you...

====
Nick
====





---------------------

From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: more on spiritland
Message-ID: 
Date: 9 Sep 93 09:01:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1603

GF here, again, after cutting myself off again!

As I was saying, I use that system for damage, except that the winner
SUBTRACTS the ammount he won the POW RES by from the d100 damage roll.  If
this goes below 01, he rolls d100 again for additional damage, subtracting
however much he went below 01 on the first roll, etc, until a roll above 01
is made.  This makes spirit combat faster, at least.

One question to ask is, where does the POW 'go' that gets knocked off
your spirit in spirit combat?  I suppose it just dissipates into the
spirit plane.  But could a shaman 'collect' it before it melts away,
using it to cast a spell on victim in spirit combat, or to replenish a
bound spirit?  THis is what I mean by what would make such combat more
interesting.
---
Nick:
Fair enough.  A Wheel's worth of brew (not broos!) coming atcha at RQCon --
if I make it.  What are the current exchange rates? I am just a lowly
grad student, after all.
And, since you ask so politely, I'll work on my heretical Blue Moon write up,
and post it -- to be credited against your wheel.
---
Hey,
Is the Pharoh a God-Learner on the lam?  He just crawled out of the sea. 
Where from, do you suppose?  And who but a G-L would devise such a ritual as
in Masters of Luck and Death to keep himself immortal?  I tell you, inquiring
minds want to know!!!  And why did he disappear? Have I not read enough? 

GF out.

---------------------

From: STEVEG@ARC.UG.EDS.COM (Steve Gilham Entropy requires no maintenance)
Subject: Re: Some Glorantha questions:
Message-ID: <01H2QEPBNDS2000MG4@UG.EDS.COM>
Date: 8 Sep 93 22:30:12 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1604

C442196@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu (Newton Hughes) asked (X-RQ-ID: 
1593)

>1.  The subject of Vinga brings to mind Babeestor Gor and 
>   Gorgorma - What is the defining difference between those 2 
>   anyway?  (The cult write-up of Babeestor Gor at the soda site
>   seemed to endow her with attributes more appropriate to
>   Gorgorma.)

Babeester Gor is the shadow of Voria, whereas Gorgorma is the 
shadow of Dendara.  Certainly the net.writeup of Bab's cult does 
tend far more towards the castrator-for-its-own-sake (and other 
peculiarities) than I find reasonable

>    My own uninformed opinion had been that there is no search-
>    light effect, the moon appears the same to everyone outside
>    the Glowline at the same time.  I thought of the Moon as
>    a piece of Godtime that is not bound by physical laws
>    about rotation, if that makes any sense.

This sounds better to me; especially tied with the magical 
boundary between visibility/always-full or not, which is bound by 
no reasonable optical laws