From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 10 Sep 1993, part 2
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Sender: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
Precedence: junk
The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
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---------------------
From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
Subject: Re: RQlite - NOT!
Message-ID: <9309091336.AA04972@condor>
Date: 9 Sep 93 13:36:34 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1605
Well, as I should have expected, I got a mixed (and generally negative)
response to this one...
(I guess you really can't please all of the people all of the time:)
BTW I should start by explaining that I was pursuing the alternate-marketing-
strategy-to-attract-newbies-to-RQ idea. My idea was to strip a lot of the
Gloranthan background out of scenarios and put it in a separate source-book.
This seems abhorrent to some RQ players.
To reiterate:
>CW>In my experience it is not the "complex" rules that put newbies off RQ -
>CW>it's
>CW>the fact that many scenarios include oblique references to people, places &
>CW>events which have little or no bearing on the plot.
>
--Steve Barnes responded--
SB>It's these details that are the reason I buy RQ products. If I
SB>were running RQ, I could come up with my own plots.
But you're not a newbie RQ player. I say newbies need plots to get them
playing.
>CW>Why not separate the background from the plot?:
>CW>Produce comprehensive tomes of Gloranthan lore for campaign background;
>CW>and generic scenarios that are not set in specific locales.
>
SB>Because then AH loses their core Glorantha audience that keeps
SB>RQ viable... (IMHO)
Maybe not. I see it working like this:
Non-RQ-playing Gloranthaphiles would buy the Gloranthan sourcebook(s) only.
Gloranthan-RQ players would buy sourcebooks+scenarios.
Newbies would buy scenarios (...get hooked, and buy the sourcebook later).
Non-GL RQ players would buy scenarios and convert them to their own campaign
(...or maybe they see the light and end up buying the Gloranthan
sourcebook too:).
---Nick Brooke responded---
NB>Hate the idea, Colin.
NB>
NB>Your call for interesting but generic but non-generic NPCs tied my brain
NB>into a knot. If people don't understand Storm Bulls (the reason for
NB>non-specific generic scenarios), why will they like atypical, zany Storm
NB>Bulls any better? (cf. my Equal Opportunity whinge a few days ago).
My point about NPCs is that many people seem blinkered to the following view:
Interesting NPC == NPC with lots of quirky *cult-based* traits and motivations
(and nothing else)
IMO NPCs should also have *human(/troll/dwarf etc)-traits* as well as
religious(spiritual)-traits. I mean motivations like politics, love, family
vendettas etc. Not necessarily based on cult-ties at all (and possibly in
conflict with their religion). Such mundane motivations are easier for newbies
to relate to and don't require in-depth knowledge of cult lore.
scenario #1: (human-motivation)
GM (to newbie): You don't like him 'cos his father killed your brother.
scenario #2: (spiritual motivation)
GM (to newbie): You don't like him 'cos his god is associated with a god who
stole something from your god before the beginning of Time...
See the point?
Newbies can run their characters (PC & NPC) based on human motivations to
start with - everyone understands these motivations. Once they become familiar
with the way cults work they can concentrate on spiritual motivations more.
--Mystic Musk Ox responded--
>CW>Why not separate the background from the plot?:
MMO>Excellent idea.
Thanks. Glad someone agrees.
MMO>Although I like Glorantha and it cultures, background etc,
MMO>I invariably get pissed off with the obscure never-explained references,
MMO>and facts that are needed to run it.
[...]
MMO>Perhaps I'm missing something here?
Nope, you hit the nail on the head.
---Greg Fried responded---
GF>I agree with you criteria for readily playable scenarios, but I think that
GF>instead of placing them in generic towns, etc, they could be given a definite
GF>(pr semi-definite) location in GLorantha, but with specific recommendation on
GF>how the location could be tranlated elsewhere.
Ok, Greg, fair point. But I still think that some scenarios are more specific
about setting than they have to be.
---Rob Mace responded--
>CW> Why not separate the background from the plot?:
>CW> Does this seem sensible to people?
>
RM>Not to me. To me this sounds like you would end up with flavorless
RM>scenarios.
So the scenarios are vanilla. So? The GM adds his own flavouring. As much or
as little as he and his players like. That's what the saucebooks are for :-)
RM>I'm sure there are some types of scenarios that would
RM>work fine done this way, but other types depend too much on background
RM>to be left with any flavor. Other types like the Cradle scenario
RM>from Pavis could not be done with out the heavy background.
Aside:
I didn't really like the Cradle scenario (from the Pavis pack). It's too linear.
A sequence of (gross) set encounters with little plot. And the ending goes way
over the top. Wyvern-riding priests; I ask you! This kind of thing gives
Glorantha a bad name. (IMHO)
Anyway, if a Gloranthan Sourcebook gave a few things like: a map of the river;
a deckplan of a sample cradle; sample troops from various areas; details of
cults & factions in various areas - then GM could re-create the Cradle
"scenario" himself with very little imagination. And with a little more
imagination he could use the same background info to come up with a much more
interesting scenario;->
_____
I'll stop ranting now.
CW.
---------------------
From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
Subject: MANY COLOURED MOON
Message-ID: <9309091403.AA01350@Sun.COM>
Date: 9 Sep 93 14:07:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1606
Ref: X-RQ-ID: 1595 (Tom Zunder) and other discussions on the colour of the moon
If the white moon was split into coloured parts, one of whom was Yelm (Yellow).
If Yelm is yellow
Then the "Red Moon" must be magenta
And the "Blue Moon" must be cyan
For the sum of the parts to be white.
Notes:
Cyan is the colour of the sky (reference anotehr idea about the
Blue Moon.
The exact shade of the Red Goddess is a bit vague.
We have the Crimson Bat, Carmine(ia), but wouldn't a Goddess of the
middle air have a bit of blue from the sky in her colouration.
Listen on this line for further heresies.
-----
Lewis
-----
---------------------
From: yfcw29@castle.edinburgh.ac.uk
Subject: RuneQuest Sight, Illumination, etc.
Message-ID: <9309091552.aa17008@uk.ac.ed.castle>
Date: 9 Sep 93 14:51:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1607
RuneQuest Sight and Illumination.
Does anyone know what the godlearner's attitude to illumination was, or for that
matter the illuminates view of godlearner activities and runequest sight? Are
there any known cases of illuminated godlearners? For that matter, what was the
godlearner attitude towards chaos? Both illumination and runequest sight
fundamentaly change the world view of their initiates, so they may have some
characteristics in common. Perhaps Ralzakark knows, a lunar manuscript in
Dorastor describes an encounter with a Ralian arachne Solara cultist; he claims
that Ralzakark has two captive godlearners! Perhaps this was an unfortunate
missunderstanding, but what if it is true?
I think this line of thought is running away from me, but here goes :
* The only other truly alien worldview in Glorantha is that of the dragonewts,
what is their attitude to chaos, illumination and the godlearners?
* I remember a roumour that Delecti (a surviving EWF refugee) may not realy be a
vampire at all. If so, is he even chaotic? OK, so the upland marsh is full of
undead, but troll use undead too so that does not imply chaos.
* Troll Gods implies that the sorcery using trolls are actualy Arkat followers!
Are they realy Arkat cultists? Are many of them illuminated? Arkat comes from
Ralios, a well known nest of stygian heresies. (Presumably the 'stygian' title
is an echo of the Dark Empire period?).
What we need to do is capture an illuminate, a godlearner and a dragonewt, dope
them up on sodium pentathol and tie them up in a room with a tape recorder. Hey,
you could try this during Home Of The Bold at RQCon! I know there is a dragonewt
in boldhome and there must be an illuminate among the lunars. I suppose Greg
could fill in for the godlearner?
---------------------
From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham , via RadioMail)
Subject: Re: Entropy Nomads; Vinga; Malign Earthies
Message-ID: <199309091542.AA24611@radiomail.net>
Date: 9 Sep 93 15:42:11 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1608
>From: Tom.Zunder@mettav.royle.org (Tom Zunder)
>Moons
>Thus the return of the White is the rebirth of the full Yelm Emperor.
I suspect you can never go back. Even the Lightbringer's Quest didn't
restore things to the way they were beforehand. Yelm can never become what
he once was.
>I think AH should write some more 48 page scenario packs for good roleplaying,
>hack and slay and pick up and plug and play..
I agree, except _we_ should be doing the writing, and let AH stick to
publishing.
>From: 76360.1173@CompuServe.COM (Charlie Domino 76360,1173)
>Subject: Praxian Nomads
>a later repeat
>of the article in HEROES seems to indicate that the Agamori are more
>sedentary and remain in a single area, and I *think* the Borderlands pack
>suggested that the Morokanth there were but a single community of the whole.
>I would expect them to be much more settled, and perhaps dabble in
>agriculture, as they are ill-suited to nomadic travels (they ride in
>panaquins instead of on animal back--takes more herd men?).
Um, all one needs to be nomadic are legs, of which the Morokanth have 4.
They can use their herds as beasts of burden, same as the other tribes.
(Palanquin riding is a luxury.)
Agriculture makes no sense if you're nomadic, because you're not there to
harvest. Besides the fact that Prax isn't well enough watered to support
it. (Speculation: Sun County does as well as it does because the Sun Dome
can exercise enough rigid control to make sure the common irrigation
ditches are maintained.)
Likewise, the Agimori can follow the game, on foot.
>2. Does the entire tribe travel together at all times, or do the clans
>spread out over wide areas, interspersed with each other?
In many ways, the tribe is a fiction. Check the Player's Book: Genertela
[12]: "Tribes have no formal overstructure and have never been gathered in
their entirety."
>Supposedly, the nomadic tribes do NOT eat their own beast, they
>raise the herds for riding animals, milk, etc
This is what nomads do on our planet. If you eat your herds on a regular
basis, you have nothing to fall back on in hard times (and probably every
third year is hard times in Prax). Further, the only real sign of wealth to
a nomad is the animal. It would be kind of like building a house, but then
burning pieces of it to stay warm in the winter. "Raiding by other tribes
is a constant threat ... herd animals are the real prize." If you have
enough animals, you can indeed survive on them without killing -- there's
an African tribe that drinks the blood of their animals, and eats only
vegetables (Karimojong? Maasai? I can't remember which).
>From: T.S.Baguley@open.ac.uk (Thom Baguley)
>>Vinga is an avenger? Not in [KoS.212], where "Inganna dyes her hair red and
>>goes on Venderi adventure." And [253] says "Vinga the Adventuress."
>
>That was how I interpreted KoS. The kind of women who joined the Starbrow
>rebellion ...
But a Venderi adventure must mean something in the Grazelands -- that's
where the Venderi (vendref) live. Anyway, this even took place in 1614, a
year after Starbrow's Rebellion.
>>you've given up many of your responsibilities (and no doubt rights
>>-- I wouldn't be surprised if a Vingan can't marry) as a woman in Orlanthi
>>society in exchange for freedom
>
>I doubt that. It doesn't fit with (my view of) Orlanthi culture. On the other
>hand I doubt many Vingans would want to marry (yet) or would be thought of as
>suitable marriage material (except by other oddballs).
This was rampant speculation on my part -- but do note that Inganna waited
until her (adopted?) nephew was an adult before dying her hair. Chances
are, she was at least in her 30s.
>From: DScott@snail.demon.co.uk (David Scott)
>not everyone has access to USENET or FTP
Right -- mine is email only (thanks, Henk, for using a mailing list approach).
>From: C442196@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu (Newton Hughes)
>1. The subject of Vinga brings to mind Babeestor Gor and Gorgorma -
> What is the defining difference between those 2 anyway? (The
> cult write-up of Babeestor Gor at the soda site seemed to
> endow her with attributes more appropriate to Gorgorma.)
Was that a Steve Maurer writeup? I remember seeing one that didn't have
much resemblence to the Gods of Glorantha summary.
Babeester Gor: Avenging Goddess and Guardian. So she guards earth temples,
and hunts down people who get past her guard. Her runes make her the
opposite of Voria.
Gorgorma: Keeper of Secrets and Defender. "When helpless peasants are too
mightly opressed, they may abandon kinlier goddesses to rise in bloody
rebellion and worship the deadly Gorgorma." Sounds more like a defender of
the people than of the temple. Her runes make her the opposite of Dendara.
She's probably thus the Solar equivalent of Maran Gor.
Babeester Gor to me is more a cult for grim warrior women, part of the
Earth temple complex. Gorgorma is a cult of desperation, who offers rune
spells to fight the nobility. Babeester Gor has little place in society,
Gorgorma has a place only occasionally.
> The comments in the Dorastor entry on the Telmori are rather
> odd, especially where it says that "only within the Lunar
> Empire does the Full Moon fall on Wildday." The description
> there conflicts with the way the Wolfrunners are depicted in
> the Dragon Pass game, where their power waxes and wanes
> gradually with the Red Moon, except within the Glowline,
> when they are always at full strength.
Not necessarily a conflict, Dorastor isn't within the Glowline.
---------------------
From: clay@cool.vortech.com (Clay Luther)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 09 Sep 1993, part 1
Message-ID: <199309091603.AA23574@cool.vortech.com>
Date: 9 Sep 93 06:03:40 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1609
Steve humorously comments on other peoples' comments about Issaries being a
God-Learner construct...
> Issaries
> ======
> Oh, and of course the Issaries cult is a god-learner construct. They swap
> spells and magic items around as if they were candy. They continually try
> and spread their wretched esperanto around the world, but do they ever tell
> you that it was the official Newspeak of the god-learners? They con you out
> of house and home with their so-called "bargain's" and they're almost
> always foreigners. Pah. Tar and feather the lot of them.
> And while we're on the subject...
>
> Someone said : The secret of the god-learners was that they must have
> played D&D
> ====================================================================
> Love it!
>
> Steve.
Regarding the whole Issaries-is-a-GLC argument...
Hmmm....I think this is too easy an interpretation. Although we know that
Issaries was the God-Learners' favorite cult (for obvious reasons) and I
might stoop to saying that Tradetalk is a GL construct (but I doubt it,
Issaries would likely develop a lingua franca despite the GLs...but the
GLs would certainly use it, of course), we also know that Issaries temples
existed long before the advent of the GLs, in Dorastor for example.
Furthermore, Issaries is firmly entrenched in the Lightbringers Quest and
mentioned in or hinted at in several other myths (the gazellete myth, for
example). While I don't doubt the GLs ability to subtley alter myths and
gods, which they certainly did, I don't think they had the far reaching to
so solidly emplace their own constructs, undetectably, in the myths. If I
thought Issaries was a GL construct, I would look for tell-tale signs, such
as a difference in the Lightbringer's myth from place to place. However,
Issaries is firmly sconced in the LBQ, while others, like Vinga, vary.
But was Issaries affected by the Jrusteli? Certainly. I am quite certain the
GLs latched onto and infiltrated the Issaries cult. This no doubt changed
the god, but not to great extents. Perhaps tradetalk *was* invented during
this period, or perhaps it was, like the rest of the cult, modified to suit
Jrusteli values.
However, with the fall of the GLs, I think Issaries, without the external
pressure of the Jrusteli to reform the cult, would return itself to its
original (GodTime) principles IF most of the Jrusteli modified myth is
forgotten after that time.
--
Clay Luther clay@cool.vortech.com
Software Engineer Kodak Health Imaging Systems
Yelo's gift was a necklace of clam shells from the Quel Stream strung on gut
string with a delicate knot of reeds which performed the role of pendant.
---------------------
From: henkl@holland.sun.com (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Sight, Illumination, etc.
Message-ID: <1993Sep9.163714.25362@holland.sun.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1993 16:37:14 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1610
yfcw29@castle.edinburgh.ac.uk writes:
>RuneQuest Sight and Illumination.
>Does anyone know what the godlearner's attitude to illumination was, or for that
>matter the illuminates view of godlearner activities and runequest sight? Are
>there any known cases of illuminated godlearners? For that matter, what was the
>godlearner attitude towards chaos? Both illumination and runequest sight
>fundamentaly change the world view of their initiates, so they may have some
>characteristics in common. Perhaps Ralzakark knows, a lunar manuscript in
>Dorastor describes an encounter with a Ralian arachne Solara cultist; he claims
>that Ralzakark has two captive godlearners! Perhaps this was an unfortunate
>missunderstanding, but what if it is true?
Well, IMO, to be able to do what the Godlearners did, Illumination would
be a requirement. I suggested to Jeff Okamoto that their secret would
involve a garantueed method of instant illumination. He thought it was
interesting...
--
Henk | Henk.Langeveld@Sun.COM - Disclaimer: I don't speak for Sun.
oK[] | RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
---------------------
From: brandon@caldonia.nlm.nih.gov (Brandon Brylawski)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 07 Sep 1993, part 2
Message-ID: <9309091651.AA01844@caldonia.nlm.nih.gov>
Date: 9 Sep 93 16:51:22 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1611
>>In my campaign, the Yelm culture is the Grazers, who do have shamans (as do
>>the Pentan nomads). And you'll note that the Lunar Empire took over the
>>Yelmic cultures, so they _didn't_ win.
>Arguable. They tolerate the Red Moon for now, and even propagate it, to
>spread their influence, when I look at Fazzur's successor Tatius the
>Bright. By doing so, the civilized Dara Happans use the semi-civilized,
>semi-barbarian Lunar Satrapies to pay it back to the barbarian
>Orlanthi. And then I heard somewhere that Illumination (the underlying
>base for Lunar insights) originally is a solar concept...
>Concerning the horse nomads:
>I always thought that the differences in lifestyle between them and the
>Praxians were only superficial - Eiritha's beasts being of the Earth,
>and horses being of the Sky. Yelm's role is pretty much that of Waha -
>the chieftain who teaches the skills appropriate to the nomadic
>lifestyle. I don't know whether "Awaken Horse" would be available
>instead of the sedentary "Awaken Hawk" spell, but it seems appropriate.
>Foundchild would translate as Golden Bow, Eiritha as either Hippoi or
>Dendara (in her different aspects), and there is no real equivalent for
>Storm Bull - at best one of Yelmalio's brothers, or Cold Shiny himself.
>Brutality in Solar cultures is of the cold minded, subtle variety,
>including delicate torture and burning.
The differences may be superficial to an outsider, but not to the Praxians nor
the Grazers. As you may recall, horses are not considered proper Beasts, and
the Grazers, being horse folk, were kicked off the Prax some time ago, migrating
to the Grazelands and making their pact with Ironhoof and the denizens of Beast
Valley. In Phil Davis's campaign, the only way that you could bring a horse
safely onto the Prax was with its hooves wrapped in cloth, so that it would not
actually touch the plains. To do otherwise was to invite attack.
Where I come from, the premier gods of the Grazers are Yelm, Golden Bow his son,
and Hyalor Horsebreaker. Most do not consider Yelmalio to be any relative of
Yelm, certainly not his son! I did not meet any Grazer Yelmalio worshippers
at all, nor any Storm Bulls. The Grazer cults all have Command Horse as
spirit and divine magic and do indeed awaken horses as allied spirits,
although some prefer to place allied spirits in weapons, usually bows.
The Grazers at the time I lived there were in an uneasy truce with the Lunars.
This was assisted in part by the magical protections around the Grazelands.
enemies entering the area tend to have bad luck : bowstrings break, horses
stumble, and such. The Grazers are under no illusions that these protections
are strong enough to keep out the Lunar Army if the latter were to make a
serious effort at conquest, so they must give the Empire lip service. Some
within the Grazelands desired trade with the Lunars, some desired isolation,
and some were waiting for the right time to attack the Empire. Needless to
say, this would only be possible when the Red Goddess met a foe that she could
not crush with impunity. Argrath, where are you....
Brandon