From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 14 Sep 1993, part 3
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Sender: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
Precedence: junk
The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.
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Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor:
RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld)
---------------------
From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Re: Arkat and the GLs
Message-ID: <9309130513.AA01108@cs.uwa.edu.au>
Date: 13 Sep 93 06:55:29 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1651
>
> Illuminates do what GLs do, but without the rationalist
> myth-technology they have. Instead of manipulating myths on the hero
> and god plane, they join cults, gather powers, and move on. (But: Arkat?)
My personal comception of the difference between Arkat and Gbaji and
the GLs is that the powers given by all are very similar, they differ mainly
in moral attitude. The important thing about Illumination is that it frees you
from the morality imposed by others - you realise that the morality of law and
chaos is just something that you have been taught by your cult, not a true
reflection of the situation, and similar insights apply to other cult
prohibitions, hence the immunity to spirits of retribution and ignoring geases,
etc. I feel that the effect of Illumination (full illumination, know that
Dorastor tells us that not all Illuminates have all abilities) is to make
yu realise that the morality taught to you by your cult and society is just
a social/magical construct that only has meaning because you let it.
I feel that the Dark and Light sides of Illumination are truely just
different attitudes to this moral freedom - and generally oversimplification.
The Dark side - Gbaji - is to take the freedom to choose your morality as the
freedom to ignore or do without. Some people take illumination as freedom and
power to do what the hell they want.
The light side of Arkat/Nysalor is to realise that with freedom and
power comes responsibility. I think of the original Nysalor cultists as
naive, with very liberal attitudes to chaos and cult associations, and perhaps
some of the Lunar Empire is like this - particulary the civilised inhabitants
of the heartlands - that have never actually seen evil chaos in action. They
would disapprove of anti-chaos fanatics as we disapprove of religious
fanatics.
The Illuminated Arkati I think of as being much less naive. They are
not exactly fanatic in the sense of unthinking rejection, but they are
ruthless in the extreme. I think that the true teaching of Arkat is similar to
philosophers like Nietsche - I think that the message of Arkat is that the
Illuminate has trancended the restrictions of society and cult and can see more
clearly what must be done, and has the responsibility to do what must be done,
particularly when others will not do it. Arkati consider themselves the ultimate
moral arbiter, and believe that they have a responsibility to do the things
that others are too weak or too restricted by cult to do. The classic example
is Arkat joining ZZ - he saw that the codes of honour and the respect for the
innocent of the Humakti and other Orlanthi pantheon types was crippling them,
and that the cult of Nysalor would survive, so he did the unthinkable and
joined ZZ. Arkati are seen by others as fanatics, but they see themselves not
as religious fanatics, but as ruthless, ends-justifies-the-means types. I also
think that Arkati walk a very narrow line between the dark and the light, and
that it is easy for them to fall into the Gbaji trap.
I think that Arkati are quite capable of using the tools of chaos to
destroy it - but I could be quite wrong. Perhaps they are truly moral examplars,
who strive to display honour at all times to show that they are not trapped by
the dark side. Or more likely, Arkat is such a controversial and important
fidure that there are probably many different ways of interpreting his
teachings, and they probably vary as much as sects of Islam or Christianity do
today. But I like the idea of Arkati terrorists, destroying those that they
see as a threat by any means necessary.
Actually, what I really like about Illumination is the moral ambiguity
that it introduces. I would love to see this really appear in a game.
I would also like to mention that I think that Arkat and the
God-Learners had very similar insights (though the majority of Arkat
worshippers would be unaware of this). Arkat was the discoverer of the type
of HeroQuest that changes mythology and forges new paths, rather than re-enacts
it (not the first one to do this, but the first one to study it systematically).
This is the same ability that enabled the GLs to perform most of their
mythical alterations, and they probably learned most of it from the Arkat
cult when they conquered the Dark Empire. The difference between the GLs and
Arkat is merely one of hubris, when Nysalor was killed, Arkat wanted to be
a normal person once more, but the GLs had an urge to change and conquer and
bend the world to their will.
Sorry for the lenght, but this sort of ambiguity and moral complexity
is, for me, the way by which Glorantha transcends the Tolkeinesque quest
fantasy upon which so much FRPing is based.
Cheers
Dave Cake
---------------------
From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham , via RadioMail)
Subject: New RQ GM
Message-ID: <199309130658.AA25482@radiomail.net>
Date: 13 Sep 93 06:57:26 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1652
>To: cookec@max (Kiliki)
Thank you for posting your "newbie" experiences -- please continue to. Us
old pros are arguing about what's the best thing for new players, but it
was so long ago for most of us that your perspective is a lot more valuable
than ours.
Most RuneQuest games I know have a somewhat lower-key feel than D&D games,
partly because Glorantha is (mostly) bronze-age, rather than
quasi-medieval, because the rules don't have Really Powerful Magic, and
because there's the idea that the rest of the world is out there and
matters, too (it doesn't revolve around the player characters and their
special class of adventurer).
---------------------
From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Re: Delecti
Message-ID: <9309130716.AA06393@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM>
Date: 13 Sep 93 07:16:26 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1653
> * I remember a roumour that Delecti (a surviving EWF refugee) may not realy be a
> vampire at all. If so, is he even chaotic? OK, so the upland marsh is full of
> undead, but troll use undead too so that does not imply chaos.
>
Delecti is certainly not a conventional vampire - rather than keeping
his physical body alive, he inhabits bodies of the newly dead. Perhaps Delecti
is actually more like a ghoul? But he is a Vivamort cult hero, however, so
don't read too much into him not being a vampire - I think that he is more than
a vampire, but shares many of their motivations. He has not just zombies and
skeletons and ghosts (like trolls) but vampires as well (for example, see
The attack on the Tower of the Dead in TOTRM#5) among his followers. He also
has acess to EWF knowledge, which may give him magics others are quite unaware
of.
BTW - does anybody know what his vampires feed on? Are their many
captives in the marsh (serious adventurer motivation), or do they eat
non-sentients, or summoned spirits (grumpy vampires), or perhaps Delecti has
special magics to keep them alive somehow. Perhaps they raid the ducks a lot
(no wonder ducks join Humakt)?
Cheers
' Dave Cake
---------------------
From: Tom.Zunder@mettav.royle.org (Tom Zunder)
Subject: THZ Ruminates 12/9/93
Message-ID:
Date: 12 Sep 93 10:26:34 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1654
Yelm as a Moon
--------------
No desire to tread on Nick's toes, that thread was started by him.
I thought I implied that by saying "I like the idea ", I suppose
I should have said, "as previously stated".
This is a nice cosmological rumour and one that can ignore the
colours in white since Glorantha can have different rules. Thus
a Red/Blue/Yellow construct could be right just as a Green Moon
might be right. I would suggest we let Lhankor Mhy sages and
heretical Solar and Lunar cults argue this one all over our
Glorantha.
Tradetalk
---------
I don't understand why people hate Tradetalk. Earth has many such
lingua franca. The most obvious being Swahili and Bantu in Africa.
Arabic, Latin, Greek, English, French and many other languages have
carried out similar roles. Just what is wrong with it? (Apart from every sod
you meet talking it, of course!)
Flat Glorantha
--------------
Ironically I made this same faux pas myself last RQ game. We have a
running (standing) joke about the "Griffin Mountain can be seen for
XX kilometres" in our game, and I posed that on a flat world the bloody
thing could be seen forever on a plain. I was of course docked 5%
Glorantha Lore since the world is indeed a curved lozenge..
Praxian Tribes
--------------
I believe Praxian tribes to have areas of concentration, but the more
nomadic will drift as power balances change, hence the Sable Riders
dominate Inner Prax right now (1621). Some, such as the Basmoli, aren't
nomadic at all just have an area they roam in.
Spirits
-------
A priest could ask for Divine Intervention, or more likely would
ask a fellow priest (or one would do it anyway once the possession
was discovered) to ask/command a cult spirit to drive out the
intruding spirit.
Spirit Combat
-------------
I too prefer the RQ4 spirit combat rules, they should be in the
RQ Companion II, along with the character gen. The rest, ho hum..
Glorantha is patriarchal
````````````````````````
I know GS will hate this but isn't Gloranthan cosmology patrarchal?
Male gods dominate Time and pre-Time, male concepts such as Death
dominate the whole essence. Only Death has really changed the world
and largely through the interaction of male deities. Most females
are mothers and carers and devalued as such.
This could change, of course, and I suspect your average peasant
would view life differently but I just felt it needed to be said that
as Earthmen, we see Glorantha thru a male viewpoint.
Orlanth Rex! tzunder@mettav.royle.org
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------
From: steve@psycho.demon.co.uk (Steve Thomas)
Subject: Ikadz and Humakt
Message-ID: <11@psycho.demon.co.uk>
Date: 13 Sep 93 10:46:53 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1655
TO: RQDIGEST, INTERNET:RUNEQUEST@GLORANTHA.HOLLAND.SUN.COM
Re: Issaries and Ikadz
Hi all, Steve Thomas here
Nick Brooke and David Scott ask about why Humakt Hates Ikadz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well ... this all comes from my version of the True Sword Heroquest
in which Humakt descends into Hell to retrieve the Sword of Death
which he has unaccountably thrown away or lost (this happens a lot
to Humakt).
We know that Ikadz is the god who purifies people through torture
before they enter Hell. We also know that Humakt a) entered Hell,
and b) is one of the 'purest' gods we know, at leat in the sense of
being singleminded. I believe that they met, and it went something
like this:
Humakt, weaponless and alone, lost in the primal darkness, hears the
sound of metal clinking, and sees the warm glow of a fire in the
distance. He goes towards it, and rather than finding the friendly
forge of the bonesmith, finds himself in Ikadz' chamber, a vast plain
upon which all manner of creatures are being tormented by fat
demons, by fire, by rack, crushing, by rending. They seize Humakt,
and drag him before their master. Humakt cannot fight them, for he
has no sword, and no power of death-dealing.
Ikadz chains him to a rack of white hot metal, and explains in a
kindly sort of way to Humakt that none may enter Hell while they
are impure. Humakt must submit, or suffer there for all eternity.
Humakt grits his teeth and tells Ikadz to begin. Ikadz laughes
with glee and pulls out the piliwinks...
Humakt is brave, though, and only screams out twice, once when
his liver is torn from him( the seat of his courage), and once when
his heart is ripped out (his humanity). At the end, he stands up,
free of the rack, purified in body and soul, with his entrails in
an iron bucket, where Ikadz had thrown them. He picks up all
his organs and replaces back them in his body, all except his
heart, which he had no further need of.
Humakt continued his Quest, but he never forgot Ikadz, who had
taken away his humanity.
Nick Says:
---------------
>Are you sure you're not confusing power games with dominance games? ;-)
See above for a healthy spot of B&D.
Clay Luther says: (and Greg Fried seems to agree)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>However, with the fall of the GLs, I think Issaries, without the external
>pressure of the Jrusteli to reform the cult, would return itself to its
>original (GodTime) principles IF most of the Jrusteli modified myth is
>forgotten after that time.
Aah, but the God-Learners CHANGED the original (GodTime) principles.
The only way to find out what the 'pre-change' principles were was to talk
to someone like Ralzakark or that old fool in Tink who were there in the
first age.
David Dunham says of Tosti Runespoon
---------------------------------------------------------
>Well-known? (I did add all the Dragon Pass people to my Big List of
>Personalities, but I don't know anything about most of 'em.)
Come come, surely everyone knows about Tosti Runefriend, the most
ludicrous man in Dragon Pass. Simply look at his counter: the capering
gait, the enormous bulging fetish, and the smug grin of a man who
has just been made governor-general of Dragon Pass (this happened in
our last game, after which the Lunars retired back to Glamour in disgust).
Tosti goes round to his friend's house:
Tosti: "Hello Mr Death, good to see you."
THE END
Columbus Mercator et al. talking about the lozenge.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I loved this. It was one of the funniest things I've read on the Digest
for ages. More Grey Sage bickering please!
Steve.
---------------------
From: STEVEG@ARC.UG.EDS.COM (Steve Gilham Entropy requires no maintenance)
Subject: Re: Eclipses
Message-ID: <01H2VVSSLEWI0013LE@UG.EDS.COM>
Date: 12 Sep 93 20:34:07 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1656
Columbus Mercator asserts:-
> Such a shape is a sphere... further proof is obtained from the
> evidence of our senses: the world must have the shape its own
> shadow shows; for its perfectly circular outline produces
> eclipses of the Red Moon." I must therefore conclude that the
> true shape of the Earth Rune is not in fact a square or cube,
> but a SPHERE!
Pray tell, which eclipses are these? No poring thro' dusty
scrolls has ever uncovered a reference to such.
---------------------
From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
Subject: MOON LIGHT
Message-ID: <9309131151.AA13218@Sun.COM>
Date: 13 Sep 93 11:37:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1657
Ref: X-RQ-ID: 1619 (David Dunham)
Ah, David you assume that the Sun and Moons are light emmitters.
Personally I like the idea that they are holes in the sky which
filter the light which is forced down from above. This fits nicely for
the Sun which is a moving hole (the stars are said to be stationary, but
we can't see them during the day so who knows). The Blue (Cyan) Moon is
a whole the size of the sky, but cycles with the sun only showing during
the day. The Red Moon is more of a problem in that it is a physical lump
of rock, but it must get (STEAL) its light from somewhere. I see it as
grabbing light from beyond the sky and radiating it, unfortunately it also
filters it so that it comes out magenta. Also, because the Red Goddess is
not the ultimate source of the stolen light it varies with her strength.
Thus when she is week she can steal less light and thus the Red Moon has
its cyclic nature (is it really half black half on full power or does the
intensity vary over the entire surface). During the dark of the moon the
Goddess has her hands full, just maintaining her worshippers (& the emperor's)
powers within the Empire and has no energy to shine light and maintain far
flung outposts. Thus to extend the Glowline she needs extra worshippers
as well as temples to the Reaching Moon. My view is that the cyclic nature
of the Moon is a symptome of the cyclic nature of the Goddess and it is the
cyclic nature of the Goddess, not the symptome of the lack of Moonlight that
limits Rune magic etc. Thus, peasants in the Lunar empire can see the Moon's
phases, but they are still confident that the Goddess is just conserving her
strength to protect those within the Empire/Glowline, rather than wasting
it all on arogant showy illumination.
Phew, I didn't realize that this was there till I started writing.
Even more heresies from -----
Lewis
-----
P.S. I really like the floating light results in the horizon theory.
---------------------
From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
Subject: God Learners (& us?)
Message-ID: <9309131253.AA16143@Sun.COM>
Date: 13 Sep 93 12:59:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1658
Here are some really worrying thoughts which have just occured
to me. Well, that's not strictly true, I have been thinking like this for
quite a while but I have only just formed a cohesive enough group of
thoughts to make it worth jotting down.
I fear that this is one heresy that you won't enjoy:
THE GOD LEARNERS
The GLs started off as a fairly advanced civilization which had
developed engineering and was well on the path to tachnology. However,
the civilization was in Gloratha where magic very demonstrably worked!
Thus, with the pragmatism of engineers the GLs incorporated magic into
their knowledge of engineering. Over time they discovered that various
combinations of engineering and magic had unforseen effects, pragmatically
they noted these down and used the beneficial ones to their advantage,
remembered the exotic, but otherwise useless ones against a future
requirement and avoided the unpleasant and dangerous effects.
Aside: Of course, burning water is generally a bad thing, but it does have
some uses in warfare.
Using this magical technology the GLs were able to create various
strange artifacts, such as Cyclopes and other machine-monsters, but were
in fact doing nothing more than the Mostali. However, even at this stage
they can be seen to be departing from the ways of respect for mythology
and the world which is one of the basic tenants of (non-chaotic) existence
on Glorantha. Note, that the Mostali do similar things, but do them to
help repair the World Machine. If the Mostali lost sight of this goal
they might well sink down the path of the GLs and become a menace to all
of creation (Apostate dwarves worry me!). This could be why the Mostali
were among the forfront of those who wiped out the GLs and destroyed and
trapped their sites.
Later the GLs learnt to use the power from other creatures to
help create magic items. The Machine Ruins were one place where this type
of activity was carried out. This is the point at which the GLs started
to lose their souls as they ceased to pay proper respect to other beings
and viewed them only as a resource to be exploited. Some cultures view
this as the start of Earth or World Rape.
The people performing these actions would have had to have a state
of mind similar to illumination to allow them to carry them out without
remorse or concern for the long term consequences. After all is there a
finite number of spirits and what will happen to the Cosmos if all the
spirits are consume to create mass produced magic items. Some believe
that such activities drain the Mana from the Cosmos and that if the GLs
had been allowed to continue the Cosmos would have got slowly less magical.
Some state that this is actually the case and that magic was stronger
before the GLs TAPPED it.
Always the GLs searched for greater power and the next logical step
was to manipulate the Gods themselves in order to produce massive results.
Now, since the Gods are outside time the only way to manipulate them is by
heroquesting into the lands of myth wheer the Gods can be met. By changing
mythology the GLs were able to wield great powers within the world. These,
actions of course had massive effects, not all of them intentional. The
GLs were still persuing their pragmatic engineering approach working with
limited knowledge of the universe. Thus, while they learned to produce
massive changes these often had unfortunate side-effects which agravated
whole populations. This final transgression of the GLs which united most
of the world against them and led to their elimination.
THE SECRET OF THE GOD LEARNERS
While their secret is unknown (except to a few) it may be a very simple
one. A strong centrally ruled society can learn scientific facts about reality
and use these facts to manipulate the world in order to increase the power
of that society. The society will appear to be successful and can supress
dissenting individuals. Unfortuantely, such societies tend to be wasteful
and consume natural resources without regard for the future. They are also
sterile without regard for our mythological heritage. This in turn leads to
a loss of our place in the Cosmos and a lack of respect for the world around
us. While these societies appear to be prosperous in the short term their
ways lead to inevitable long term ruin, thus they must be dismantled.
NOTES
The Red Goddess heroquested to alter mythology (within time) to allow
for her inclusion. The Lunar empire which she produced is strongly centerally
controlled by her son the Emperor. It encourages pragmatic (illuminated)
thought and is ruled by a small illuminated elite who are dedicated to the
ideals of the Empire. The Empire has developed very powerful massed magics
(Reference, the attack on the Giants Cradle and other battles against the
Empire) and have even learned how to repair and use some of the old GL
constructs which they have discovered (Reference the Watchdog of Corflu).
One hypothesis is that the Red Goddess and the Seven Mothers were
God Learners. This would explain some of the mysteries of the Empire and
its formation.
OUR WORLD
Doesn't the above remind you of our world with the overiding
concentration on scientific and technological progess without regard for
anything else. In fact the only one regime in history has been more
damaging to both the natural world and our mythological heritage that our
current capitalist, centerally controlled regimes and that was the
Soviet communist dictatorship.
Hell, it really frightens me.
-----
Lewis
-----