Bell Digest v930917p1

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 17 Sep 1993, part 1
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Sender: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
Precedence: junk

The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.

Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM",
they will automatically be included in a next issue.  Try to change the
Subject: line from the default Re: RuneQuest Daily...  on replying.

Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest.  If you 
want to submit articles to the Digest only,  contact the editor at
RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM.

Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor:

RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld)

---------------------

From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: Issaries and then some
Message-ID: 
Date: 16 Sep 93 07:30:12 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1709

Greg Fried here.

Ken:
I guess we can live with a future that is "uncertain, but not bleak" -- we'll
be crossing our fingers for ya!
===
Donald:
What can I say?  You are a WILD MAN!  Power on, dude!
===
Nick:
That God-Learner slave of yours sure coughed up a convincing mytho-logos this
time!  Now I can see just why so many of you find tradetalk so repelling,
especially those of you who think 'Issaries' is a curruption of ancient,
noble, barbarian ur-myth-forms.

So what is to be done?  I agree that there's no way to 'get back' the
corrupted gods.  Mythological figures in Glorantha are like species in the
RW: once a species evolves or gets wiped out, it's gone. Period.  More than
that, the whole CONTEXT in which it had its existence is gone too.  SO
there's no going back, only forward.  BUt this does not mean that (thru
heroquesting and other means), those who would like to see Issaries purge
himself of GL influence and move back to the fold of Orlanth can't forge a
new myth-context in which this would be possible.  Just that the evolving
Issaries would not duplicate the ancient forms.  (No more than a rhinoceros
duplicates a triceratops, although it does occupy a VERY congruent niche in
the eco-context.  If I remember my evo. biology correctly, this is called
'convergence' -- and the principle can be applied to myth.)
===
Simon:
Though I, lowly mendicant that I am, have asked kind souls for copies of RQ4,
I have yet to see it, so I know not what its improvements on spirit combat
are. 

GF out.

---------------------

From: henkl@holland.sun.com (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: Re: Great Plains = Prax?
Message-ID: <1993Sep16.081049.14441@holland.sun.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 08:10:49 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1710

>Jim Rogers here again

>	River of Cradles = Platte R. or Missouri/Kansas R.
>	Prax proper = Central Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, Dakotas
>	Wastes = New Mexico, West Texas, Colorado, Wyoming, Montana

>	I would hope that this might be of some help to those looking for
>ecological / sociological fits between the Praxian nomads and some
>historical parallels.  Since there's lots of stuff out there on the Great
>Plains, have at it!

Except that the area of Prax covers only a fraction of the corresponding
area that you mention.  From north to south, Prax doesn't extend no further
than 300 km. (or was that miles?)

I think it would be difficult to stuff all those states you mention into
an area the size of Prax and environs.

-- 
Henk	|	Henk.Langeveld@Sun.COM - Disclaimer: I don't speak for Sun.
oK[]	|	RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM

---------------------

From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: The Stuff of Reality
Message-ID: <930916082123_100270.337_BHB40-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 16 Sep 93 08:21:23 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1711

___________________
Steve Thomas wrote:

> Mythology can be changed by heroquesters, but these are changes to 
> the stuff of reality itself (which even the gods are made of) and it
> doesn't then spring back into its natural shape.

I half-agree. But the downfall of the God Learners is usually seen as a 
"backlash" by nature against their deviant, rules-lawyering, powergaming 
ways. Which (I think) caused as many problems as it solved -- looking at 
the maps, the world certainly wasn't "just the same" after the God Learners 
as it had been before them. The damage stayed, and some bits were made 
worse (naturally) to avoid becoming worse (artificially).

James Wadsley made similar and valid points, IMHO.

___________________________
Our Beloved RuneCzar wrote:

> I have no idea who Tyram is. Ask Sandy. It was on a list of a jillion
> questions I intended to ask him, and never got resolved. I kept the
> reference rather perversely just for its complete obscurity. In fact, 
> I kind of hope that Sandy doesn't even know the answer.

Maybe he doesn't ! He forgot Yanafal on his list of Superheroes in
Tales #7... Excuse me while I radiate smugness in the corner.

______________________________
jacobus@sonata (?) speculated:

> Waha altered the animals of the Beastriders to be able to digest the
> plants of the Wastes (I conclude this from the fact that "Herd Men" 
> can eat the tough Waste grasses).

You are 100% correct: award yourself a Junior Prax Ranger's Gold Star. 
Incidentally, an Altered Person herd-man (i.e. your character who the 
Morokanth got) can chew cud and live, too...

I liked the discussion of Praxian terrain: it all seems plausible enough, 
and is well argued and detailed. Nice one!

An' de Tradetalk bit make big big sense.

__________________

Anbjorn Ragnarsson, Storm Voice of Orlanth is unfortunately confusing the 
defense of orthodoxy with propagation of heresy. If he would like to debate 
this matter further, I can give him the number of Mercartor's room in 
college (being sworn to the God of Truth, I could scarcely deny him this 
interesting factual snippet).

====
Nick
====

"The mer-things change, but we remain the same."
-- a God Learner afterlife belief (I think)


---------------------

From: S.Phillips@gla.ac.uk
Subject: various from Harry Sigerson
Message-ID: <16_Sep_93_17:18:34_A108AD@UK.AC.GLA.VME>
Date: 16 Sep 93 16:18:34 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1712

HELLO FROM HARRY SIGERSON ON SAM'S MAILBOX
------------------------------------------
 
Hello again,  now that the Daily has come to life again I thought I'd 
send some comments.
 
NON VIOLENT ADVENTURES.
 
As Sam said in his recent submission my campaign has had little if 
any violence. As often as not it's due to having better things to do 
during an adventure than run a slice and dice session.  All this was 
true until last night when I thought  "lets give them a fright and 
try and beat the crap out of them!"  Well with four Sun County 
militia men an ex Lunar soldier/Grantlands settler and a geas ridden 
retired Templar I very nearly did for my whole group! It also took 
two hours to run a fight of less than ten rounds. Maybe I'm out of 
practice but I remember being able to run such a fight between a 
whole Lunar patrol and a party of eight in an hour or so! I suppose I 
needed to get back in the swing at some point.
 
While I don't usually have much violence I am very fond of the threat 
of it. Apart from freeing more time for other activities e.g. 
talking, bargaining and arguing in character, it is also much more 
realistic. Even in a world with available and easy healing noone 
wants to tempt fate when a threat can get the job done just as well.
 
On a related issue; movement in combat. I'm sick and tired of static 
fights, in reality fights move (obviously) and half of the art of 
combat is backing your opponent into trouble, of a cliff , down slope 
etc. I've decided to dispense with trying to create rules for it and 
leave it in the hands of the players. If they want to beat a 
difficult opponent then they must use their imaginations, the lay of 
the land and the special success rule (below) to their advantage 
because from now on their enemies will!
 
While reading the RQ IV draft I decided to adopt the special success 
rule used for special combat maneuvers for all unusual actions the 
players try and not bother with them requiring specific training. So 
if a PC wants to attempt a feint to get round that troll guard then 
they can. If they fail to get a special then they end up nose to 
snout with a very amused troll and the fun begins!
 
That was a bit of diatribe!
 
NEWBIES
 
I must agree with Colin I'm very glad to hear about Chris Cooke's 
experiences as a starting GM. So Chris keep sending in your thoughts 
and observations. As a RQ GM and player  of some twelve years 
standing it's great to have some of those feelings from my early days 
stirred up, even if it is only vicariously. Ta much Chris!
 
Recently a new player joined my long standing group of players. He 
had never played RQ and only played various forms of D&D. I pretty 
much left his "education" in the hands of my players (that sounded a 
little ominous). But I did just dump the Cults of Prax on his lap and 
say "read that" . I remember someone commenting on it not being the 
way to introduce a new player to Glorantha but he really enjoyedit 
especially when I recommended he read it like a story( this is 
getting back to the soft/hard backgrounding debate of a few months 
ago. What helped more than anything was his fellow players 
enthusiasm.
 
 
ISSARIES AS A GL CONSTRUCT
 
The female, zebra riding, ex Pavis Royal Guard, Herald in my group 
had only one comment to make on this debate, "oh yes, whats a God 
Learner?" What can I say she's very goal orientated!
 
I thought Steve Thomas' diatribe on Issaries was a hoot and I plan to 
milk it for everything I can get from it during my campaign.
 
Got to go now, Sam's throwing me off the computer. But I'll be back! 
(P.S. are all big Arnie's characters Storm Bullers?!)
Cheers All!
Harry.
 
(S.Phillips - Not Scotland but Sartar).

---------------------

From: clay@cool.vortech.com (Clay Luther)
Subject: Re: Things that are not what they seem.
Message-ID: <199309161638.AA07959@cool.vortech.com>
Date: 16 Sep 93 06:38:50 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1713

> 
> TO:	RQDIGEST, INTERNET:RUNEQUEST@GLORANTHA.HOLLAND.SUN.COM
> 
> Re:	That which is not what it seems. 
> 
> Clay Luthor writes:
       ^^^^^^

I have conferred with my friend, Oster Iminus of Irippi Ontor, and he
informs me that the correct Imperial spelling is l-u-t-h-e-r.  Since this is
the way I had been spelling it for a long time, I was glad to hear this.  I
also asked him what, if any, penalties existed for misspelling Imperial words.
Oster replied that unless the misspelling caused libelous harm, the Emperor
tended to be forgiving (though, he assured me, the Emperor never misspells 
himself and personally takes a dim view towards misspellers).  However, Oster
continued, if it the misspeller was of Theyleyan descent, I could implore
the Governor to arrest the individual for intensive "spelling training" at
the Temple.


> --------------------------
> >First, we don't know how much the GLs changed Issaries (I think not very
> >First, we don't know how much the GLs changed Issaries (I think not very
> >much at all) and, second, history proves that myth is highly mutable.  By your
> >very argument, the changes wrought on Issaries by the GLs several hundred
> >years ago may have themselves changed back by now.  
> 
> No no and again no! I don't believe that changes just change themselves 
> (at least, not since the great compromise). Mythology can be changed by 
> heroquesters, but these are changes to the stuff of reality itself (which 

Utter bullcock.  Again, I went to Oster and asked him about this.  Oster says,
and I agree, that heroquesting obviously cannot be the only way that myth
can change.  He pointed to the course of a river.  Man may damn up a river
or change its course, but if he doesn't keep tending his dikes and dams, the
river will wash away his changes and return to its normal course.  Or another
man could come and knock the dam down, allowing the river to resume its 
original course.  He then referred to the Cyclopedia of the Red Moon and
quoted "CIX.X.VII - And SHE said, 'Like a river in all things is the time of
Gods.  It flows eternally upon itself, forever following its infinite courses.'"

True: A heroquestor, like a dam builder, is a frightening thing.  Think, says 
Oster, if we gave everyone the knowledge and tools to build dams.  Each man 
would attempt to shape the river to his liking, drowning his brother's crops 
and starving his neighbors, while trying to get the best water for himself.  
This is why the Emperor only allows dam building after careful consideration.
By the same token, it is why heroquestors must be controlled by the Goddess,
and if not controlled, punished and destroyed.


> >Certainly avatars of the god existed at the fringe of the GL influence...
> 
> What is a god's "avatar" in a Gloranthan sense ? Some kind of super 
> cult spirit watching over the cult? If they're spirits they're probably too 
> weak, if gods, then their hands are tied by the Compromise. Anyway
> I think that 'certainly' is deeply overstating the case.

We are all avatars of our Gods.  To think otherwise is the heresy of the
Jrusteli.  Oster (he is so patient and willing to answer my questions!) 
referred again to the CRM: "V.I.IV - 'Look into me and you see a mirror,
reflecting back your reflection and mine.'"


> >But I disagree with your assumption that the GLs could whole-heartedly change
> >the myth without leaving some stamp.  History proves that this cannot be
> >done.  Changes to myths always leave artifacts and questions. 
> 
> First off, what about Caladra and Aurelion? Their worshippers don't hang
> about in corners muttering darkly about GL interference. Indeed, nor did
> anyone else until the cult writeup was available to those of us with the
> RuneQuest Sight in Tales #7.

AHA!  But you only proved my point!  How can you even speak about Caladra and 
Aurelion as being affected by the GLs UNLESS you were somehow able to detect
it?  Again, it can simply be seen that nothing the GLs did could remain
absolutely undetectable.  And to answer the next question regarding this
abomination, why haven't the machinations of the GLs vanished in this
instance?  Because the misguided worshippers continue to support this
broken myth.

> Second, most heroquests take place in pre-history, indeed pre-time, where
> contradictions are the norm and questions are their own answers. Who can
> say what 'was' true 'then'.

In pre-time, before the coming of chaos, there were no questions, by the will
of the Great Heavenly Father, Yelm.  Orlanth-Chaos was the harbinger of those
and the destroyer of the Perfect World.

-- 
Clay Luther                              clay@cool.vortech.com
Software Engineer                        Kodak Health Imaging Systems
Yelo's gift was a necklace of clam shells from the Ouel Stream strung on gut
string with a delicate knot of reeds which performed the role of pendant.

---------------------

From: staats@MIT.EDU (Richard C. Staats)
Subject: The Red Goddess versus the Great Compromise
Message-ID: <9309161715.AA02606@MIT.EDU>
Date: 16 Sep 93 08:14:48 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1714

        I've long viewed the Red Goddess' deification after the Great 
Compromise as the reason that the Lunar religions are able to so adeptly 
blend concepts of Law with   Chaos .  Law and Chaos were 
both extent when the Red Goddess was in mortal form, but Time Travel was 
not.  Perhaps as part of the apotheosis, the Red Goddess encountered a 
powerful being who *was* subject to the Great Compromise like a mythical 
form of Arach. Solara who gave the Red Goddess some of its powers so 
that the Red Goddess was able to assume her goddess form.  So, the Red 
Goddess was able to freely take from what she experienced in the mortal 
plane and also what she was given during the deification, but even the 
Red Goddess could not draw upon those things which were not available 
when she ascended.  This approach also has the side benefit of disuading 
players from attempting to go questing for time travel abilities, etc.

        Just my $.02.

        Rich

---------------------

From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
Subject: Bound shamans; spirit weapons; Goat Riders; ecology rant
Message-ID: <9309161727.AA02717@condor>
Date: 16 Sep 93 17:27:07 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1715


Simon Hibbs wrote:
>As for being able to summon shaman spirits :
>I doubt it. It depends on what summoning rituals actualy do. I think they are
>probably too hit and miss. The target shaman would have to be discorporate
>at the time anyway.

I dunno. Working shamans are discorporate fairly regularly (i.e. working, as
opposed to galavanting off on adventures). And if you knew the Name of the
shaman there would be no random element in the summoning.
However it did strike me (after my original post on this matter) that
shaman spirits might be different from common magic spirits because they
could have more characteristics. Discorporation only requires lack of SIZ.
Maybe shamans retain STR, CON, & DEX as well as INT & POW while discorporate.
I dunno about APP (but I guess CHA travels into the spirit world, eh Greg?:-).
This would make binding a shaman a major project: 1 point of POW for each
stat of the creature bound means 5-6 points of POW to make a binding
enchantment to hold a shaman. Maybe worth it though...

I thought this plot-device might make the bones of a reasonable RQ scenario:
- Tribal Shamans are going Missing In Action when they discorporate.
- The PCs are called on to investigate.
- Clues lead to the revelation that some nasty sorceror has discovered how
  to summon/bind discorporate shamans.
- The PCs are sent to Sort Out the sorceror, free the bound shamans & destroy
  any research records which are found.
- If successful, the PCs are heartily rewarded buy the shamans' tribe(s).

This could lead in to a lengthy trail of adventures as the PCs track down
any bound shamans who have be traded/sold. Who knows how far into Lunar
civilisation the PCs might have to travel...

------
Greg Fried: (Spiritual Weapons)
I'm hesitant in supporting the characteristic vs. characteristic idea. In
some ways it's neat but on the other hand it looks like just another way
of accomplishing a spell effect *without* having to cast a spell (why not
just cast befuddle, demoralise etc?). It would also encourage gross stats
or penalise those who didn't have gross stats. (I know this happens anyway
but this would make it even worse). IMHO.
It might be better simply to have more interesting spells which only work
on the spirit plane/on spirits.

Or perhaps mimic "real" combat:
- Chose your weapons (stats) for attack and "parry".
  (The following table is just an example: the values need a *lot* of tweaking)
    weapon SR damage    base%   AP
     INT    3  2D6    15%+INT  
     POW    2  1D10   20%+POW  
     CHA    1  1D8    25%+CHA  
- These "weapons" inflict damage to MP if attack is successful.
- Reduce damage by the appropriate "AP" if "parry" is successful.
- Spirit Screen gives spiritual "armour" which reduces damage further.
- Glamour works like Bladesharp for your CHA :-)
- Skill in attack & "parry" increases with experience for each weapon.
- etc.

I guess you get the picture. Is it too corny or what?

-------
I'm in the mood for typing, so here's a (none too serious) view of
Gloranthan ecology, nomads etc.

Josh Wright said (of earthly nomads):
>Lots of these guys also eat sheeps and goats (who don't seem to be much in 
>evidence on Prax?).

This is because sheep and goats don't make decent combat mounts.
There's an old saying amongst the nomads of Prax:
 "Never domesticate anything unless it can get *at least* +4d6 damage modifier."
Ancient scrolls tell us of how the Goat Riders of Prax were wiped out many
centuries ago by a mistake on the part of our friends the Stormbulls. The LhM
scholar Facitus the Cynical records the final words of the last of the
Goat Riders, Turkan Cheesebeard, to an anonymous Storm Khan, thus:
 TC: "Say, that's a *nice* Skybull. I'm the last of the Goat Riders don't you
      know."
 SK: "Ug. Goat... rider... Um. Broo. Chaos. Kill." CHUD!

And that was the end of that.

The Great Sheep Riders of Prax, on the other hand, quickly became disgruntled
with their lot (and feared they would be next for the chop). And so they prayed
to Waha for a herd beast with more Armour which could do Lots of Damage. And
lo, Waha was in a good mood. And so all the sheep in Prax transformed and were
replaced by Rhinos. Even to this day Rhino riders are fond of woolen garments...
But don't remind them about it.

:-)
--------
:-|
Seriously, though, one look through the Gloranthan Bestiary is enough tell
you that the ecology of Glorantha *must* be supported by magical means (in
fact the intro says as much). There are just too many gargantuan species
around for normal ecology to work. The only reason that there is a niche
for humans is because they have Gods/Myths on their side. Otherwise they'd
be down in the food chain somewhere between Rubble Runners and Trollkin.

It's a world for Heroes. The ecology must be equally heroic.

CW.

---------------------

From: C442196@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu (Newton Hughes)
Subject: it's the rules
Message-ID: <9309161738.AA01201@Sun.COM>
Date: 16 Sep 93 17:18:49 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1716

Thanks to everybody for supplying answers to my last batch of
questions on Gorgorma/Babeester Gor, the Red Moon, & line of sight.
The answers were impressive.

Greg - don't let me stop you from working on the spirit combat stuff.
It sounds good.

When I first read the stuff in the back of Dragon Pass about Argrath's
organizing the bush magicians, shamans, medicine men, etc., it gave the
impression of a great variety of approaches that doesn't come anywhere
close to being reflected in the rules.  Though sorcery is the worst
example, all of the magic rules seem much too mechanistic to me.
The ideas posted here lately sound like improvements.

nh

---------------------

From: runelord@prax.ebay.sun.com (David B. Williams)
Subject: RQIV Mailing List
Message-ID: <9309161751.AA19026@prax.EBay.Sun.COM>
Date: 16 Sep 93 17:51:01 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1717

Every now and again, I hear someone mention the RQIV Mailing List.
Could someone let me know how I can get on it?

--Dave