From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 21 Sep 1993, part 1
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Sender: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
Precedence: junk
The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.
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RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld)
---------------------
From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham , via RadioMail)
Subject: Economics & Magic
Message-ID: <199309180543.AA23414@radiomail.net>
Date: 18 Sep 93 05:42:07 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1738
>From: mmlab!cookec%max@uunet.UU.NET (Kiliki)
>I have some questions, if I could. Why is armor so expensive yet spells so
>cheap? At 30 + 15 per spell point Heal-6 is only 120 but good armor is at
>least 10 times that. Ok, outside your cult it's 100+50/pt=400 or am I missing
>something? (Costs from Apple Lane I think) How high can they teach? 4?6?12?
>Do they have to have the spell that high to teach it as such?
I know that a knight's full plate armor took about a year to make. So
that's a year of very skilled labor, to say nothing of cost of materials
(steel, charcoal, etc.)
But anyone can learn Heal-6, and it doesn't really cost them anything to
cast it. They can cast it a couple times a day without raising a sweat.
Or did you mean the cost of learning a spell? A priest casts a
Spellteaching rune spell, which he can get back with one day's prayer.
Again, not very involved.
The shaman or priest arranging the learning of a spell doesn't have to know
the spell.
The RQ3 economics is more or less based on the time it takes to do things
(including the time it takes to regain a point of POW spent in an
enchantment), and the standard of living of the person doing them.
David Dunham * Software Designer * Pensee Corporation
Voice/Fax: 206-783-7404 * AppleLink: DDUNHAM * Internet: ddunham@radiomail.net
---------------------
From: gadbois@cs.utexas.edu (David Gadbois)
Subject: Re: Nick of Time
Message-ID: <9309180632.AA26491@peaches.cs.utexas.edu>
Date: 17 Sep 93 20:32:25 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1739
From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Date: 17 Sep 93 09:12:04 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1723
___________
john asked: [about Moon Boats, and Nick replied that they were used
for a variety of purposes, including:]
"Official business" in the Empire is also the private business of
Lunar nobles; the satraps maintain private (Imperial) armies, and
perhaps have access to private (Imperial) Moon Boats as well. Read
the younger Pliny's letters to the emperor Trajan re: private use
of Imperial courier ships, and extrapolate from that.
Thanks for backing me up! (I'm playing a minor Dara Happan noble in
John's campaign, and any help I can get is appreciated.)
The notion of mixed private/public use is a contentious one here in
the States (c.f. the debates on the privatization of the Internet, as
wel as the political downfalls of William Sessions and (I hope) Kay
Hutchinson.) The notion that the Lunars may think differently is a
pleasant exercise in getting into the Gloranthan mindset.
Another good source for the strangeness of the thinking in the Empire
is "The Ancient Economy" by M.I. Finley (Univ of California Press,
1973, ISBN 0 520 02564 4). The thesis is that the Romans had no
concept of the economic theories that are pretty much common sense to
us all now -- there was no notion of capital as a commodity,
supply-demand microeconomics, economic class stratification, etc.
--David Gadbois
---------------------
From: gadbois@cs.utexas.edu (David Gadbois)
Subject: Re: The Masks of God
Message-ID: <9309180641.AA26540@peaches.cs.utexas.edu>
Date: 17 Sep 93 20:41:14 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1740
From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Date: 17 Sep 93 09:12:38 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1724
[Nick pauses to name-drop in an excellent discussion of comparative
religion:]
But writing up the "Orlanthi Religion" is like writing up "Cults of
the Indo-Europeans": an academic, not a practical exercise. (But a
*very* interesting academic one: anyone else on this list a fan of
Dumezil?)
^^^^^^^
Where to start? A quick check of the UT library catalog got me 68
hits, including such provocative titles as "The Plight of a Sorceror."
(You French must be very good -- only a half-dozen or so titles had
been translated.)
--David Gadbois
---------------------
From: glidedw@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu (Donald Wilton)
Subject: Beginning games
Message-ID:
Date: 17 Sep 93 18:38:55 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1741
A character with heal 6 is by definition a Healer, a pc dedicated to
healing magic and freligion, and incapable of using magic to do harm, or
use force. I never allow more than heal 3, to non-healer pc's. I have
Babeesta Gor temple guardians go out and kill people with Heal 4 or above,
who haven't taken the healer vow. This is a pc ritual and quest, if I have
any BG's in the game. You could lower the damage done, or have questing
closer to town. There's no reason to hit upon a Hero of vivamort in full
vampiric form in the first game, though it might be fine for next Halloween.
---------------------
From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Lese-majeste? Phooey!
Message-ID: <930918100051_100270.337_BHB40-2@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 18 Sep 93 10:00:52 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1742
_______________
A Clarification
Henk mistakenly attributed one of my speculations as an Authoritative Quote
from Greg Stafford. Sorry about that, guys! The authentic stuff was marked
with | sidelines:
| Like this!
The G.S. quote was the one "He *might* be able to get his berserker"
through to "recognised as Storm Bull the Boar!", and not my paragraph
following on from that.
I think Henk is probably right about a nasty way of God Learning -- after
all, isn't this just what the Seven Mothers did?? Phooey! (Or Phye, for
those with any Grecian nous)...
__________________
Chris Cooke asked:
> Can a human member of Aldrya's cult use the elf bow? Why or why not?
I'd say "not". He's not a vegetable, and can't communicate/empathise with
it. But, hey, if that'll annoy a newbie player, of *course* he can use it!
(Let's be reasonable, here!)
____________
Andre asked:
> Where (in which box, perhaps) can be found information about Jrustela
> (the sunk continent). A LOT of info, I mean. Are there any remaining
> God Learners? How goes the human contacts with the native elder races
> after all those centuries of isolation?
There isn't really "a LOT of info" about the God Learners. Probably you
can't get at Wyrms Footnotes #5 p.33 on the Mystical Synthesis Movement
(which should be in Wyrms Footprints when that's done, fingers crossed and
touching wood): the best source for how they used to work. A History of
Jrustela is in the "Glorantha" boxed set, and tells you all about how evil
they were and what a good thing it is they aren't around any more. The
Elder Races on Jrustela are rather twee-ly described in "Elder Secrets",
but I wouldn't spend much time on those if I were you. I hope there are NO
remaining God Learners, but you keep hearing these rumours...
An open question: why do so many people *want* there to be surviving GLs?
These guys would be ungamemasterably campaign-wreckingly knowledgeable and
powerful: like adding an NPC rules lawyer and Glorantha buff powergaming
HeroQuester to your game. Honestly, I can live without the hassle!
AND that f***ing Feldichi Artifact...
____________________
David Gadbois wrote:
>> But writing up the "Orlanthi Religion" is like writing up "Cults of
>> the Indo-Europeans": an academic, not a practical exercise. (But a
>> *very* interesting academic one: anyone else on this list a fan of
>> Dumezil?)
^^^^^^^
> Where to start? A quick check of the UT library catalog got me 68
> hits, including such provocative titles as "The Plight of a Sorceror."
> (Your French must be very good -- only a half-dozen or so titles had
> been translated.)
My French is slow and plodding, but these books are worth the effort.
Sticking to translated works, start with "The Destiny of the Warrior": it's
the best introduction I know to his way of working. What sinister thread
links three-headed Indian monsters, the Oath of the Horatii, and Starkadder
Eightarms? "The Destiny of a King" and "Archaic Roman Religion" are good
fun, too. But all of these can be quite heavy going: I hope you find them
worthwhile.
The pay-off is thinking, "If that's what related myths look like in
different cultures of our world, why should they look any closer in
Glorantha?" Then you can start working out what Yelmic versions of Orlanthi
stories would look like, et cetera, and the Monomyth becomes sidelined as
irrelevant to most cultures' world-views. Anyoldhow, Dumezil's work was one
of the launch-pads for whatever "Gloranthan Insight" I may have developed
(along with Campbell and Eliade).
Yours in tripartite functionality,
====
Nick
====
(Greg sez CREDO went to the printers today: I feel tingly all over!)
---------------------
From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Masks of God 2: Elmal v. Yelmalio
Message-ID: <930918101940_100270.337_BHB42-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 18 Sep 93 10:19:40 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1743
Continuing one theme from yesterday's mega-post:
Loren said:
>> Using this theory the easiest way to define an avatar is as a mask
>> of a god, which has access to the true form of the god, but which
>> is not the true form of the god. Usually, this means that the version
>> of the god that we worship is obviously the true god...
I replied:
> This is nicely put. We know that we worship God properly: we know
> stories about him that other people don't tell as well; our statue
> looks more like him; the weapon he carries is different; our Thun-
> derer's voice is more booming and resonant...
I now expand:
This doesn't always work: witness Elmal --> Yelmalio. The Sartarite cult of
Elmal started to doubt that their "version" of the Sun God was "obviously
the true god": they saw the Dara Happans' mundane and magical wealth and
power as *validating* that foreign religion, and were 'hooked'. The result
was a major cultural change, as bits of the old Elmal religion were lost or
supplanted by the imported Yelmic rites and the god became "Yelmalio".
I also quibble:
Loren's post presupposes a "true form of the god". Is this Platonic, Runic,
a God Learner Construct, or a Real Thing? I mean, do you think *anyone*,
*anywhere* in the world worships the "true form" of Orlanth? Or is it just
me and the rest of the Greydog Clan who do that?
Nick says: there *are* only versions, masks, avatars. "True Forms" are a
Jrusteli philosophical (misosophical?) construct, an interpretation of the
world only possible to those with the RuneQuest Sight . Don't
let them get you down! The best way to worship Orlanth is the way he *is*
worshipped, not the way someone tells you he "ought to be" worshipped.
Deep stuff, this. I enjoy it.
====
Nick
====
---------------------
From: clay@cool.vortech.com (Clay Luther)
Subject: Re: The seduction - night #2
Message-ID: <199309181621.AA12574@cool.vortech.com>
Date: 18 Sep 93 06:21:47 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1744
> I have some questions, if I could. Why is armor so expensive yet spells so
> cheap? At 30 + 15 per spell point Heal-6 is only 120 but good armor is at
> least 10 times that. Ok, outside your cult it's 100+50/pt=400 or am I missing
> something? (Costs from Apple Lane I think) How high can they teach? 4?6?12?
> Do they have to have the spell that high to teach it as such?
Well, I would have to say you're missing something: armor works all the time,
doesn't require magic points, won't get tired, and can protect against a
theoretically infinite number of hits (individual hits) per round.
Heal-6, while extremely powerful (no Arroyan should leave home without it ;) )
requires between 1/2 and 1/3 of the caster's magic points and is not
completely guaranteed to work. Furthermore, your ability to cast spells is
always dependent on your standing in the cult, placing further restrictions on
the use of spells.
> | Chris Cooke - cookec@mmlab.UUCP cookec@mml.mmc.com |
--
Clay Luther clay@cool.vortech.com
Software Engineer Kodak Health Imaging Systems
Yelo's gift was a necklace of clam shells from the Ouel Stream strung on gut
string with a delicate knot of reeds which performed the role of pendant.
---------------------
From: gal502@cscgpo.anu.edu.au (Graeme A Lindsell)
Subject: Lots of Stuff
Message-ID: <9309190637.AA29772@cscgpo.anu.edu.au>
Date: 19 Sep 93 16:38:28 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1745
Graeme Lindsell here:
Nick writes:
> Hey, so did I! Except that 'cos I'd started out by knocking the Cult of
> Orlanth as "about as useful a concept as the Cult of Dyaus-Pitar", I got a
and
> Religion" is like writing up "Cults of the Indo-Europeans": an academic,
> not a practical exercise. (But a *very* interesting academic one: anyone
> else on this list a fan of Dumezil?)
I don't suppose you could explain these references for those of us with
less mythology? Is Dumezil an author?
> That's more or less where I got to with him. But in Glorantha, Uleria is
> certainly *the* most omnipresent goddess imaginable, so I don't know about
Really? Ernalda/Dendara/however many other names she has would seem to be
the most widely worshipped goddess. Almost every (human) culture which
depends on farming (90%+ of Glorantha's population) seems to worship some
variant or daughter of Ernalda. Though most people accept Love (the
Kingdom of War aside), almost everyone lives on Earth - I'd say
only the Waertagi and some fisherfolk wouldn't accept her a a major
diety. Isn't the archetypal example of Greg's comment the Goddess Swap?
> Back to what Greg said about archetypal v. specific functions. If we want a
> single, simple, Gloranthan way of applying this stuff, it could be to draw
> a distinction between the Greater Gods (Rune-owners) and all the other
> ones. All gods with the Storm Rune are, in some ways, similar to Orlanth,
> because Orlanth has "made that Rune his own". So the Great Big Gods are the
> primal archetypes; the smaller ones are spin-offs and local variants (as we
> would expect).
Interesting: would this mean there are no authoritarian, patriarchal
storm gods? Or freedom-loving, wild Solars anywhere? Could this be
why the Elmal cult eventually changed to Yelmalio, because their
mythic links to Yelm forced them to reject Orlanthi culture?
On a related note: suppose some people in Pamaltela have started a
spirit cult worshipping the mysterious Red Moon that appeared in the
northern sky 400 years ago (I would be surprised if no one had). Would
their spirit cult have to include the same elements as Pelorian Lunar
Worship? They had no contact with Genertela until Dormal ~40 years ago.
Would they even see the Moon as female? The earthly link of Luna to
the menstrual cycle wouldn't exist in Glorantha, except to the Blue
Moon.
-
Clay's "Mannimark" - loved it!
-
neil.harold@siecon.co.uk (Neil Harold or Harold Neil?)
writes:
> is Dorastor now out in the US only?
No. I found it here in Canberra last month. (At $22.95 Australian:
I think they priced it wrong)
> Has anyone actually involved the Telmori in any campaign? I
> expect the answer is probably within Dorastor but ......
It is. (Minor spoilers for Dorastor follow):
The Telmori are not all cursed to change each week: some did
not fight for Gbaji and avoided the curse. Those that are cursed
are not full werewolves: do not have any control over their changes,
they can only change one day a week and are forced to do so.
Unlike other werecreatures, they don't have the option of choosing
to change on other days.
-
Chris Cooke - cookec@mmlab.UUCP cookec@mml.mmc.com
> And for the stupid question of the day, why is chaos so wrong and
> what makes it so different(better? worse?) from pure evil?
"What an intelligent question!" exclaims Perusa Illuminatrix.
There is little pure evil that seeks to destroy the entire world.
Glorantha floats in a sea of chaos,from which it formed. The presence
of this bubble of Law is unnatural (!) to the Chaos; it is constantly
attempting to invade Glorantha. This invasion takes the form of a
perversion of Glorantha's natural Law: unnatural Chaos features, Broos
fertilizing everything, Gorp etc. The involuntary reaction of almost
all (see below) inhabitants of Glorantha is to destroy and/or flee
from this disruption of reality.
The exceptions to this hatred of Chaos are the Iluminated. This is
a radical philosophy whose central insight is that chaos is not evil
by nature; it is only through its interaction with Glorantha that
the evil is apparent. You'll find Illumination, and it's advantages
and it's disadvantages, described in Dorastor.
_
Finally, a question of my own: reading KoS last night I noticed the
remarkable dichotomy between the mythical actions of Orlanth and the
lifestyle advocated by his 3rd age priests. The myths of Orlanth before
time show him taking many innovative and creative actions, not tolerating
the restrictions of his conservative elders. The Tales of his actions
during time show him (and the priests who 'interpret his actions) as
essentially reactionary: all innovations (Gbaji, the God Learners, the
EWS, the Lunars) are evil. This seems very odd for a god whose attributes
include rebellion and change.
My question: is this reactionary stance real, or have other innovations
by the Orlanthi during time been accepted into his mythology ie by
Heroquesting?
Graeme Lindsell a.k.a gal502@huxley.anu.edu.au
---------------------
From: kenrolston@aol.com
Subject: Faith in Glorantha
Message-ID: <9309191201.tn57610@aol.com>
Date: 19 Sep 93 16:01:06 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1746
I've been wondering about the nature of faith in Glorantha.
Since the gods are manifest -- or at least as inferentially empirical as lots
of modern physics -- there is no issue of faith in the existence of gods.
The issue of faith in Glorantha is -- are the gods telling the truth?
Also, in tolerant polytheistic Gloranthan societies, there is also the issue
of faith in the moral goodness of the god -- that is, not just whether you
accept his commandments and myths as truth, but whether you "prefer" a god's
moral vision enough to become his initiate. Given the spirits of retribution
of cults, it appears that choosing a different god than the one you were born
has a modest, though significant, personal cost. Is it significant for a
Gloranthan character's story when we learn he has, for example, forsaken the
worship of Orlanth for Chalana Arroy? Or, more dramatically, when he
foresakes the worship of Orlanth for Seven Mothers?
I ask for views on these questions because I'm playing with short stories in
glorantha, and I feel I have no real sense of the religious feeling attached
to the Gloranthan cults. Certainly part of the problem is not knowing
polytheism firsthand. Another is my sense that, since the cult is a game
mechanic, it is insufficiently fleshed out to provide a guide to a common
person's interest in participation in a cult's myths, prescriptions, and
activities.
I note also that I am prejudiced against heroic roleplaying by inclination.
My characters and campaigns are uniformly low-level and focused on everyday
folk (hobbits, if you will) caught up in the affairs of the Big People. I
admire the flavor of epic mythic speculation occasioned by the Gloranthan
setting, but it rarely has much bearing on the things going on in my gaming
world.
Ken Rolston
---------------------
From: henkl@holland.sun.com (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: Re: Lots of Stuff
Message-ID: <1993Sep19.161804.29336@holland.sun.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1993 16:18:04 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1747
gal502@cscgpo.anu.edu.au (Graeme A Lindsell) writes:
> Finally, a question of my own: reading KoS last night I noticed the
>remarkable dichotomy between the mythical actions of Orlanth and the
>lifestyle advocated by his 3rd age priests. The myths of Orlanth before
>time show him taking many innovative and creative actions, not tolerating
>the restrictions of his conservative elders. The Tales of his actions
>during time show him (and the priests who 'interpret his actions) as
>essentially reactionary: all innovations (Gbaji, the God Learners, the
>EWS, the Lunars) are evil. This seems very odd for a god whose attributes
>include rebellion and change.
Would you call Orlanth Adventurous and Orlanth Rex antagonists?
What aspect of Orlanth would be most interesting for a priest, who's
expected to spend most of his time on cult business... What aspect
would be more appropriate for a Rune Lord?
Isn't the myth of Orlanth the story of the rebellious youth, who
*has* to take action against established order, just because it's
there? Only to find out later that he's become part of the
established order, even if it's a different one.
> My question: is this reactionary stance real, or have other innovations
>by the Orlanthi during time been accepted into his mythology ie by
>Heroquesting?
I'd say this is real. Read Skynner on surviving (with) your family...
You need the reactionaries with their establishment and strict rules
so that the rebels can break them. They're expected to, and they need to...
> Graeme Lindsell a.k.a gal502@huxley.anu.edu.au
--
Henk | Henk.Langeveld@Sun.COM - Disclaimer: I don't speak for Sun.
oK[] | RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
---------------------
From: staats@MIT.EDU (Richard C. Staats)
Subject: Buying Enchantments
Message-ID: <9309191810.AA12703@MIT.EDU>
Date: 19 Sep 93 09:10:03 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1748
Greetings!
Reference Colin's excellent queries on buying enchantments:
(1) In my campaigns, enchantments have been rare, but occasionally PC's
have been *loaned* or *given* enchanted items by benefactors for an
important mission or quest.
(2) N/A
(3) It seems reasonable to allow the PC's to buy enchantments if there
is a large market for such things. If everyone enchants things that can
be used by anyone then eventually the world would be flooded with such
things. (I have clung to the convention that when the binder dies,
his/her bound spirits are released. So, the number of bound spirits
tend to be pretty steady-state.)
Hope this helps!
In service,
Rich
---------------------
From: staats@MIT.EDU (Richard C. Staats)
Subject: Chris Cooke's Question on Chaos
Message-ID: <9309191818.AA12837@MIT.EDU>
Date: 19 Sep 93 09:18:28 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1749
Chris:
Chaos ultimately seeks the utter destruction of everything. At least
with evil, there will generally be something left even when its
nefarious plans come to fruition. But if *chaos* wins, there is no hope
--- there's nothing but chaos. By the bye, I'm not advocating evil
either, but in gaming terms, chaos' goals are a lot more frightening.
In service,
Rich