Bell Digest v930922p1

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 22 Sep 1993, part 1
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Sender: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
Precedence: junk

The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.

Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM",
they will automatically be included in a next issue.  Try to change the
Subject: line from the default Re: RuneQuest Daily...  on replying.

Selected articles may also appear in a regular Digest.  If you 
want to submit articles to the Digest only,  contact the editor at
RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM.

Send enquiries and Subscription Requests to the editor:

RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld)

---------------------

From: appel@soda.berkeley.edu (Shannon D. Appel)
Subject: The Chaosium Digest
Message-ID: <9309210636.AA26350@soda.berkeley.edu>
Date: 20 Sep 93 16:36:22 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1765

This is just a quick note on the Chaosium Digest, for those of you who
are not currently aware of its existence.  The rest of you, please
continue on with your regular conversation.

The Chaosium Digest is a weekly Digest dedicated to the discussion of
Chaosium's "other" games.  This primarily includes Call of Cthulhu,
Elric! and Pendragon, although articles about Hawkmoon, Prince
Valiant, Elfquest and any number of other Chaosium games are also
welcome.  The only Chaosium game not discussed upon the Chaosium
Digest is Runequest (because of the existence of this mailing list, of
course).

Recent Articles sent to the Chaosium Digest have included:

Dolphin Tides			(a Call of Cthulhu Adventure)
War Experience for the 1920s	(Alternate Rules for CoC)
Elric! Questions & Answers	(Answers to Elric! questions, by Lynn Willis)
The Courts of Love		(Background for the Pendragon Game)
Knightly Orders			(More Organizations for Pendragon)

The full archives of the Chaosium Digest are available for FTP from
soda.berkeley.edu (that's the same place as the RuneQuest archives, by
the way -- the IP address is 128.32.149.19) under the directory:

	/pub/chaosium

If you'd like to be added to the distribution list for the Chaosium Digest,
drop me a line at:

	appel@erzo.berkeley.edu

Shannon


---------------------

From: gal502@cscgpo.anu.edu.au (Graeme A Lindsell)
Subject: Western writing and God Learners
Message-ID: <9309210642.AA25706@cscgpo.anu.edu.au>
Date: 21 Sep 93 16:43:30 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1766

David Cake writes:
>    Actually, I think that the Westerners have a situation similar to the
> language situation in China - several different languages, that cannot be
> understood by speakers of others (though with some similarities due to joint
> roots), but a common, mutually intelligible script. Does this imply that
> Western script is less like Latin and more like Kanji?

 I think that the Western script may consist of pictograms built up of
the various God Learner runes we're all so familiar with. Thus Stasis
with Earth means "Stone" in Western script, Man with Fertility = Woman.
This may be why the God Learners were so eager to spread their runes around,
spreading a simplified version of their script as well as their language.

The script may have evolved away from looking exactly like the original 
runes though, which is what I think happened with Chinese script: the
current script no longer looks exactly like the original pictures. Someone
who knows more (ie anything) about the subject could tell us more.  

>Well, if Issaries/Tradetalk is really a God-Learner innovation, then it
>probably spread everywhere they did - for a start every major coastal city 
>in Glorantha.

 I _thought_ I read somewhere that Tradetalk is a simplified dialect of
Seshnelan. I'll try to find the reference.

Nick Brooke writes:

>An open question: why do so many people *want* there to be surviving GLs?
>These guys would be ungamemasterably campaign-wreckingly knowledgeable and
>powerful: like adding an NPC rules lawyer and Glorantha buff powergaming
>HeroQuester to your game. Honestly, I can live without the hassle!

 Well they needn't be friends of the PC's. If any exist (outside of the 
Lunar Empire and Loskalm, who we _all know_ are practicing powergamers)
they will probably be keeping very quite, so as not to attract the 
attention of their predecessors: the so-called Gods. If I introduced them
I doubt the players would ever find out what they were.

> AND that f***ing Feldichi Artifact...

 Well I liked it. An ancient artifact that wasn't a weapon or huge 
monster binding enchantment: a real innovation!

 Graeme Lindsell a.k.a gal502@huxley.anu.edu.au


---------------------

From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Mother Tongue
Message-ID: <930921070532_100270.337_BHB55-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 21 Sep 93 07:05:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1767

_______________
Dave Cake said:

> Actually, I think that the Westerners have a situation similar to the
> language situation in China - several different languages, that cannot
> be understood by speakers of others (though with some similarities due
> to joint roots), but a common, mutually intelligible script. Does this
> imply that Western script is less like Latin and more like Kanji?

Me, I say Western script is Latin. But the modern Western languages have 
evolved from their pristine Classical Brithini roots. They now speak French 
in Seshnela, Provencal in Nolos, Italian dialects in Ralios, and something 
Latinate-but-German in Loskalm. Greg Stafford kindly nodded at these, and 
added Spanish in Pamaltela (bordering the Arab cultures of Fonrit).

There's room for a big posting on this some day. May give it a whirl.

_________________________________
Joerg commented (on the 'Masks'):

> This is getting hairy if regarded from the game point of view.

Yes.

> Weeellll, a worship service creates a reality on the god-plane, but to 
> call it a HeroQuest...

Is only common sense.

> If some Uroxi view the Stormbull as a big male cattle, others as 
> impala buck, and yet others as a human with horns, I'd be interested 
> in the mask of the avatar they'll get. If all of them have the same 
> idea of how the god willl appear, it will appear that way.

What you see at a worship service is *obviously* subjective, though it will 
be conditioned by the trappings used and the expectations of the 
worshipper. Cf. KoS p.246 (I should have it enlarged and framed above my 
desk). And, as you noticed, HeroQuesting is essentially similar to a 
worship service, thus another subjective experience.

______________________________________________
Chris Pearce asked (re: the River of Cradles):

> So what's happening at the borders of these cultures?

In Sun County, the Thin Gold Line holds back all unwanted outside forces, 
whether nomads, merchants, adventurers, or Lunar carpetbaggers.

I will be interested to read your conclusions on this subject.

_____________________
Brian Forester asked:

> Has anyone given any thought to what might entail the establishment of
> a Reaching Moon Temple?

See "King of Sartar" p.152ff for the concluding ritual that would have 
established the Wind Top Temple of the Reaching Moon.

We had a Storm Bull minotaur in one of my earlier campaigns, and he never 
caused any real problems. Just insist on the player recognising that he has 
moron-level intelligence and some brutish killing reflexes -- like most 
Storm Bulls and ex-D&Ders! 

And be very careful about what kind of Combat Rage you allow him: this was 
pretty unbalancing in our RQ2 game until we toned it down.

_________________
Greg Fried asked:

> BTW, how do the rest of you price magic items if PCs want to sell them?

*Don't* sell them! Give them to your temple, and accept whatever the 
priests are willing to give you in return. If it's something your temple 
wouldn't want, destroy it to annoy the Evil One.

_________________________
Henk commented to Graeme:

> Would you call Orlanth Adventurous and Orlanth Rex antagonists?

From WF 13 p.7:

:  It is common for people to speak of three or four well-known forms of
:  Orlanth as if they were comparing different gods. In some cases they
:  are treated as different gods with competing priesthoods, religious
:  prejudice, and system snobbery.

Yes, I think some people would.

The business about priesthoods fossilising "spontaneity" is at the heart of 
the cult v. Hero clash. I mean to say, how can you turn "Be Spontaneous" 
into a part of the litany?

> I'd say this is real.  Read Skynner on surviving (with) your family...
> You need the reactionaries with their establishment and strict rules
> so that the rebels can break them.  They're expected to, and they need
> to...

I'd go along with that. The social tensions within Orlanthi society are 
extreme, and intended to be so (cf. KoS p.238f).

_____________
Graeme asked:

(Re: the Cult of Dyaus-Pitar, Cults of the Indo-Europeans, and Dumezil)

> I don't suppose you could explain these references for those of us 
> with less mythology? Is Dumezil an author?

Yep, Georges Dumezil was a polymathic French historical-linguist-cum- 
mythologer who went around various ancient mythical sources noticing the 
thematic and linguistic connections between them and tracing them back to 
proto-Indo-European common cultural origins. Recommended reading list 
elsewhere on the Daily. I could try writing something more general, but 
this would take time. Go to a library, and I'll go to work.

>> Uleria is certainly *the* most omnipresent goddess imaginable

> Really? Ernalda/Dendara/however many other names she has would seem to
> be the most widely worshipped goddess.

Is she acknowledged whenever two dust-motes or raindrops run together?

I was talking about omnipresence, not breadth of worship. And Uleria is the 
only surviving member of the Celestial Court.

> Interesting: would this mean there are no authoritarian, patriarchal
> storm gods? Or freedom-loving, wild Solars anywhere? Could this be
> why the Elmal cult eventually changed to Yelmalio, because their 
> mythic links to Yelm forced them to reject Orlanthi culture?

Ah: Youth and Age have those aspects too. A young solar god could perhaps 
be more wild and free than an aged storm god. Cf. the Orlanths Adventurous 
v. Rex discussion above. But this would be an aspect of the Runic Archetype 
theory, and you are probably right about Elmal, if the theory is valid. 
Though the 'mythic links to Yelm' developed simultaneously with the change 
to Yelmalio, of course.

====
Nick
====

---------------------

From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
Subject: Dorastor in the UK, Spell Prices, Minotaurs and Divergence
Message-ID: <9309210727.AA09394@Sun.COM>
Date: 20 Sep 93 10:11:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1768


Ref: X-RQ-ID: 1735 (Niel Harold?) 

Dorastor is available at Virgin Games Centres priced 18 pounds, 
Esdevium charges about 19 pounds and others seem to charge up to 20 pounds!

Ref: X-RQ-ID: 1737 (Chris Cooke) 

	Keep up the good work converting the heathen.  

Two points: 

1) Cost of spirit magic = 30 + 15 per point; so that the first point costs 45
the second costs 60 etc.  Thus Heal 6 costs 45+60+75+90+105+120 = 495 L!

Also remember that these spells must be won from a spell spirit with an 
average of 2 POW for each point of spell.  Thus PCs are unlikely to have 
spells of more points than half their POW.  

2) Watch out for the minotaur!  At the moment he may appear cute and mostly 
harmless but watch out.  With some STR training his damage bonus may get pretty
horrendous and couple this with a pole axe and bladesharp 4 (5 or 6D6 + 4) and 
you have a definate problem.  Also never let him near the Storm Bull cult as 
they would just love to have him (train him, armour him, indocrinate him, 
psyche him up and point him at chaos and say kill it!).  Remember that minotaursgo berserk very easily and then it is strike with weapon and head butt each 
round.  

I only warn you about this because I allowed my brother to play a beginning 
minotaur (with a few gifts and a bit of training) with a party of runelevels. 
(This was after his Storm Kahn had been killed in a fight with a PC Humakti!)
Anyway a couple of adventures down the road and they were on this Giant's 
Cradle floating down the Zola Fel.  When the Lunar Governor's Guard (All 90% 
in full plate armour, shield 2, hoplite shield, fireblade on their spears etc.)
attacked along a dwarf assault ladder the minotaur countercharged them.  
Waited till he received a minor wound/ made a special attack and went berserk. 
He then proceded along the ladder killing one or two a round, note the first 
one never got a chance to strike him because he was BIG, dextrous and used a 
pole axe, the second one would get to strike a blow just before the horns got 
to him.  The pole axe was doing about 6d6+6 damage at about 200% attack 
(needless to say not many survived), the horns were doing 4d6+4 at about 130% 
attack so a fair number survived these, only to get the pole axe next round.  

So there you go, he may be cute and fluffy when he is young, but baby minotaurs
grow into big minotaurs and they cause big trouble.  I recommend that the 
safest place for him is behind bars in a zoo.  

>Nick
	While I agree about cult divergence etc. it is worth noting that 
Glorantha has only had 1600 years to diverge in.  Look at christianity it 
has split all over the place and different factions have even used this as
an excuse to kill each other.  BUT most christians would admit that they 
worship the same god as the other guys, even though they are the only ones 
who are doing it correctly!

-----
Lewis
-----

---------------------

From: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu (Loren J. Miller)
Subject: Re: Faith in Glorantha
Message-ID: <01H37F1A75MG8Y5S9A@wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: 21 Sep 93 05:10:04 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1769

I think that Faith is essentially a non-issue in Glorantha. 

Firstly, I know of no pre-christian religions that emphasized faith
for common worshippers. I think that glorantha hearkens back to
pre-christian religion for most of its culture and would be surprised
if christian concepts such as "grace" and "faith" and "original sin"
played a big part in gloranthan religion. Maybe you can find
reflections of these concepts in the west, with Solace (like grace),
but they wouldn't be quite the same.

Faith could also refer to an unshakable conviction that one's own god
or culture is superior to all others. This is pretty similar to the
israelite mindset when their tribal volcano god Yahweh beat the other
gods (various Baals) in the fire creation contest. While it's obvious
that the Greydog clan is the greatest and most moral clan in the
world, do we need to give pride of origin a name like "faith" and make
all sorts of inferences about it?

Or, faith is pretty similar to confidence in one's unproven abilities.
Something like this might have been taught to advanced initiates in
earthly religions to build their confidence so they could work magic.
You *do* need faith if you wish to exert your will on unseen forces,
and that's the consensus on how magic works on earth. However, that's
not quite how magic works in glorantha. In glorantha magic is tactile
and apparent to all the senses, and everybody can learn to use it. So,
I don't think faith is necessary in order to use magic in glorantha.

Polytheism isn't quite like gloranthan multi-monotheism. In
polytheistic societies most people join as many cults as they want to
and worship any or all of the gods as appropriate. At harvest time
they worship the harvest god. In winter they worship the frost giants.
Etc. Only fanatics and holy men/women sunder all their ties but one
and pledge themselves to a single cult. In glorantha everybody joins a
single cult and pledges themselves for the rest of their life to a
single god. I recognise that the nature of cults in glorantha is
largely a game construct rather than a reflection of "life in
glorantha" (odd to think of a fictional setting that way) but
somewhere you need to make a decision. Do the "cult rules" in RQ
determine the way that cults work in glorantha, or do cults in
glorantha work the same way that cults work(ed) on earth?

You have to decide whether the setting is primary, or the rules.
Currently we only know the rules, and don't know enough about the
setting.

Hey! This is the same problem I have with the sorcery rules!


whoah,
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller            internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu
"Enough sound bites. Let's get to work."        -- Ross Perot sound bite

---------------------

From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
Subject: Minotaurs, Stormbull and Enchantments
Message-ID: <9309211409.AA03378@Sun.COM>
Date: 21 Sep 93 14:15:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1770


Ref: various.

	Stormbull cult has standards:
		1) No Chaos Allowed
		2) You must want to kill Chaos (No pacifists allowed)
		3) No such thing as small Chaos
		4) KILL CHAOS!

	The minotaur mentioned wants to kill Chaos (& Lunars) and is trying 
to persuade his friends to join him.  He also has the advantage of being big 
and strong and having great big horns growing out of a bull's head.  
Most Urox or Stormbull temples would find him eminently suitable for initiation.The fact that he is thick and smells would not be as great a disadvantage in 
joining the Stormbull cult as it might be elsewhere.  

Minotaurs with their looks and natural berserk rages may well be regarded by 
some stormbullies as natural avatars of their god, or at least having received 
his divine blessing.  It is doubtful whether a minotaur would be rejected if 
he applied to join Stormbull, however they might find it harder to progress 
to the very top of the cult due their limited intelligence and non-human 
nature.  Their might well become a Storm Kahn but would then be continually 
send on anti-chaos missions rather than becoming involve in the leadership of 
the cult.  

My advice is automatic acceptance for initiation, followed by basic training, 
then used by the cult as a deadly anti-chaos weapon.  They might well loan him 
armour and equipment (or money to buy it), they would attempt to teach him 
what limited magic he could understand (I recommend that detect enemy would be 
a good one because if he is berserk this is the only way to avoid him killing 
his friends!).  

PRICES OF MAGICAL ENCHANTMENTS

	While I rarely offer PCs the chance to buy enchantments I have found 
that it is useful to have a basic price structure.  The basic costs I use is 
between 1000 and 2000 Lunars per point of POW, depending upon the skill 
required.  Thus a one-use divine spell would cost 1000L per point but any 
enchantment would cost at least 1500L per point of POW required, whereas 
exotic enchantments or rare items would cost 2000L per point.  

	As characters can only have one powered crystal their value goes 
up as the square of the number of points (not necessary the POW).  Thus 
a Healing Focusing 4 xtal is 4 times as valuable as a healing focusing 2 xtal.
Again the base price of 1000 to 2000L is applicable depending upon the 
usefulness of the xtal (I would generally use 2000L per point squared unless 
the xtal was particularly weak).  

Examples:
One-use divine spell 1000 per point
Bladesharp 4 matrix  6000 L.
Heal 6 matrix 1000L (Heal 6 is rarer than BS4).
3 point spell focusing xtal (18,000L).
Combined 3 point spell resisting and healing focusing xtal (72,000L!!!!)
Spell resisting 1 xtal (2000L).
MP storage xtal or matrix 1500L per 5 points = 300L per point.  
Intellect spirit binding enchantment 3000L (4000L with spirit inside).

Of course the above prices are for PCs buying and subject to bargaining and 
demand.  If the PCs are selling they will be lucky to get more than half of 
the above prices (especially for the more expensive items).  
	I do remember the aweful price of of a 3 point spell reinforcing and 
3 point healing focusing xtal the party bought for the healer from Gonn Otha.
(She had just made the priesthood and had reusable resurrection, the party 
wanted to keep her sweet!)  NB. Do GMs out there remember to have the MPvMP
roll for resurrection, it is very hard to get high POW characters back, oh
and remember to remove the spell resisting xtals from the dead bodies before
the attempt.  Also because it is a ritual spell there will be some reenactment
of the Light Bringers Quest, if lots of ceremony is used this could get quite 
detailed and would be worth GMing.  THis is an idea which could be used with 
other rituals and would help add mythic flavour to games (Yes, yes, yes!).  

	-----
	Lewis
	-----


---------------------

From: STEVEG@ARC.UG.EDS.COM (Steve Gilham Entropy requires no maintenance)
Subject: NEW Vampire mailing list
Message-ID: <01H37DGBYN82001T20@UG.EDS.COM>
Date: 21 Sep 93 01:58:10 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1771

This is a public service cross-post

The vampire mailing list at math.ufl.edu is down.  Another exists 
at wizards.com, but the subscriptions haven't been transfered as 
yet.

To subscribe to the new list, send a letter with the text being
subscribe vampire-l 
to listserv@wizards.com

The default on the new list is that you don't receive a copy of 
your own mail.  If you want to, sent
set vampire-l mail ack
to listserv@wizards.com

Sorry if you know this already; but the changeover was abrupt.

Please distribute this message as you think fit

---------------------

From: S.Phillips@gla.ac.uk
Subject: Gosh!
Message-ID: <21_Sep_93_17:38:57_A11700@UK.AC.GLA.VME>
Date: 21 Sep 93 16:38:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1772

Gosh!
Hasn't the daily really taken off again. There is so much to think about.
I feel a bout of insomnia coming on..
Maybe one day I'll have something to add. But by the time I've digested
all the great stuff on here I'm at least a week behind.
I'll nevere make a Llankhor Mhy.
:'-(
Still, what a good read. Time for more cocoa I think. :-)
--Sam
  Counting Sartarian Sheep in Scotland.