From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 23 Sep 1993, part 1
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Sender: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
Precedence: junk
The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
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---------------------
From: jjm@zycor.lgc.com (johnjmedway)
Subject: but do the lunars surf?
Message-ID: <9309220602.AA03879@hp0.zycor.lgc.com>
Date: 22 Sep 93 06:02:21 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1785
I'M KIDDING! REALLY!!!!
>> From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
>> X-RQ-ID: 1723
re: moonboats
>> Make up your own answers to suit the scenario. We know they were used for
Of course, but a little outside data usually doesn't hurt. Remember, the
last big campaign I played in ended with the death of Argrath and an Arkat/
Eristi the Doubter-worshipping DarkTroll on the throne as the new Pharoah.
Always nice to know how many time the standard deviation out we are.
sidenote:
Another possible looking and leaping sync problem: are there other references
to the "High Council of the Empire" other than in the shoddy xerox Gloranthan
Encyclopaedia? Seems I started defining it before thinking it through
- more on that later.
>> I liked my original moon-rune-balloons, but a bulging circular sail would
>> look much the same... I hope they have some kind of sail structure, or they
>> wouldn't remind people of boats.
The hull/fuselage could still be of a boat-like design, but a sail would be
a nice touch. Maybe the "balloon" structures could be outriggers level with
the sides of the galley? ( where oars would have been )
dart wars:
>> > Are these wars to be semi-formally declared before they are started
>> > (our impression), or is the first "surfeit" of seafood a acceptable
>> > declaration of war?
>>
>> Read "Dune", and take that as your model. Noble Duke Leto still goes to the
Funny, I just had picked that book back up for a re-read...
Oh David.....
>> > Regarding the moon's "craters" being spiderweb-like lines: so these
BTW: The illo on the cover of the U.S. edition of Glorantha does not have
any picture of the moon on it - unless my eyes are even worse than I think!
>> Hope this has helped. Most of the above is my own opinion, for what that's
>> worth, so you can take it or leave it.
>>
>> Shame about your shift-key breaking!
Sorry for the e.e.cummings-esque post - lazy habit.
>> Loren?:
>> > If a myth is extremely consistent across a huge range of lands and
>> > cultures then it's almost sure proof of powerful, and RECENT, God
>> > Learner style meddling, or at best a well-organized mythic mainten-
>> > ance squad within the cult, which is still pretty darn scary.
>>
>> more of nick:
>> Yup. Best modern example is the Lunar Empire: p.d.s. to me!
Hmmm, Yanafal tarnils commissars in with the troops....
Pseudo-thought police...?
- probably too advanced, even with Clairvoyance spells ...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
| john_medway@zycor.lgc.com | Landmark Graphics Corp | 512.292.2325 |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------
From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Divergence
Message-ID: <930922070811_100270.337_BHB61-2@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 22 Sep 93 07:08:11 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1786
___________
Lewis said:
> While I agree about cult divergence etc. it is worth noting that
> Glorantha has only had 1600 years to diverge in. Look at Christianity:
> it has split all over the place and different factions have even used
> this as an excuse to kill each other. BUT most Christians would admit
> that they worship the same god as the other guys, even though they are
> the only ones who are doing it correctly!
OK, take Christianity from the mediaeval point of view. At the Dawning,
Year One, the Old Faith existed (Old Malkionism). Then some guy has a
vision of the Prophet and sets up a new religion which differs greatly from
the original caste-ridden, legalistic religion (Hrestolism). And several
hundred years after that there's a new and extreme form of dogmatic
monotheism on the world stage, which claims the same roots as the original
(Islam).
Now, the mediaeval Popes considered Jews to be steeped in wilful ignorance
of the Book, and Moslems to be vile heretics -- even if they do worship the
same god as the other guys (and not Mahound, Apollyon and Termagant - cf.
La Chanson de Roland, inter alia). But we tend to think of them as
something other than "different factions".
Nick says: that's how I see Malkionism v. Hrestolism v. the Jrusteli
Jihad's Monotheism (leaving aside the Arkati and Rokari for the moment).
And by the year 1500 (picking one out of a hat), our world was in much the
same place. You and I look rationally at the Religions of the Book and say,
"they're just offshoots from the same religion, and they all worship the
same god anyway". But I'm sure it'd feel different to be there.
Not that this is in any way a CREDO plug.
Evolution of cults: you seem to think a religion won't change much in
"just" 1600 years. Go have a look at Robert Graves on the Greek Myths.
Boggling shifts in emphasis over a much shorter period (esp. if you're a
rationalist Velikovskyian like me and think the "Ancient Mediterranean Dark
Age" is a non-starter).
Moreover, remember that there's an indistinct period of Godtime before the
religious forms that existed at the Dawning came into existence. Religions
were different before and after the Long Night (except, maybe, for the
Brithini). You've got more than "only 1600 years" (indeterminately more, I
agree) if you think (as I do) that (say) the Yggs' Islanders and Wenelians
weren't *absolutely identical* after suffering their disparate Godtime
traumas and formative events. If you disagree, and think both were "by the
book" Orlanthi, I can bring the tar and feathers with me for this upcoming
weekend of fun & frolics (gi's a mo to be sure I'm free). Wot no baboons?
BTW, anyone else spot the "Year -150" date for the LBQ on KoS p.270 ?
_____________
Greg F asked:
[Cult of Baroshi]
> What about his divine magic (assuming he gets enough worshipers)?
> I am thinking of Face Chaos, Earth Strength and Counter Chaos --
> a kind of Earthen Storm Bull.
Seems a heck of a lot for me, unless he gets *really* big. Start him off as
a traditional spirit cult -- you'll need 2x7x7 initiates willing to chuck
the baby a point of POW *just* to get the chance to sacrifice for one Rune
spell from him. Remember you can do the same for Storm Bull with little
chance of failing a worshippers x1% roll on D100 and losing your whole
investment (inc. the initiation POW point) -- and S.B. gives you two of the
three proposed Baroshi magics. Compare this newbie baby deity with some of
the Praxian Spirit Cults that have existed since time immoral, are
worshipped by loads of Praxians, and still provide just one Rune spell.
I think you'd do better off trying to get him adopted as a subcult of the
local Earth (or Babeester Gor?) temple. He could provide one interesting
new Rune spell to far more people that way, rather than operating as a
shaky and derivative variant of the Storm Bull.
Have your players quest to find out who his relatives were, then approach
their temples with this offer. It's less unbalancing that way.
-----
I think you are right on GS and the Monomyth. In WF#5 Greg introduced the
God Learners, saying that all of his notes were tremendously influenced by
their work. Now, he hates them and wants them to suffer. Looking at what
RuneQuest rules munchkins have inflicted on Glorantha's cults between then
and now, I can't say I blame him. Certainly, I hope the Monomyth continues
to get short shrift in future releases. It is an artificial way of looking
at the world, which doesn't mean anything to the people who actually
worship the gods the Jrusteli merely theorised about.
====
Nick
====
"I am not now, nor have I ever been, a God Learner"
---------------------
From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
Subject: Binding Shamans' Spirits
Message-ID: <9309220931.AA05463@Sun.COM>
Date: 22 Sep 93 09:37:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1787
On the subject of binding a shaman's spirit.
1 Create a shaman spirit binding enchantment (Requires INT & POW & CHA??)
2 Summon a discorporate shaman (his fetch allows him to resist this somewhat).
3 Cast dominate human or a variant on it to bind the spirit in the enchantment.
Unfortunately this course of action has drawbacks:
1 You might summon a *dead* shaman complete with 200 POW fetch (Ops!).
2 The shaman's body will die before too long and then his/her fetch will
come to join his/her spirit. Now what are you going to do with this
50 to 500 POW angry fetch which is hovering over your right shoulder sending
horrible spirits at you. Remember the shaman and his fetch know that when
you die all the spirits that you have bound are released.
3 Due to the hazards of binding experienced shamans with large fetches it is
only safe to bind lesser shamans who are of little practical use. And, even
these often have fanatical followers who will come and interrupt you just
when you are at critical points in rituals.
All-in-all it is rarely worth goin to the trouble of binding a shaman's spirit
when there is so little to gain (just a bunch of poxy spirit spells) and all
sorts of trouble that this can cause. I agree with Lord Sagan that these
activities are just not worth the trouble of a powerful sorceror or academic.
Unless, of course, it is the only way of ridding oneself of a smelly shaman
who is already making a nuisance of himself, then of course it can be the
only way of shutting the mumbling fool up.
Your Learned Friend
Tarka Jabig
---------------------
From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
Subject: Apologies to Lord Sagon
Message-ID: <9309221042.AA01302@condor>
Date: 22 Sep 93 10:42:25 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1788
Lord Sagon (Sorcerer of Lost Brythos, older than your god (certainly)) said:
>yes, we can take shaman souls into a matrix.
>So what?
>You have to assume that we want to! If I do that, then I have to want
>access to spirit spells, and inherent in my existence, my view of the
>world, is a disdain for spirits.
Sincerest apologies my Lord Sagon if I implied that you might desire the
use of the transient and ineffective spells of Spirit Magic. This was not
my intention. My original musing on this subject concerned the use of
bound Shamans for the purpose of exorcising troublesome spirits. One's
apprentices shall inevitably err in the casting of a summons which may
result in them being possessed by a ghost or demon. The sole worthy use
of a shaman is his aptitude at exorcism. It seems reasonable that one
should exploit this ability: keep the Spirit of a Shaman in captivity.
Or would some other more common spirit suffice for this purpose?
Additionally, depriving the primitive tribes of their witchdoctors would
stifle their learning of the spells of Spirit Magic thus allowing increased
"political" control by the worthy forces of Civilization.
As you so rightly pointed out: "reducing the capability of spirit worshippers,
makes good tactical sense".
At your service,
Paulos Danielus (Magician).
PS.
>This means that each one (shaman) can be convinced for the cost of a single
>Whell, to sell a permanent enchantment in an object, of a Spirit of Power,
>averaging 15 MP. This is a good buy.
Damn straight it's a good buy! I'll take three. With relish.
---
CW.
---------------------
From: eosgg@raesp-farn.mod.uk (Geoff Gunner)
Subject: High-falutin' jibber-jabber
Message-ID: <9309221418.AA19666@raesp-farn.mod.uk>
Date: 22 Sep 93 14:18:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1789
Gosh, isn't there a lot of abstract debate going on here ?
re: the talk about magic items. Look at the 'incomes' of various people.
The majority (let's say 90%) is going to go on keeping body and soul together.
How much does that leave for buying magic from scruffy adventurers ? As if you
didn't have enough on your mind. Next year the harvest may fail and a 3 pt.
MP storing matrix won't feed your family. In any trading situation you need
a demand; that won't be there, so the prices will drop. Watch your players
choke back a tear as their precious 12pt storage matrix gets sold for 400L so
they can eat for the next month.
Anyway, the best solution is: don't give your players any. Easy.
Religion: The rules are WRONG. A hangover (IMHO) from the early days of
role-playing. How it should be:
A culture has a religion. All members of that culture are initiated into
it at their coming-of-age. That cultural religion can have more than one
god present. An initiate can get any of the spirit magic that any of these
gods have. An initiate can forge a link with a 'patron' deity by
sacrificing 1 POW. Divine magic, intervention, etc. become available.
But the initiate still thinks of things in terms of cultural religion.
The old rules were nearly there. But by grouping things into cults, we
naturally think of the boundaries in that sense. NOT SO. think of things in
terms of cultures and cultural religions. For a start, the Seven Mothers (CoP)
becomes a lot more viable.
An example: In my campaign around Ironspike, the predominant culture is
Orlanthi, with worship of Orlanth, Ernalda, some Issaries, the law-speakers
are Lhankor Mhy, and a few Chalana Arroy and Eurmal. Lesser god/esses are
treated as saints in the catholic church. There is also another 'cultural
religion', that of Humakt. Humakti sever their tribal bonds, and are held in
awe by normal folk for such an action (blood == protection). Humakti *might*
worship at Orlanthi ceremonies, but it's not likely. Orlanthi would never
dream of going to a Humakti worship ceremony. And in the business of setting
up a temple are the Lunars <*ackkhh-spit*>.
I'm still wondering about temple statuses though - does the main temple in
Ironspike count as a (Minor) temple for ALL of the deities worshipped there ?
I'm inclined to say yes, so that the members of smaller cults can get more
rune spells (how many people actually worship Chalana Arroy ? Ao therefore
how many Major Temples?).
Down with High Fantasy - keep it dirty !
Geoff.
---------------------
From: yfcw29@castle.edinburgh.ac.uk
Subject: Orlanth/Worlath
Message-ID: <9309221641.aa14403@uk.ac.ed.castle>
Date: 22 Sep 93 15:41:07 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1790
-----------------------------------
Loren Miller writes Concerning Orlanth/Worlath, etc.
___________________________________
I was intrigued by the Prosopoaedia listing on Worlath as well. But maybe
we are missing the point a bit. Say all this did happen just as the
Sorcerers say. In order to create the myths, Worlath would have to
Heroquest them, that is actualy LIVE them. In the process he would
actualy become Orlanth in truth. Because the Heroquesting takes place
in the Godtime, the myths known about now would self-adjust to the "new"
mythic reality. In fact, the whole thing could be a self-generating cycle.
We only think of the godtime as being 'before' time because of a failiure
of imagination. It is actualy a simultaneous/separate paralell reality.
Why could not all the action in the godtime have been generated by
heroquesting.
Hey - Think about it. Say there was realy some kind of 'orriginal' mythic
reality. Lets call it the celestial court, for argument's sake.
All subsequent mythology could be layer upon layer of heroquesting. The one
unanswered question is : How does the pact of Time and Arachne Solara
fit into all of this?
________________________________
Boris writes write about the gods conception of themselves
________________________________
> At the risk of being branded a god-learner (yeah, right, along with
> everyone else on this list), I can't help but ask about the gods'
> conceptions of their own selves.
With reference to the Worlath example above. By heroquesting through and
living the myth of Orlanth, Worlath would literaly become Orlanth.
How would such a being view itself?
Is this making any kind of sense?
Help!
Simon Hibbs
---------------------
From: yfcw29@castle.edinburgh.ac.uk
Subject: Portrayal of gloranthan magic in RQ
Message-ID: <9309221649.aa15850@uk.ac.ed.castle>
Date: 22 Sep 93 15:49:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1791
Gloranthan magic in RQ.
Is Gloranthan magic accurately portrayed in RQ.
RQ presents some very neat and logical game mechanics for sorcery and such,
involving numerous skills formulae. The problem is, this makes it difficult
for PCs or GMs to innovate. OK, so the GLs re-engineered and systematised magic
into the three distinct types we know today. We know they liked nice tidy,
systematised myths too. But when I read some of the background material in
KoS and the Genertela book, I get the impression that the terms 'Sorcerer'
and 'Shaman' are far more nebulous concepts in Glorantha than they are in RQ.
This implies that we need to loosen things up a bit in the game, or at least
provide some guidelines for doing so, which fit with the gloranthan experience
of magic.
On a different, but related note. Call of Cthulhu has always had a very
sophisticated, atmospheric magic system. This consists of many summonings,
rituals and invocations. ELRIC! now also has a cast magic system, reminicent
of both RQ and Cthulhu. Yet NEITHER of these games has anything even remotely
resembling magical skills. No skills to learn, cast or manipulate spell of
any kind. Both magic systems successfuly evoke and enhance the richness of
the background, yet the game system mechanics are quick and inobtrusive.
A lot of ink has been spilled on the sorcery system, but it is a real pain
in the arse at the moment. I am planing on a campaign in Karse and I want to
have a fair number of expatriate westerners, including sorcerers, arround.
(In fact I am going to use the old Chaosium pack Thieves World for it). And
I want magic in general to be a bit more unpredictable than it is in RQ
at the moment.
Simon Hibbs
---------------------
From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham , via RadioMail)
Subject: re: Adjacent cultures; runes <> language
Message-ID: <199309221646.AA20136@radiomail.net>
Date: 22 Sep 93 16:46:22 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1792
>cpearce@nemesis.acs.unt.edu (Chris Pearce)
>In the Zola Fel river valley, complicated interactions occur. Primitive
>riverfolk live next to civilized Sun Domers. Nomadic beast riders raid
>Orlanthi villages. Some blurring of cultural boundaries must be occurring.
>"What's happening at the edges?" must be a valid question for players and GMs
>to ask.
You raise a good point, one that's always bothered me about Glorantha. Of
course, sometimes cultures _do_ blur (e.g. the Grazers as per KoS).
>Religion helps preserve cultures.
Probably the most dramatic in Glorantha, where religions have working and
unique magic.
>Another key seems to be caution and conservatism
I doubt this matters -- technologically superior cultures on Earth squash
other cultures -- the Chinese overcame the Mongols, despite being
conquered. (I still want to read Brian Fagan's book on this topic,
however...)
>From: gal502@cscgpo.anu.edu.au (Graeme A Lindsell)
> I think that the Western script may consist of pictograms built up of
>the various God Learner runes we're all so familiar with.
Yurk, another "runes are everything" theory of the sort I so dislike... I
think this one falls apart since there are so many more pictograms than
runes.
>From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
>1) Cost of spirit magic = 30 + 15 per point; so that the first point costs 45
>the second costs 60 etc. Thus Heal 6 costs 45+60+75+90+105+120 = 495 L!
Whoa, I'm travelling w/o my rules, but that resembles nothing I've seen in
RQ! 15 per point is a linear relationship...
---------------------
From: jarec@cix.compulink.co.uk (Simon Basham)
Subject: Magic and the spirit magic
Message-ID:
Date: 22 Sep 93 18:26:18 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1793
Personally I feel that normal (Spirit) magic shouldn't work on the spirit
plane. The magic dirives from the spirit plane and as such is overwhelmed
and insignificant when used there. Consider trying to use a water pistol
under water, water in a water abundant region is innefective, however take
a water pistol into the air, a water rare medium and you get a weapon that
works.
Spirit magic is closely tied to the Spirit plane, thats where it originates
after all. Now Rune magic, that's another story.
An idea that just occured to me is that if you learn spirit magic you are
effectively removing the spell from its point of origin. If you then try
to cast that spell in it's natural surroundings you are effectively
releasing it. i.e. if you cast Heal 1 on the Spirit plane then you lose
the spell and a new Healing 1 spell spirit is formed.
That being said why shouldn't natural earthly powers not be more effective
on the spirit plane. A critical first aid roll could reattach a spiritually
severed limb perhaps???
Well that's my 99p (inflation)
Jarec@CIX.Compulink.Co.UK
---------------------
From: clay@cool.vortech.com (Clay Luther)
Subject: Re: Orlanth or Worlath?
Message-ID: <199309221915.AA19595@cool.vortech.com>
Date: 22 Sep 93 09:15:39 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1794
> create fake gods more than once? I've heard rumors from the grapevine
> that GS is going around saying that Orlanth and Waha started out as
> mortal men (heresy!) and that PC heroquesters can end up going the
So, I guess Greg liked my opinions on the subject ;).
At Origins, I talked with Greg a little bit about the mortal beginnings of all
the gods, especially Orlanth. I posited that it was almost painfully obvious
from the mythology that Orlanth, like Arkat and Argrath, is a composite
of several mortal individuals. Greg smiled, and said he found that point of
view highly entertaining and interesting.
> Loren Miller internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu
--
Clay Luther clay@cool.vortech.com
Software Engineer Kodak Health Imaging Systems
Yelo's gift was a necklace of clam shells from the Ouel Stream strung on gut
string with a delicate knot of reeds which performed the role of pendant.