From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 30 Sep 1993, part 1
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Sender: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
Precedence: junk
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From: gal502@cscgpo.anu.edu.au (Graeme A Lindsell)
Subject: A Variety of Replies
Message-ID: <9309290752.AA16694@cscgpo.anu.edu.au>
Date: 29 Sep 93 17:53:09 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1861
Paul writes:
> Does anyone else besides me think of the God Learners as sort of hapless
>do-gooders, i.e., they are well-intentioned but unwise? I actually like
There aren't that many societies who see themselves as evil. Of course,
I don't see them as unwise: the destruction of the Jrusteli was just the
early God Learners, who'd made it as gods, eliminating unwelcome
competition. :-)
>casting the BRITHINI in the villain's role. Those old Talars have
>Spread Lies About the Enemy 2000%. Think about the Brithini's big enemy's:
>the Vadeli and the God Learners. Who else has such a bad reputation (barring
>Chaos)?
The Lunars? The Brithini themselves? The auto-critical Spread Lies About
Enemy is a nice feature, makes the Talars useful for something.
>There is only One earth goddess with six (or nine) faces
I think this may be the best way, just re-write the earth goddess cult.
I don't think any other cults have the same sort of progression.
Lewis writes:
>Why doesn't everyone have Warding on their house?
Good question. What about the house your Ernalda/Yelmalio family has lived
in for generations? Warding is permanent: those nomad raiders will explode
as they cross the threshold and the 20 points of warding
Warding is a real powergamers delight (Five Eyes temple anyone? Took us
three gaming sessions to clear out those bastards!). What's the best
way to limit it a bit more? Change its effect (attacks people in spirit
combat?), give it a limited but long duration (8 weeks?), or make it
more expensive?
Greg Fried writes:
>Ganesh (sp?), an elephant-headed Hindu deity. He is a god of scholars
>and merchants.
I think he might have been in the TV Mahabarata (sp?) I saw a couple
of years ago here. Great heroquest stuff as well!
Colin Watson on Dorastor:
> He said there were a couple of dozen pages of encounters which were so
>gross that he'd *never* be able to use them
See my review of Dorastor I posted here a couple of months ago: I made the
point that those gross encounters can't be used with the campaign given.
I think the problem was that Dorastor had always been promised (I have
an ad for Dorastor in the back of my RQ2 book!) as the grossest place
in Glorantha, so they felt obliged to provide the gross monsters. The
background info is excellent (I have a question for Ken below) and
the campaign very good, but I think the campaign just doesn't go with
the grossout stats. I would have liked to see the Lunar Trade mission
scenario that I think was originally meant to be included, with
Risklands as a separate pack (which I hope we'll see anyway)
My question for Ken: the drawing of "Arkat the Destroyer" on P11 (I
think): are the swords flanking the scene meant to be the Unbreakable
Sword? Why is Arkat human? Did the artist get inside info or is the
picture, as one of my correspondents suggests, just bad fantasy art?
Otherwise I really liked the illustrations in Dorastor. The intelligent
walktapus with the feather in his cap is a favourite!
One of my friends who reads this list suggested that I repost the
review to rec.games.rpg.misc to give it a wider audience. Good or bad
idea?
---------------------
From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: those pesky God-Learner liberals!
Message-ID:
Date: 29 Sep 93 08:12:52 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1862
Greg Fried here.
Paul:
Yeah, definitely. Half the time I think the God Learners were a bunch of
crude but smart, pimply-faced D&Ders who made their way into Glorantha and
exploited its nature to the max. The other half of the time, I think, hey,
maybe some of these GLs were (as you put it) do-gooders. They are arrogant
and informed enough to know what is best for all us unwashed masses, and so
go about terra-forming the myth-plane! Someone seends to give us a history
of the GLs that would allow for both these facets of what I also take to be
their possible character -- facets that were undoubtedly in conflict within
their own empire. To the rest of GLorantha, it would not matter whether the
'good' or the 'bad' GLs were carrying the day: when they overstepped
themselves, the cosmos crushed them. Kinda like what Earth will be doing to
us fairly soon. (<-- excuse exagerated eco-posing!)
===
Graeme:
I totally agree with your thoughts on Chaos. Hey, call me old-fashioned, but
I kinda balk at the extinction of the cosmos.
Mind you though, we are right and Chris is wrong IF and ONLY if it is true
that Glorantha is an infinitesimally rare blip of meaningfulness in the vast
void of Chaos -- and that Primal Chaos, Chaos gods, and Chaos beings
represent that Nothingness trying to assert itself upon Glorantha.
But let us consider a moment....
This MAY after all just be the ultimate propaganda ploy of the old
gods, who are hell bent on preserving the cosmic dispensation established in
their precious 'Compromise' (read: 'Conspiracy!' - please - just for the
sake of argument, don't you know...).
In that case, it is only our feeble lack of imagination, as well as our
pathetic fearfulness, that prevents us from grasping the more ... sophisticated
truth that Illuminates such as Chris offer us: that what we call Chaos is
simply the overturning of Law as WE know it! This overturning may
result in a world we cannot understand or survive, but the cosmos
won't END! What are we -- Armageddonists? How provincial. And if we
meditate upon the lesson that Chris-Eel grants us, we may realize that
we can LIBERATE ourselves from the atavistic anxieties we have concerning
our fate in the cosmos. And once we do that, once we see that Chaos
is not an Absolute Evil, we may learn how to make Chaos SERVE us --
the ultimate triumph over our barbaric fears! Ye Gods, man, don't you
realize -- it is all slander! Slander, I tell you! Wakboth came to us
as a liberator! It is only because mythstory belongs to the victors
that -- THWACK!
[An Uroxi eavesdropper sheathes his sword and shakes his head at the
sad fate of yet another victim of too much thinking -- a victim now
saved from himself and from the sly seductions of the Red Goddess by a
swift, merciful death, courtesy of the firm, unwavering hand of the Bull.]
All in fun, Graeme and Chris! But seriously, it's interesting just
how much of our contemporary RW relativism and nihilism gets
played out on the Gloranthan battlefield....
GF out.
---------------------
From: glidedw@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu (Godzilla's Home Boy)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 29 Sep 1993, part 2
Message-ID:
Date: 28 Sep 93 18:17:46 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1863
re: sorcerers in cults.
If the other self is not the only form that membership can take, then a
sorcerer could join a cult of some kind. if the diety takes form, from the
points of POW given it, then by giving a point, the worshipper taps into a
larger battery, that has normal god powers, ie, common divine spells and
personal spells. the sorcerer might fin themselves limited in their
ability to go beyond acolyte level due to time considerations, but still
be able to attain reusable spells. Having shamans and sorcerers, up to
acolyte level makes sense in an economic sense, as the use of POW as
money. they contribute, but the upper levels of demand that priests and
RuneLords require don't happen. Sorcerers would become very adept at
making enchantments for the cult, shamnans would summon powerful spirits
for them to add the total that the cult could teach in spirit magic
(wshere every point is a separate spell).
---------------------
From: ALUMNI107@camins.Camosun.BC.CA
Subject: Hermes and Argus
Message-ID: <01H3I46SLNRY000CAJ@camins.Camosun.BC.CA>
Date: 28 Sep 93 19:13:12 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1864
A previous respondent wrote :
> Hermes/Mercury also had a trickster aspect. He helped cover up one
> of Zeus/Jupiter's indiscretions; Zeus/Jupiter had turned into a
> white heifer in order to seduce a mortal he had taken to his
> liking, but Hera/Juno caught him at it.[cut] Now I may be mixing
> elements from two or more myths together here...
Close. Io was the daughter of Inachus, the founder of the city of
Argos. She was a priestess of Hera, and constantly under Hera's
scrutiny. Zeus desired Io, and changed Io into a white cow to deceive
Hera; however, Hera claimed the cow for her own and set the giant
Argus Panoptes (many-eyed) to guard it. Hermes stole Io by lulling
Argus to sleep and then cutting off his head. For this feat Hermes is
almost always referred to with the epithet 'slayer of Argus'.
Before Zeus could restore Io to human form, Hera caught on and sent a
gadfly which maddened Io with its stings so that she fled across the
world. Zeus finally caught Io in Egypt and restored her form. She bore
Zeus a son named Epaphus (from whom are descended the heroes Heracles
and Perseus). Io is supposed to be the Egyptian goddess Isis and/or
the Phoenician goddess Astarte; both these goddesses are oft portrayed
as a woman with cow's horns.
Your confusion comes from the story of Europa. Zeus became a bull to
carry off Europa (the granddaughter of Epaphus) to Crete. Zeus would
never become a heifer, since a heifer is 'a young (female) cow who has
not born a calf'. Wouldn't be able to enjoy women in his usual way if
he was a heifer.
Jeff Johnson; .sig agnostic
alumni107@camins.camosun.bc.ca
---------------------
From: eosgg@raesp-farn.mod.uk (Geoff Gunner)
Subject: Spirit Plane
Message-ID: <9309291029.AA02970@raesp-farn.mod.uk>
Date: 29 Sep 93 10:29:55 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1865
Further to the spirit plane being a slowly dissolving version of this one:
If an entity has just crossed over to the SP, then it's going to behave in
the same way as before. I've always assumed the SP can be manipulated by force
of will (hence using POW), so your entity will use skills just as before,
thinking that it is his/her competence in getting results, when really it's
*faith* that's doing it. An Example:
Bungo the Hairy has just died (alas), and finds himself on the SP. Bearing
down on him through the misty woodland is a Huge Demon ! Bungo snatches up
his axe (thinking: 'How did that get here?') and starts walloping the nasty.
Game Mechanics: Bungo attacks using his weapon skills. The Demon (a wise old
claw at this game) uses it's POW x 5.
Thus you can use the existing rules for spirit plane stuff, and there's
probably lots of interpretation of the rules that will enrichen this.
A thought; What's the ground like ? i.e. can spirits now use 3D to move
around in ? Nice thoughts here about evil baddies sinking into the ground,
angelic types soaring into the air, etc. And spirit guides. And ... I shan't
say any more for the time being, as it's likely my players are soon going off
into the SP on a sort of mini-siritquest. More on this later...
Some comments:
re Colin Watson - 1 POW loss per month seems good to me. And the results of
`eating' a spirit ? A POW gain roll, in the normal manner ? I would rule
only if the target spirit was completely destroyed. And if the spirit plane is
that nasty, then there's justification for all those cult psychopomps.
Some Questions: Ghosts and haunts are spiritual entities that haven't made the
crossover (for usual reasons). The mechanics of wraiths I'm unsure of - anyone
have a *good* justification for their effects ? Ghouls similarly - why do they
do it ? Unless they're really poxy on the spirit plane, and this is one way
for them to get out of the etherial rat race ? I would also like to see Demons
(of the Japanese style) in RQ, but haven't thought of a convincing explanation.
Yours spiritually, Geoff.
ps. Best use of 'Demoralise' seen: Players questioning a man over a murder;
to them he's obviously guilty but won't admit it. Whap, demoralise, 'It's a
fair cop, sniff, boohoo, I confess all'.
So: we now know how Miss Marple did it.
pps. RQ# 10 years old ? . I feel ancient.
---------------------
From: eosgg@raesp-farn.mod.uk (Geoff Gunner)
Subject: Religions
Message-ID: <9309291037.AA02973@raesp-farn.mod.uk>
Date: 29 Sep 93 10:37:23 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1866
re: Paul R.'s comments on One Earth Goddess; many faces - very nice. Would
like to see your write-up of it. I can also see this reflected very nicely
in the various subcults of Orlanth. Seems this leads to a male and female
principle being worshipped.
Thoughts ?
Geoff.
---------------------
From: pearton@unpsun1.cc.unp.ac.za (Dave Pearton)
Subject: Pantheistic trader gods
Message-ID:
Date: 29 Sep 93 13:53:37 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1867
To the person who asked about gods of merchants in pantheistic
cultures (sorry I forgot your name) I have the following:
Yacatecuhtli
(bless me! ;)
No actually this deity, whose name means: Lord Who Guides
(roughly) was the patron of (especially) travelling merchants in
Aztec culture. He was invoked whenever setting off on a
tradeing journey and had his own major festival where all the
merchants competed to provide the best and most expensive slaves
for sacrifice (nice people the Aztecs :).
Merchants occupied a very ambivalent place in
Aztec culture as they were out of the main religious/military
heirachy but they concentrated a great deal of the financial and
economic power in the later empire period, they were treated
with a great deal of suspicion but tolerated because of their
usefullness and economic power.
The Aztecs did have a seperate messenger god, Paynal (the
Hasty), but I'm not quite sure what his cult involved. I can
look it up if anyone is interested.
All this will come into my soon to be completed (hah!) campaign
setting in the Bliss of Ignorance. All those who don't like
Edward Lear and/or Aztec and Mayan culture will probably hate
it, but I'm haveing fun with it ;)
Yak
--
***********************************************************************
Dave Pearton * ....As I was saying before I
Biochemistry Dept. * was so rudely interrupted
University of Natal * by one of my multiple
Pietermaritzburg * personalities....
*
pearton@unpsun1.cc.unp.ac.za * Naked Lunch (W.S. Burroughs)
************************************************************************
---------------------
From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
Subject: More Spirit Plane ramblings
Message-ID: <9309291428.AA10721@condor>
Date: 29 Sep 93 14:28:01 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1868
SPIRIT PLANE
What's the spirit plane like? How does it work?
The trick is to reverse-engineer the game system: take the rules, spells,
campaign background etc that we know and extrapolate back from that to come up
with a coherent set of underlying processes to explain the evidence. In the
process we try to bend as few rules as possible...
Today we'll try to work Gods into the scheme of things:
_________________
Joerg Baumgartner (on spirit plane etc.):
>I am still somewhat reserved about this. The featureful Spirit Plane is
>rather the God Plane, where some mighty entity has morphogenetic (sp?)
>influence on its surroundings.
Just because the God Plane is featureful, why does the spirit plane have to
be gray and featureless?
I don't see the problem. IMO the "features" of the spirit plane have no
substance (SIZ), only appearance (which is constantly dwindling and not
under the control of any spirit). Also, such "features" are only spirits
of dead things - there would be no rocks, cliffs, mountains etc. because
such things do not (in general) have spirits. The main terrain features
would be plant spirits. A carpet of "spirit grass" would appear like
the ground - but there would be nothing to stop a spirit passing through
it (below ground level) or flying above it. (As I said before, plant
spirits stay relatively static because they don't have the inclination (INT)
to bother moving around.)
The God plane, on the other hand, definitely has substance which is
mutable by the creatures who dwell there as you suggest.
>The Rebirth myths for animal of Hunter cults like Waha and Foundchild,
[...good stuff about recycling spirits deleted...]
>That's the reason why I hotly disagree with the melting away of the POW
>of spirits, and INT as well.
I've no problem with this. If the Godess catches a fresh spirit soon enough
then she can recycle it before it deteriorates too much. Also, I reckon gods
of fertility etc would have Really Powerful spells which can reverse the
process (by converting the magical essence of the spirit plane back into
attributes INT, POW etc) or even create brand new spirits out of the
residual magic of the spirit plane. I see it kinda like the Mass/Energy
thing in the real universe - Characterisics/Magic Points are really the
same thing just in different forms. Spells like Create Familiar(stat),
Restore(stat) use this to permanently transfer/create attributes. Enhance
spells and Illusions are similar but temporary. In general it should take
*a lot* of MP to create one permanent attribute point. Only Really Powerful
entities would be capable of creating entire creatures out of MP (like
creating Mass out of Energy).
{Weird thought: Maybe the Gods maintain the Mundane Plane by simply using
powerful Illusion spells and a monumental effort of concentration. Each
God maintains the illusion of everything in its domain... hmmm}
BTW the reason I'm in favour of POW deterioration was to stop old spirits
becoming too powerful. Imagine a Bison spirit which has been reincarnated
through several generations. Its POW can only go up and up (assuming it wins a
few combats on the spirit plane each time it dies). Without my model its POW
would go through the roof after a millenia or so. Where does this POW come
from?
The problem is even worse when you consider shamans with fetches, as I
stated in a previous post.
How does reincarnation work in Glorantha anyway? Does the spirit remember
its past life? I reckon not, unless, perhaps, it is reincarated before its
INT dissolves.
[... would Frog Woman dissolve without worship...]
>Certainly not. Frog Woman is a powerful enough entity to form her own
>"God-Planish" froggy part of the Spirit Plane, and she has a multitude
>of unconscious worshipers - the frogs along the Zola Fel.
"God-Planish" is rather ambiguous. Is she on the God Plane or not? Is she
bound by the Compromise or not? If she's a real Goddess then she exists
on the God Plane and has nothing to worry about. If not, then she's just
another Big Spirit. IMHO.
The idea of "unconscious worshippers" supporting a deity seems a bit dubious.
Ok, Frog Woman priests will perceive frogs as "worshipping" Frog Woman
because they act like her. Really they're just acting like frogs. Unless
the frogs actually sacrifice MP or POW instinctively...?
>Theistic Glorantha lore says that a lot of animals are automatically
>initiated to the appropriate deity: spiders to Aranea, insects to
>Gorakiki, molluscs to swems, cats to Yinkin, birds to Vrimak or his
>offspring, fish to Golod, ... This means their spirits are transported
>into the appropriate realm after death, doesn't it?
I'm not familiar with all of these deities, but Spiders for example are
only automatically initiated to Aranea if they're *intelligent*. I assume
this means non-fixed INT spiders. Which excludes most.
Ok, unintelligent insects can be *lay-members* of Gorakiki, but this
doesn't count for much. IMHO gods are supported by worshipping *initiates*.
Otherwise strange situations could result: a zany sorceror decides to make
a spider into his familiar; the spider stops "worshipping" Aranea; and so
is plagued by spiders or reprisal ever after... ??
All for now.
___
CW.