From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 01 Oct 1993, part 1
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Sender: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
Precedence: junk
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---------------------
From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham , via RadioMail)
Subject: Re: Cult traits; enchanting heirlooms; divine/sorcery
Message-ID: <199309300626.AA06797@radiomail.net>
Date: 30 Sep 93 06:26:21 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1874
>From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
>You asked about a RL polytheistic god of trade. Here's one: Ganesh (sp?), an
>elephant-headed Hindu deity. He is a god of scholars and merchants. I have
>a little bronze figurine of him from Thailand stting on my computer for luck
My wife has a Ganesh in our library...
>Pendragon style cult stuff:
>This would be a good innovation, as has been said here before. Here' my
>thumbnail sketch of a system:
>- Develop a set of traits valid for Glorantha (it'd be nice if they were
>correlated to the runes...)
Runes? What do they have to do with cultural values? (Note that in my
version, religious traits are not the same across Glorantha...) Looks like
I'll have to post my PenDragon Pass list.
>- Determine a numerical range for values on the traits.
1-19 works pretty well in Pendragon...
>- Whenever a character acts/fails to act in accord with a trait,
>reward/penalize him or her with a POW check.
This seems pretty extreme to me. Not all worshippers are going to be "good"
worshippers, and there are other ways to handle this (in PenDragon Pass,
you have to make trait rolls to advance your cult standing).
In PenDragon Pass, it became apparent that under RQ3 rules, it's pretty
easy for a grandparent to become a priest (not strictly necessary, but it
makes it easier) and start enchanting stuff. It's very likely that there
will be several family-created heirloom items in a family. (Of course, it
may also be that the family won't trust your adventurer with them...)
>From: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu (Loren J. Miller)
> think we need an official ruling on whether sorcery
>and theism are incompatible in Glorantha for cultural reasons or
>because of meta-physical reasons that do not vary from culture to
>culture. For instance, if the sorceror transforms his alternate self
Chalana Arroy specifically allows many sorcery spells... I'd say it's
cultural (tho of course cultures are tied up with religion).
David Dunham * Software Designer * Pensee Corporation
Voice/Fax: 206-783-7404 * AppleLink: DDUNHAM * Internet: ddunham@radiomail.net
---------------------
From: mcarthur@fit.qut.edu.au (Mr Robert McArthur)
Subject: StormBull - Kill Chaos! Loath Chaos! Fear ?!?!?
Message-ID: <199309300758.DAA05640@fitmail.fit.qut.edu.au>
Date: 30 Sep 93 22:58:36 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1875
Clay Luther writes about StormBulls:
>
> Another note on fear and loathing: I have an especially hard time convincing
> my players, especially the SB player, that they would have fear and loathing
> about anything, especially chaos. The SB player approaches chaos with the
> simple mentality of "it must be destroyed" but this is simply a learned
> response from the *player* and not from the *character*. The shallowness of
> the response is saddening; the player doesn't really understand why his
> character would want to destroy chaos. He does not understand the fear and
> loathing aspect of Glorantha.
Actually, I believe that SBers are probably one of the few god-worshipping
peoples (:-) who need not have the particular *fear* of chaos that is part
of the rest of many Gloranthan mythologies. This is due to:
1. Stormbull overcame the devil, thus setting up an enormous advantage for
his worshippers. Being such a integral part of the (perhaps GL inspired)
myths of the world, it makes the SB's place even stronger. They have a
much better chance of *knowing* they can win. (Some people may say that
SB didn't do it, the spike and cosmos did. This point is not often made
near a SBer for some reason...)
2. In the Cults of Prax writeup, SB has the runs of mobility, beast and death.
It would be facile to say that those beings associated with the death rune
don't fear it,but I believe it gives them a whole new way of looking at life
and, especially, what happens after death. I certainly don't think that I
could imagine myself (in 1993, Earth) knowing what it *really* feels like
to play a character who is a rune lord of a death-rune-weilding deity in
an existance where gods can (almost totally) manifest; and where life after
death is proven (to the simple minds of almost every SBer at least) by
ancestors et al.
3. In CoP, it says that SB will pursue the souls of his worshippers slain by
chaos up to the pits of entropy itself thereby giving those slain
by chaos a *much* better chance of "living" through it and joining SB in
his immortal battle (etc etc. They all seem to have one :-) No other cult
writeup that I have seen even mentions such a benefit (They don't need it
'cos they're too busy running my character would say ;-)
Therefore, I don't think that SB worshippers have nearly as much to worry
about as other mortals wrt chaos. Loathing yes. Fear, well, perhaps some
but tempered by a knowing and *trust* in SB. God-f(e)aring people in Glorantha
are more interested in their souls, I maintain, than their current existance.
Of course, they still have to live... I would maintain that most godworshippers
in Glorantha have faith, the strength of which is like that of the martyrs and
saints. They *know* what they have to do here. They *know* where they are
going if they do what they are supposed to. Personally, I find it hard to
put myself in that exact situation.
So, (at last - phew!) I think your PC may need to feel a bit more loathing
(yeh! slaughter chaos! kill lunars! drink! shout! fart! throw up! sleep..sssszz)
but not, particularly, fear.
Robert
---------------------
From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: Stafford speaks!
Message-ID:
Date: 30 Sep 93 08:14:14 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1876
Greg Fried here.
Well, Mike, my appetite is whetted. What more can I say?
===
Graeme:
In my campaign I have a male god, Ezroth, who goes through life-cycle
progressions (only two tho) like those you discuss for the Earth goddess.
Ezroth begins in his youth as a god of the Sea Storm. He falls in love with
an Earth goddess, whom he saves from drowning in the Chaos Wars by holding
her above the waves. To do so, he must give up his Stormishness. In cult
terms, this is entering into the husband aspect. Ezroth and his wife are the
gods of islands.
BUt to continue with the faces of the divine theme, some meta-pantheistic
theology (eg, Hinduism) sees ALL divinities as aspect-expressions of the One
Holy Whatever (Atman, Godhead, etc). Not just Earth as maiden, mother, crone,
avenger, etc, but X (Glorantha?) as Storm, Sea, Air, Darkness, Earth, Death,
Life, etc, plus all the modifications of this etc! SOOOOOO ... with the
proper consciousness regarding Glorantha, could you shift from Yelmalio to
Zorak Zoran, like it was argued one could shift from Voria to Barbeester Gor?
Maybe a tad tougher, but... in principle? What about that Arkat fellow,
hm? (OK, OK, Humakt, not Yelmalio. Makes the point even better!)
===
Colin:
Lots of really nice thoughts on the spirit plane. I had given a spiritual
residue to inanimate things too, but you argue well against it. I am
still not utterly convinced, since why SHOULDN'T rocks and streams
have spirits, as all good animist believe? Let's see more of this; the
more thoughts on a rich ecology and economy of the spirit plane, the
better.
Something else:
Now why, other than that we are told so, should we assume that the God Plane
and SPirit Plane are different 'places'? Aren't gods (especially if you take
the example of Kygor Litor) just massively evolved spirits? If you read
shaman literature, seems to me they move around on a place like the god/myth
plane too. As I see it though, they are like garbage-pickers of the
other-world. They stay out of the way of the big myths and deities, and so
are left largely unmolested in their collecting the flotsam and jetsam of the
spirit world. Here's an idea: the Red Goddess is just one mongo shaman(ess),
binding ('marrying') one god-spirit after another into her collection!
As to the issue (sorry: I forget who first raised it) of animal spirits
getting sucked up by vacuum-like animal gods as soon as they die:
OK, even assuming animals are automatically connected ('initiated') to
their god-spirit avatar, why should they ALL directly zap off to that
divinity immediately after death? Some might get lost, others get
curious and wander around so that shamans can capture them. And maybe
they can be bushwacked on the way to their gods. Why allow one
sentence in one official RQ publication to sap all life (or death) out
of the spirit plane, just to make things neat? With some thought, the
spirit plane could become a place of texture and adventure and
narrative, not just a warehouse for game-system-generated entities and
suppositions. End of tirade! Colin, keep up the good work.
OK, just to put my fat in the fire: isn't it just a God-Learner
neatification to assert the distinctness of god- hero- and
spirit-plane? I say they are all there together -- assuming that
'together' means a heck of a lot more than I care to go into at this
hour.
GF out.
---------------------
From: mcarthur@fit.qut.edu.au (Mr Robert McArthur)
Subject: Frog Woman - the Jumpin' Jive
Message-ID: <199309300818.EAA05823@fitmail.fit.qut.edu.au>
Date: 30 Sep 93 23:18:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1877
Colin Watson writes:
> The idea of "unconscious worshippers" supporting a deity seems a bit dubious.
> Ok, Frog Woman priests will perceive frogs as "worshipping" Frog Woman
> because they act like her. Really they're just acting like frogs. Unless
> the frogs actually sacrifice MP or POW instinctively...?
Hmm, as I see it (IMHO) there were no frogs until something made them and Frog
Woman would seem to be the choice. Kyger Liquor is the mother of Trolls,
Frog Woman is the mother of frogs. So, they don't act like frogs except in
as much as they act exactly like she does. The frogs aren't supporting the
deity as much as *being* the deity. If you managed to kill off all the
frogs (perhaps only all the frogs in Zola Fel) then Frog Woman would "die"
as well.
Robert
---------------------
From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
Subject: Bulls and Earth Goddesses
Message-ID: <9309301056.AA02021@Sun.COM>
Date: 30 Sep 93 11:03:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1878
Ref: X-RQ-ID: 1864 (Jeff Johnson)
All that marvellous Greek Mythology about Zeus turning into a Bull to
chase Io the heffer in order to have his way with her on the sly.
And, later how he carries off her *daughter* (O.K. Granddaughter) as a bull
(and presumably has his way with her too!).
It all reminds me of how Orlanth and Stormbull (both thunder aspects of the chief god) become *husbands* of Ernalda (Wow, she must be close to a world
record in the number of husbands she has had! 7+). Then later on Stormbull got together with Eiritha (Europa?) to produce Waha the chief God of Prax (Who was
Europa's son and what did he become king of *Crete?*).
Another twist in the myths is that Prax is very similar to Egypt with
desert wastes cut by a fertile river valley. Pavis is fairly similar to Luxor
mid-way down the river and the original capital. On one bank of the river are
the tombs and ruins which are larger than the actual city of the living.
A final speculation is that the Pyramids and the Block perform similar
functions (they both guard the dead). Notice that the Law rune is a pyramid!
A final mythic similarity is the cattle horns on Io's and Eiritha's
human head. Obviously the myths are slightly confused, but that is the nature
of mythology (nothing absolutely defined).
All-in-all, it looks like another place where Greg borrowed heavily fromour own mythology. And, yet another place where the bloody Jrusteli Monomyth
completely confuses everything. Rather than the Chieftain/Storm God (Umath)
using his Bull aspect to have his way with Ernalda and then later using the sameaspect to seduce her daughter (already with animal inclinations), we have two
completely different gods Orlanth and Stormbull. Now we have both of them as
husband protectors of Ernalda and the Stormbull has husband of Eiritha.
Total confusion caused by the GLs who combined and confused two or more similar gods just to fit in with their precious monomyth. Also read Terry Pratchet's
Small Gods to find how they evolve in specialized niches and then (if they are
lucky) either broaden and grow or claim the entire niche as their own. Thus
Blind Io is the God of Thunder and jealously gauds his niche (but lightning
bolts are O.K. for other gods to use). Also see how believe defines the nature of the god (a bad sculptor carved the goddess of wisdom with a penguin on her
shoulder thus everyone believes her messenger is a penguin and thus it is).
So if everyone believes that Stormbull is this great big dumb Ox/Bison
who goes arround as the desert storm wiping out Chaos, thats what he becomes.
Much better to be Orlanth who everyone believes has various aspects (sub cults) which embody his various aspects. Thus one day he is the wise chieftain
(worshipped by chieftains), the next day he is adventuring killing Chaos and
trolls (worshipped by adventurers and people who have troll problems), the
...
Thus Orlanth has more worshippers and gets to be more powerful, but Stormbull
has his specialized niche and will have a fanatically loyal following while
Chaos exists.
Have fun with these heresies
-----
Lewis
-----
---------------------
From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
Subject: Warding; Spirits
Message-ID: <9309301327.AA01404@condor>
Date: 30 Sep 93 13:27:34 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1879
James Wadsley (on warding):
>Wardings don't have to be on all the time. I did like your exploding
>boy example though. Once you pull up the warding stakes - you
>get the spell back.
Does this work for initiates? I was under the impression that only Priests
could get the spell back when the stakes are removed. (conditionally
reusable for Priests, one-use for initiates?). When the Priest puts the
stakes back he has to re-cast the spell (which means he has to re-learn it).
This makes it slightly inconvenient for home-defence.
Graeme A Lindsell (also on warding):
> Warding is a real powergamers delight
Agreed!
> What's the best way to limit it a bit more?
It's an enchant ritual, right? So make it cost POW to cast it (like every other
enchant spell). This would dissuade your average bumpkin from casting it on
his barn (he loses POW even when he fails the enchant roll).
The caster could add additional conditions to avoid the Exploding Boy Syndrome.
IMHO Warding is a throwback to the days of RQII before Ritual Magic was
rationalised - it's definitely open to abuse.
(on Dorastor):
> See my review of Dorastor I posted here a couple of months ago
Yeah, I remember it. I even mentioned it to my GM before he bought Dorastor.
We laughed and thought "Surely it can't be any grosser than the normal
Published stuff". We thought wrongly.
Glad to hear that the campaign background stuff is better. :-)
____________
Geoff Gunner (on the Spirit Plane):
>Bearing down on him through the misty woodland is a Huge Demon !
I like the description - very evocative.
Your example of Bungo creating an axe through an act of Faith reminds me
of the "Dreaming" skill in Call of Cthulhu.
However I have trouble reconciling this with my vision of the Spirit Plane.
What's the axe made of? How is it created? What use is it in the Spirit World?
Surely the axe cannot damage the Demon - the Demon has no HP.
I think this makes matters a bit too easy for those recently deceased. They
should be confused when they first enter the Spirit Plane. They may have to
learn new skills to survive. Physical skills are useless in the spirit world.
Only Magic and strength of will (POW) are of practical use. Brainless
hack-merchants should have real trouble on the Spirit Plane.
Or was your axe example a metaphor for spirit-combat?
Some spirit-weapon ideas were bandied-about on the Daily a few weeks ago; but
these are very different skills from physical weapon attacks.
I think physical combat is more suited to the God Plane.
>A thought; What's the ground like ?
The "ground" is a haze of static plant spirits. Where there are no plants,
there is no ground (eg. in a desert. Navigation could be quite tricky without
any visual cues).
>it's likely my players are soon going off
>into the SP on a sort of mini-siritquest. More on this later...
Sounds interesting...
>re Colin Watson - 1 POW loss per month seems good to me.
This was a monstrously arbitrary decision on my part. I started with 1 POW
per year and decided it wasn't quick enough, so 1 per month it was!
I reckon the deterioration should be different for different types
of creatures: eg. Wraiths POW should deteriorate *very* rapidly (same for
any would-be undead), but wraiths CON should dissolve more slowly than for a
normal human spirit (1 per month again?).
>And the results of
>`eating' a spirit ? A POW gain roll, in the normal manner ?
Yup, I'd say so. Regular spirit combat is the best way to survive on the
spirit plane.
>I would rule
>only if the target spirit was completely destroyed.
MP completely destroyed, yes; but not POW. Destruction of POW should be quite
difficult.
I see POW as an attribute which "attracts" MP from the background pool in the
spirit world. The bigger the POW, the faster it attracts MP, and the more it
can hold.
Ghosts, wraiths, ghouls. I, too, would like to hear poeples views on how
these creatures come into being, and why they do what they do.
And any views as to how elementals fit in would be appreciated too.
___
CW.
"Old spirits never die, they only lose their APP..."
---------------------
From: USERHKW9@um.cc.umich.edu
Subject: Warding Limitations
Message-ID: <26278886@um.cc.umich.edu>
Date: 30 Sep 93 14:11:44 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1880
Graeme wondered,
Good question. What about the house your Ernalda/Yelmalio family has lived
in for generations? Warding is permanent: those nomad raiders will explode
as they cross the threshold and the 20 points of warding
Before you wade to deeply into hashing up the warding spell just use the
RQII version limited to 4 points. You won't have to spend so much time
mopping the floor after the nomads attack. What you might then end up with
after generations is a home in which every room, stable and outhouse is
warded. Careful nomads might dispel smaller wardings or batter the corners
out of weaker buildings (like the out house) to get at the warding rods.
Josh Wright
"When the attackers approached the houes they were not sure wether
Gunnar was at home...Thorgrim the Easterner climbed on to the roof. Gunnar
caught sight of a red tunic at the window. He lunged out with his halberd
and struck Thorgrim in the belly. Thorgrim dropped his shield, lost his
footing, and toppled down from the roof. He strode over to where Gizur
and the others were sitting.
Gizur looked up at him and asked, 'Is Gunnar at home?'
'Thats for you to find out,' replied Thorgrim. 'But I know that his
halberd certainly is.'
And with that he fell dead.
Detect enemies? from Njal's Saga
---------------------
From: maf1@cornell.edu (Mark A. Foster)
Subject: RE: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 21 Sep 1993, part 1
Message-ID: <40615.maf1@cornell.edu>
Date: 30 Sep 93 16:16:28 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 1881