From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 15 Oct 1993, part 3
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Sender: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
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---------------------
From: younger@mprgate.mpr.ca (Joe Younger)
Subject: Re: resurection
Message-ID: <199310142141.AA22546@mprgate.mpr.ca>
Date: 14 Oct 93 21:34:28 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2004
Richard C. Staats (staats@MIT.EDU) asks:
>
> Graeme asked an excellent question about resurrection last time,
> namely how to reasonabley limit its effectiveness? The underlying
> question is how to bring back "Death's sting"?
>
Another interesting question is who feels "Death's sting", the PC or the
player?
It would seem to me that most cult members would want to join their god in some
sort of "eternal communion" rather than have to live longer on the material
plane. That would seem to me to be a great selling point to the cults (i.e.
a guaranteed afterlife). At the point of death, especially if it happens in
some way that is related to cult guidelines (e.g. a stormbull dies fighting
chaos), the PC has "made it". They are now with their god. To come back, they
had better have a very good reason for it, and it should relate to one of
their gods priorities on the material plane. Otherwise, they would be giving
up what they strove for all of their lives. (As an aside, this may also be
a good reason for hauntings, etc.).
So, for a resurrect to work, it would seem that the PC and his god would have
to want it to work. If not, CA might not be making any friends by bringing
people back who didn't want to come. (would this be breaking the compromise?)
This may mean that fewer PCs get resurrected, but it opens up more role playing
for any who do. It also makes resurrection a wondrous thing again. One could
even make resurrection a temporal spell that "ends" once the goal has been
accomplished, at which time the character can "die in peace." Personally tho,
I don't think I like that idea. I would rather let the character continue to
serve his/her god on the material plane until they are again called to serve in
the afterlife.
This sort of motivation would also work for shamans. Altho' I would guess that
sorcerers would want to come back. I wonder if CA would want to bring them
back????
just my $0.02,
Joe Younger
younger@mprgate.mpr.ca
---------------------
From: cjl@carmenta.se (Carl-Johan Lundell)
Subject: Physical detoriation during death. Cult weapons for SB's.
Message-ID: <9310141539.AA13005@carmenta.se>
Date: 14 Oct 93 17:39:50 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2005
Physical detoriation during death (Rich Staats in X-RQ-ID: 1987)
You suggest to have a physical detoriation similar to aging to take place
when a character is dead. I thought there already were a detoriation even
more severe than what you suggest. I have read somewhere that a dead character
loses 1D3 STR, CON, DEX and APP for each day being dead. I don't have my books
available now so I cannot check it. Maybe this isn't the official resurrection
rules?!? This is how I always have ruled it, maybe I've been wrong? Anyway,
there have been no problems with too easy resurrection in my game. I completely
agree that resurrection should be made expensive in direct ways as you suggest
and that the healers should be discriminating about who is resurrected (and
certainly more than just a bit, e.g. the CA's in my game would never ever
resurrect a Malkioni adventurer!)
Cult weapons for SB's (Mike Leseth in X-RQ-ID: 1989)
You ask about the cult weapons for Storm Bull worshippers. The best I can
think of would be Head Butt! No, seriously the SB's are tribe-oriented and
in different parts of Glorantha different weapons are preferred. I recommend
that you look in the Player's Book of the Genertela box. For the different
cultures you can see what their cultural weapons are and these should be
the most appropriate for your character to strive to master. SB followers
are the great warriors of their tribes and should absolutely be encouraged to
achieve mastery of several weapon skills. I would also encourage you to go
for the heavier weapons, 2-handed, to reflect the aggressive attack-is-more-
important-than-defence mentality of SB's. Hope this was of some value for you
Mike.
Best regards,
Carl-Johan Lundell
Sweden
---------------------
From: clay@cool.vortech.com (Clay Luther)
Subject: Re: Elves and others
Message-ID: <199310150117.AA08818@cool.vortech.com>
Date: 14 Oct 93 15:17:22 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2006
Graeme A Lindsell sez about my sig:
> >Clay Luther clay@cool.vortech.com
> >Bloodletter methodically slew every tainted child in the village, shutting out
> >the screams of their mothers. He told himself "I am saving all creation today."
>
> I can guess what you've just been GMing. I won't name the scenario for fear
> of spoilers, but how many people did massacre the children and/or the village?
> When we played we found we couldn't do it, though it was poor roleplaying:
> I'm sure that our characters would have had no trouble.
24 dead so far by one hand. The Yelmalion initiate merely said "Boy, this is
*grim*." and did not take part in the slaughter. It is still up in the
air about what to do about the remaining villagers (the Arroyan wants to take
the women to Horn Gate) and how to track those that have escaped into the
wilderness.
On a related note, the maps of the Black Rock Bluff area in RoC, SC, and SotB
do NOT MATCH AT ALL. Why's that?
--
Clay Luther clay@cool.vortech.com
Macintosh Software Engineer Kodak Health Imaging Systems
Bloodletter methodically slew every tainted child in the village, shutting out
the screams of their mothers. He told himself "I am saving all creation today."
---------------------
From: clay@cool.vortech.com (Clay Luther)
Subject: Re: theories; resurrection
Message-ID: <199310150124.AA08849@cool.vortech.com>
Date: 14 Oct 93 15:24:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2007
Colin Watson sez:
> IMHO RQ GMs are *meant* to be God Learners. It seems reasonable to me
> for GMs to seek a coherent theory to rationalise the nature of magic etc in
> their campaigns. It really helps to have a framework to base ideas on, and
> I think that the rules should provide one. Obviously the characters shouldn't
> know how the framework operates (or even that it exists) but I think the GM
> is entitled to know.
Well, I have to disagree, rather strongly even. As a Glorantha GM, I make every
attempt to NOT think like a God Learner, or to notify myself in strong terms
when I do (or need to). I practice a sort of self-induced confusion (perhaps
GMing Trance) before entering a Glorantha game specifically so that my
scientific/God Learner instincts are submerged beneath my Myth Bearer
personality.
GMs are not God Learners.
Munchkins, Anal Retentives, and Power Gamers are God Learners.
--
Clay Luther clay@cool.vortech.com
Macintosh Software Engineer Kodak Health Imaging Systems
Bloodletter methodically slew every tainted child in the village, shutting out
the screams of their mothers. He told himself "I am saving all creation today."
---------------------
From: gal502@cscgpo.anu.edu.au (Graeme A Lindsell)
Subject: Resurrection and Chalana Arroy
Message-ID: <9310150128.AA09642@cscgpo.anu.edu.au>
Date: 15 Oct 93 11:29:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2008
Graeme Lindsell here:
David Dunham writes:
>So back to our city's 50 priests, probably only one is a High Healer.
Fine, let's give her 20 years experience and 3 Resurrects then? Enough
for there to be one available for random deaths of rune levels.
>So I think Resurrect tends to be rare because Healers are rare, and there's
>no real problem. I dislike your other solutions.
Doubtful. The given percentage of High Healers in scenarios is high,
in the one city is high, and even in KoS is high. In the listing of
Specialized cults (p.255) the first thre are Issaries, Lhankhor Mhy
and Chalana Arroy. This is the same order as on p246, and since it
isn't alphabetical it implies these are the three most common of
these cults. The given example of a specialized priest on that page
is CA as well. I don't see where it says that CA is much less
common than the other specialized Lightbringer cults.
I still think a permanent POW loss associated with Resurrect would be
best. It is a permanent unnatural effect, which usually requires
some POW (Note: Sever Spirit and other killing spells are permament
_natural_ effects - people naturally drop dead all the time)
>Hopefully the analysis above suggests the answer: there _is_ no nearby
>Chalana Arroy temple. (It's true that Chalana Arroy appears in the Orlanth,
>Yelm, and Pamalt pantheons, but I doubt she's real popular in any of 'em.)
Nope. The Queen is Gundrun the Golden, wife of Hakon the Swimmer, High
King of the Bilini (Talastar Papers, P12). In the Genertela book it
gives Talastar a population of 200,000 and claims that the Bilini are
the largest tribe in the southern part of Talastar. If a relatively
large Orlanthi kingdom doesn't have at least a minor Temple to one
of the Lightbringers than I doubt any exist anywhere. She also has
a Lunar Dee Zola priest as a personal physician.
To take the point one step further, it's says that she was crippled
by Wasting Disease (affects Str), not Creeping Chills as I said earlier.
_Ernalda_ gets Restore Health (Strength) (She get Restore (Con) too). In
the current RQ3 rules Gundrun would have been healed by them as easily by
Chalana Arroy ie a group of 10 Ernalda acolytes could have sacrificed
for 1 point of Restore (Strength) each, and she'd be fine.
Which was my original point: The current RQ3 rules don't reflect
Glorantha.
Colin Watson writes:
>I'm afraid I won't be much help in this 'cos I don't like resurrection
>in principle.
Well I'd be inclined to remove it but KoS p255 says that CA healers
are sometimes able to raise the dead (but not every 4 days like the
current rules allow). Since Greg still thinks they can raise the dead
I think the rules should reflect it.
>For starters, I think it should be in the domain of Death gods (I don't
>see resurrection as healing, I see it as power over Death, so I don't see why
>CA gets it at all). I think Death cults would only use it in *exceptional*
>circumstances.
I think it was her reason to be on the Lightbringers Quest: she was trying
to discover how to raise the dead. I can see your reasoning concerning
Death and resurrection, but the only _real_ Death God - Humakt _ would
never allow it!
Loren Miller writes:
>It's obviously included for game balance, not for the fiction. As a
>game construct, do you think it's really worthy of fixing with
>complicated rules? Why not just write more in the Chalana Arroy cult
>section so that you have an idea of what the CAs require in return for
>such a valuable gift. Currently it is too easy for a GM not totally
What part of the game does it balance (seriously)? Yes, I do think
it's worth fixing, I don't see the point of having rules that don't
reflect the nature of the major game world, though I accept that
many people don't GM in Glorantha.
As for it being a valuable gift, a three point re-usable spell
isn't that valuable. I think the CA's are just being greedy,
since they are the only source. If they are meant to act as though
it is very difficult and expensive for them, then it should be
difficult and expensive for them!
>I also think that the RQ stats are logarithmic/exponential. To those
>who think that MPs disprove this, I only have one answer: Fatigue.
>Strength is definitely logarithmic, and yet fatigue is based linearly
>off it. Why shouldn't this also be true with POW and MP?
Fatigue is a good example that the RQ3 designers went thinking very
well IMO. I wouldn't use it as a demonstration of anything. Strength
may be logarithmic, but I don't see any real evidence any of the other
stats are except for the resistance table: see the many Con*5 or
Dex*5 rolls to see linear relations between stat and ability.
>Anyway, the point is that the RQ3 stats past the human range are
>bolloxed and we need to normalize them. But this has already been
>discussed on the RQ4 playtest group. If you want to continue it,
>please take it thataway.
If it comes alive again we should. I'll take the resurrect discussion
there since I think it is more a rq4 thing as well.
Rich Staats has some nice points re resurrect.
Graeme Lindsell a.k.a gal502@huxley.anu.edu.au
---------------------
From: drcheng@sales.stern.nyu.edu (David Cheng)
Subject: Humakti 'Death Song'
Message-ID:
Date: 15 Oct 93 05:18:06 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2009
When David Hall was crashing here on the last leg of his world tour,
one of the things that we discussed was just this Humakti
beserker thing.
Being a Humakt loyalist (with a soft spot in my heart for ducks: see
the RQ-Con dispatches), I like how his idea has evolved. This is over a
year old, but I think it's the latest version of what we agreed would be
appropriate, yet still quite flavorful:
DEATH SONG
3 points, non-resuable
Once sacrificed for, the Sword of Humakt can decide that this will
be his or her final battle. The effects are similar to the Storm Bull
spell 'Beserk,' but with some important differences. After invoking
the Death Song:
* All CON rolls are automatically made
* the invoker is immune to incapacitation, shock, unconsciousness, or
exhaustion
* all poisons do minimum damage
* all Attack and Parry chances are doubled
- the invoker is immune to any type of healing (this is serious Death
magic)
- at the end of the _battle_, the invoker irrecoverably dies
The GM has artistic license to decide what the 'battle' is defined as.
It might be as short as a few melee rounds, i.e. a single combat
encounter during an adventure. It might be a whole battlefield
engagement lasting several hours. [I always like to think how magic
will affect tabletop minis battles]. However, when GM decrees the
'battle' is over, Humakt claims the soul of his Sword, even if the
warrior manages to be totally unscathed.
Obviously, this is the "glorious way to die" preferred by many Humakti
Swords. If you know that you won't be walking away from this fight,
you might as well let them know that it's a _Humakti_ they're bringing
down, eh?
Imagine the effect upon the morale of the troops: advancing toward a
legion of Humakti, they begin to hear all the commanding officers sing
of the glories awaiting them in Humakt's Hall in Hell...
RuneQuest-Con update:
* We are just short of 100 paid registrants.
* I know I've been promising you all a full bulletin for quite a while
now. Look for it here by this weekend. I mean it this time! I've
got an outline written up and everything.
Best,
*David Cheng drcheng@sales.stern.nyu.edu / d.cheng@genie.geis.com
Ask me about RuneQuest-Con! (212) 472-7752 [before midnight]