From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 25 Oct 1993, part 2
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Sender: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
Precedence: junk
The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
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RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld)
---------------------
From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: Damar, god of riddles
Message-ID:
Date: 22 Oct 93 16:58:19 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2085
Greg Fried here.
Since there has been talk of riddles lately, I thought I'd share the cult of
Damar. Be warned that my campaign is only pseudo-Gloranthan, and so some
gods and mythological events will be unfamiliar or distorted. Be that as it
may, I think this cult can be readily appropriated.
DAMAR
The Lucky Bastard
God of Jokes, Riddles, and Outrageous Fortune
I. MYTHOS AND HISTORY
A. BEFORE TIME
In a stroke of Luck that was yet profoundly Fateful for the history of the
Cosmos, the deity Damar was born when a beam of Sun-light reflected off the
dawning Moon and plunged into the churning whirlwinds of Veza, the Edgestorm
A petty accident, overlooked and unrecognized by his majestic parents, Damar
was flung wide by the gyrating motions of the Edgestorm and sent spinning
over the Ocean that lies around the Earth.
Though overlooked by his progenitors, Damar was yet not destitute of gifts
from his ancestry, and he at last landed, on his feet, on the sturdy ground
of the Earth -- with a smile.
From then on, Damar made his way in the world by the strength of his wits.
Relying himself on no authority of parentage, and yet never doubting his own
nerve, Damar showed no respect for bare authority. He made his way and his
living as he pleased, and relied on his brain and his charm to rescue him
from a clumsy theft or an ill-considered jest.
There is an endless lore of Damar's tricks, jokes, frauds, tales and riddles.
One of the best known and most important is that of how he stole Death from
Ikadz.
In the Dreamtime when Ikadz the Torturer held sole mastery of the Sword of
Death and its power, still Damar was reckless enough to tease and vex him.
Tortured himself above all things by impudence and humiliation, Ikadz managed
to catch Damar. Savage with hate, Ikadz flayed at Damar's skin with the
Sword. Even so, Damar spoke a riddle:
You can flay my skin
From out to in,
And though I die
Only you will cry.
Who am I?
"Save your idiot riddles!" jeered Ikadz. "We shall see who laughs last when
you taste the power of Death!"
"And what do the dead see, Ikadz? Though I may be your onion today, you will
always be a cabbage-head. Tell me -- I'd like to know why you're doing this
to me -- What do the dead see?"
In an attempt at a response, Ikadz slew Damar with the Sword, driving it into
his body. But this silent answer was itself a question and a riddle, for
Ikadz stood over his victim with a maniacal grin and a searching gaze,
looking for confirmation in the marks of Death that he had finally bettered
his tormenter. Damar lay with a whispering smile upon his face.
In that very moment of victory and killing, Death itself had become a riddle
and a question for Ikadz. The victory was defeat. And so in that very
moment, too, Death was lost to Ikadz as a power of mastery, control and
finality. And in that very moment that Death became a riddle, Death became
Damar's, and Damar controlled Death, and Damar did not die. With his own
hand, Damar pulled the Sword from his body. Ikadz gasped, and then fled,
howling and wailing, his eyes stinging with tears.
Later in the Mythtime, Damar used the Sword in the quest to bring forth the
Son of the Sun from Hell. He then lost it playing dice.
B. SINCE TIME BEGAN
The most important legends concerning Damar occur in the Mythtime, before the
first rising of the Sunsson. His role becomes less important, and less
tolerated, as the world settles into the new dispensation of agreements,
rules and compromises devised to save and preserve the Cosmos.
C. LIFE AFTER DEATH
Remember the onion?
D. RUNIC ASSOCIATIONS
Damar is marked with an extremely peculiar set of incongruous Runes. Not
least of the troubles is that he seems to have three parents: Sun, Moon
and Veza. Or is Veza, or Moon, a sort of midwife? Though all associate him
with Disorder, which he gets from Veza, and while many add to that Luck,
because of Damar's amazing turns of fortune, some vigorously argue for Fate
instead of Luck, because of the decisive role Damar played in Myth. And then
there is endless debate as to whether Truth, from the Sun, or Illusion, from
the Moon, pertains best to Damar. Is he not a Trickster? But don't his
tricks always reveal something true, and doesn't Damar display a wonderful
intelligence, befitting the light of the Sun? Or is that just crafty
cunning? And so Damar himself is a riddle!
Because of Damar's runic indeterminacy, some philosophers have theorized
that Damar, for some reason, was one of the few gods to escape, to some
significant degree, the taxonomic meddling of the God Learners. How he
might have accomplished this is a deep and provocative mystery.
II. NATURE OF THE CULT
A. REASON FOR CONTINUED EXISTENCE
Damar is a trickster god who revels in chance, puzzles, hilarity, irreverence
and mischief. There are still those willing to devote their lives to such
things. Actors, jugglers and other such performers, as well as gamblers,
often follow the god's ways. Many thieves also worship Damar. For them,
theft itself becomes a prank and a riddle: How can what is yours cease to
be yours ? For the Damar thief, the jest, and the gesture, of theft is
finally more important than the material gain itself.
Many adventurers worhsip Damar, given his association with fortune.
B. SOCIAL/POLITICAL POSITION AND POWER
Not much, given that his followers are mostly scum, outcasts, ne'er-do-wells,
adventurers, pranksters, performers and other misfits.
C. PARTICULAR LIKES AND DISLIKES
Damar loves all that has to do with games, chance and luck. It is possible
to become an initiate of Damar only by living through a very lucky -- or
unlucky! -- experience. In one's own misfortune must be found a source
of laughter, a comic center to tragedy. And, perhaps, tragedy in every
joke. . . .
Though a trickster, it is to be remembered that that it is not clear whether
Damar is more properly tied to the Illusion or to the Truth Rune. Damar
delights in the mischievous and playful deception that stings those who
have become fatted in the complacence of their position (high OR low).
Yet the joke, the riddle, the turn of chance -- perhaps just because of
a well concocted deception -- is meant to reveal something true, to be
illuminating.
Worshipers of Damar must show respect to onions.
Damar prefers a practical joke to a killing, and a song to a nasty argument.
Or better still, a riddle!
III. ORGANIZATION
[...]
D. HOLY DAYS AND HIGH HOLY DAYS
Weekly on Wildday. Seasonally in Truth or Illusion week. Yearly in Fate or
Luck week in any season, or in Sacred Time. Initiates will simply know these
variable days at the start of each season in which they fall, and in Sacred
Time in the case of the high holy day.
IV. INITIATE MEMBERSHIP
A. REQUIREMENTS FOR INITIATION
As indicated above, the prospective initiate must have experienced an
extraordinary stroke of good or bad luck (and survived the latter!).
Self-initiation is then possible on a roll of POW as a %, or the initiate
may attempt to find a priest of Damar, and convincingly tell the story of
his outragous fortune. The priest may also demand that the candidate
demonstrate proficiency in other cult skills besides story-telling (Orate).
The cult teaches the spirit spells of Glamour, Befuddle and Dullblade (this
latter relates to the condition in which Damar left the Sword of Death....).
Other cult skills include Sleight, Devise, Conceal, Hide, Sneak, Dodge, Fast
Talk, Sing.
Tell Joke or Ask Riddle may be treated as new skills, or they may be treated
as special applications of Orate and Fast Talk. In either case, successfully
telling a joke or riddle should allow the Damarian to affect the prevailing
social atmosphere in manner commensurate with the joke/riddle/story.
The player should keep a stock of the jokes and riddles the Damar cultist
knows, just as if they were spells.
IV. RUNE PRIESTHOOD
[...]
E. RUNE SPELL COMPATIBILITY
Possible access to much of the standard Trickster magic, depending on local
shrines.
F. CULT SPECIAL RUNE SPELLS
Lucky Bastard
1 point, ranged, temporal, stackable, reusable.
This extraordinary spell summons the power of Luck to serve the caster. For
each point stacked and cast, the caster gains 10 (or d20) 'Luck Points' (LP),
which may be used any time during spell duration. For any roll to be made by
the caster, the caster may apply a number of LP (not to exceed current POW);
each LP translates into a -5% on the roll. Thus, with 3 LP, a roll of 36 on
a Climb may be changed to 21. For weapon attacks, this affects only the to
hit, not criticals. Alternatively, the caster may choose to apply a given
number of LPs to reduce the change that an opponent succeeds with a skill.
This works in the same way as above, but add +5%/LP to the opponent's
roll, and requires that the caster overcome the opponent's POW.
VI. SUBSERVIENT CULTS
A. SPIRIT OF REPRISAL
Damar afficts apostates with a special curse: Bad Luck!
Hope y'all enjoyed this! GF out.
---------------------
From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
Subject: Sorcerous atheism; Humakti Templars
Message-ID: <9310221633.AA15303@condor>
Date: 22 Oct 93 16:33:54 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2086
_______________
Sandy Petersen wrote:
>If the sorcerer is an atheist, he denies
>post-death survival, even the existence of a human spirit separate
>from the body.
I find it hard to believe that anyone in Glorantha could be a true atheist.
Atheism in the real world is based on the lack of (scientific) evidence
for the existence of gods (as defined by religions). In Glorantha the
evidence for the existence of Gods is very much In Your Face. It's tricky to
deny the possiblity of resurrection when the person you saw dead last week
is alive and well this week.
I think an analogy between RQ sorcery and real-world science is reasonable,
but we shouldn't assume that they will reach the same conclusions about
the existence of gods etc. The evidence is different so the conclusions will
probably be different.
Or are atheistic sorcerers so closeted that they have no experience of the
world outside?
Given appropriate evidence, I think that sorcerers are more likely to change
their views than most people. And I think the study of magic would ultimately
lead them to the truth regarding gods & spirits.
>The sorcerers do have an equivalent to the resurrect spell, though.
They do? I'd like to hear more about this.
You mention the three different views of the way Death/spirits/resurrection
works (ie sorcerers', priests', shamans' viewpoints). Which is nearest the
Truth in your opinion?
>Some shamanistic types explain that resurrection
>must be done soon because the spirit deteriorates, gradually
>discarding the pieces of itself that were necessary when it had a
>body.
I like this idea. :-)
______________________
re Anglo Saxon riddles:
I really do love the Anglo Saxons' sense of humour. ;->
_______________
Loren J. Miller wrote:
>Remember that Humakti are RQ's answer to Paladins from the D&D game,
>and the Gloranthan analogue to Templars and Hospitallers and Teutonic
>Knights, oh my.
Comparing Humakti to Templars seems fair enough, but I don't think D&D Paladins
have much to do with either. Paladins are an impossible blend of an altruistic, life-loving, upstanding moral & ethical code combined with the death-dealing
profession of a warrior. Basically they are a huge contradiction. If you
removed their alignment restrictions (and the benefits derived therefrom)
then they might be close to Templars.
But we're not here to talk about D&D...
Your analogy comparing Humakti & Templars is reasonable up to a point, but I'd
be careful about how much of the game-system you project onto the real-world:
>If they [Templars] had divine magic they could recover it at any christian
>church.
They never had *anything* remotely similar to RQ Divine Magic, so how can we
say how things would have been if they did? A Templar could pray in a church,
on a battlefield, in a barn, up a tree, or in a smoking birch-bark canoe; the
effects (if any) would be exactly the same (IMHO). RQ characters get markedly
different effects depending upon where and how they pray.
>[...]This is where I get into trouble with the all-or-nothing way that
>cults work in RQ. Earthly polytheists will worship any god who can
>satisfy their needs, and they're not monogamous at all.
In gaming parlance I suppose they could be termed munchkins. Fortunately,
the benefits which earthly polytheists gain from their gods are somewhat
less tangible than the rewards of Gloranthan god-worship in RQ. If earthly
theists got as much from one god as Gloranthan theists do then I'm sure they'd
stick by that god as much as necessary. :-)
>Initiates, who comprise the
>vast majority of the adult population, may only worship one god each.
I've seen several odd statements posted along these lines which I don't quite
understand. As far as I'm aware there is nothing to stop a character
from becoming an initiate of several cults so long as he can fulfil the
requirements of all his cults. Have I missed something?
I think the best way to simulate pantheism in RQ is to assume that any
character initiated into one (or more) cult(s) in a pantheon automatically
has lay-membership in the other cults of the pantheon.
Or has lay-membership fallen out of fashion while I've been sleeping?
_________________
Re: Shamanism FAQ
Yeah, I'd be glad to see the FAQ.
(Our Newsfeed is a bit out of date, and we probably won't get this group
anyway :-( So it would be handy (for me) to have the FAQ posted.)
___
CW.
---------------------
From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
Subject: curing Chaos
Message-ID: <9310221639.AA15389@condor>
Date: 22 Oct 93 16:39:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2087
BTW, something I've been wondering: is it possible to remove the taint of
Chaos from a creature (without killing it)? I can imagine the Stormbull line
on this, but was wondering what Chalana Arroy thinks: she seems to vaunt the
idea that "all life is precious, but Chaos doesn't count". Why don't CAs
protect chaotics and try to cleanse them? Is this feasible?
___
CW.
---------------------
From: henkl@yelm (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: Re: (more about my Sartar Campaign Plans)
Message-ID: <9310222151.AA23967@yelm.Holland.Sun.COM>
Date: 22 Oct 93 23:51:02 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2088
S.Phillips@gla.ac.uk writes about his trouble setting up
a Sartar campaign.
Wasn't Jon Quaife working on a `Sartar Pack?'.
Anyone know about his progress?
---------------------
From: henkl@yelm (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: Re: single truth; [+ objections vs. Shamanism FAQ?]
Message-ID: <9310222210.AA24004@yelm.Holland.Sun.COM>
Date: 23 Oct 93 00:10:38 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2089
Colin Watson writes:
>You mention the three different views of the way Death/spirits/resurrection
>works (ie sorcerers', priests', shamans' viewpoints). Which is nearest the
>Truth in your opinion?
Here's a Nysalor riddle: If you are convinced that a single truth about
Gloranthan magic can be determined through reasoning, you obviously
subscribe to a certain school already. Which one?
>Re: Shamanism FAQ
>Yeah, I'd be glad to see the FAQ.
So far I've seen three yeahs, and no neys.
Does anyone have any objections against posting the Shamanism
FAQ list?
--
Henk | Henk.Langeveld@Sun.COM - Disclaimer: I don't speak for Sun.
| My first law of computing: "NEVER make assumptions"
---------------------
From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: RQ Daily
Message-ID: <9310231553.AA02647@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 23 Oct 93 05:54:12 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2090
re: Geoff Gunner & Humakt
I really liked Geoff's idea of the two types of Humakti -- the young
& fanatical types, who have Lost All, and the conservatives, who keep
trying to do things the old-fashioned way. I can see there being
quite a big power struggle between these two groups, and lots of
Humakti duels being fought to determine the path a particular temple
will follow.
Roland (hey, Roland, what's your last name?) writes
>> I would argue that the number of CA initiates and priedstesses
>> would be small in the Lunar Heartlands, primarily because the vast
>> majority of the people there would worship the Seven Mothers
>> (which has a wide variety of Healing magics available). Most of
>> the people there would likely go to their local Seven Mothers
>> temple for healing. If I remember correctly from _Cults_of_Prax_,
>> the Seven Mothers expect this. Besides, CA is associated with
>> Orlanth, who is decidedly persona non grata in the Empire.
My belief is that Seven Mothers is an extremely uncommon cult in the
Lunar Heartlands. Seven Mothers is a borderlands cult, specially
designed by the Lunar regime to defend it against outsiders and to
indoctrinate potential converts. It is a highly artificial cult,
composed basically of 7 associate cults, but with no central figure,
which is why each of the Mothers provides one spell (its associate
cult offering). If you go deep inside the Lunar Empire, you'll find
loyal Lunars either worshiping the original gods of the lands (Solar
pantheon, mostly), or worshiping the Seven Mothers individually.
Thus, you have guys worshiping Yanafal Tarnils, Jakaleel the Witch,
etc., but not Seven Mothers themselves. The Lunar Empire has other
specialty religions as well, such as the Young Elementalas, the
worship of the Red Goddess herself, etc.
In general, the Lunar Way sees itself as a veneer spread over a
region's previously existing religion."You can still worship the Old
Gods -- the Lunar Philosophy is all-accepting!" Of course, this view
is somewhat distorted when we come to Orlanth, because he is selected
as the Red Goddess's special enemy -- the one religion that cannot
coexist properly with the Goddess. She does have a substitute air god
available for would-be storm cultists (alas, I don't recall the name
of the Lunar air god, but she is a female, nicknamed Calm Air. *argh*
all my books are in storage until I finish building my house.)
This does not necessarily mean that all the old Solar pantheon is
still going ahead just fine inside the Heartlands. I believe Roland
is right when he points out that Chalana Arroy is a little tainted by
contact with Orlanth. In addition, the Red Goddess has Deezola, a
healing goddess who offers reusable Resurrect without the rigid
requirements of CA. Despite CA's lengthy association with the solar
cult, I predict no more than 1% CA healers in the Empire, probably
less in urban areas.
Loren Miller says:
>> The problem is that RQ cults aren't polytheistic, they're
>> monotheistic. Initiates, who comprise the vast majority of the
>> adult population, may only worship one god each.
I doubt I'll be the only one who calls you on this, Loren, but I
don't believe this is so. In the first place, it is possible to be an
initiate of multiple gods in RQ (though not necessarily trivial).
Also, lay membership (which has somewhat gone by the wayside with the
lack of information on this status in RQ III) is mightily available
to everyone in the same pantheon. At Ernalda fertility dances,
everyone in town participates. When Heler, the puny rain god, has his
annual holy day, all the Orlanthi and Ernaldese show up, paint their
faces blue, and enjoy the celebration. This is all lay member stuff.
To make an imperfect analogy, worshiping Orlanth is more like having
a patron saint in Catholicism than it is like being a whole separate
religion. There are only a few Religions in Glorantha, these being
Orlanthi, Lunar, Praxian, Invisible God, Eastern, etc.
I once had a bitter argument with a fellow over the nature of the
Humakt cult. He had visited the temple and they had refused him
something (I forget what). He then told me, "I don't think the
Humakti would act like such jerks. How would they ever get converts
that way -- they should act nice to everyone!"
My response was, "What do they care about converts? If you want to
join, you'll come to them. Humakt is not an evangelical sect!"I'm
sure most readers of the Digest will agree with me that few
Gloranthan sects engage in strenuous missionary activity to maintain
their numbers.
In the stereotypical barbarian family, you (if you're male) worship
Orlanth, your wife worships Ernalda. Your jerk cousin who's always
getting in fights is a Storm Bull. The town drunk is the Eurmal guy.
When you go to market in the fall, you sing a hymn to Issaries along
the way, hoping to sell your food for a good price and not get
cheated in return. When you plant in the spring you worship one of
the grain goddesses, plus make a trip to the town Uleria shrine, just
to make sure crops are okay. When your son gets pneumonia, you pray
to CA, and also take your kid to the town's small Healer shrine. Your
clan leader's graybearded advisor specializes in Lhankor Mhy. When
you gamble away your money, you call on Eurmal to curse your
opponent's dice. When it hasn't been raining, you remember about
Heler, and donate a few clacks to his shrine. On dark winter nights,
when you're frightened and hear wolves outside, you pray to Argan
Argar for protection.
>> Every initiate would see initiates of other cults as
>> enemies because they do not acknowledge the primacy of the only
>> god that matters.
To keep Orlanth as our example, an Orlanth worshiper doesn't claim
that his is the only god that matters -- he only thinks that his god
is the best for HIM. He may also think that his god is the King of
the Gods, but the Lhankor Mhy, Issaries, CA, and Ernalda folks all
agree. That doesn't mean that they aren't happy with their own gods.
The ancient Greek polytheists had special initiates of many of their
temples, yet still recognized all the gods. Ceres probably got lots
more worship than Zeus, but that didn't mean the priests of Zeus got
all bent out of shape.
Is it just me, or have the RQ bulletins gotten significantly smaller
over the last week?
Yours,
Sandy Petersen