Bell Digest v931025p3

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 25 Oct 1993, part 3
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Sender: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
Precedence: junk

The RuneQuest Daily and RuneQuest Digest deal with the subjects of
Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha.

Send submissions and followup to "RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM",
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RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Henk Langeveld)


From: (Jim Rogers)
Subject: Pantheons & Producers
Message-ID: <>
Date: 23 Oct 93 14:39:04 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2091


	Just a few quick reactions.

X-RQ-ID:2075  Loren Miller on Pantheons v. Monotheism.

	Cheers for Loren!  Right on the nose!!  I'm going to institute the
pantheonic view of Gloranthan worship immediately, and begin proselytizing
immediately.  St. Jim, at your service.  N.B.  I also think that there
doesn't have to be one [GL] master set of pantheons, to be stamped on
Glorantha for all.  In fact, pantheons might change from place to place. 
I.E., Urox might fit into the Orlanth pantheon for Dragon Pass, but why in
Ralios, necessarily?  Or Pamaltela?  Perhaps his place might be decided on
the views on the importance (or knowlege) of his victory over Wakboth in
various parts of Glorantha.  Create all sorts of interesting things for
player adventurers to experience, no?

	BTW, did everyone else notice that most of the cults _already_ had
notions of this in place via subcults and friendly / associate cults?

X-RQ-ID:2078  Sandy Petersen on Humakti v. population data.

	Sandy, while I generally agreed with your answer, I almost
choked on your statement "All city-dwellers are effectively non-producers.
. .  The Orlanthi of Sartar are not a subsistence economy."  What are you,
some kind of primitive agrarian socialist! :-)=
	I must assume that (1) you really didn't mean that; (2) you meant,
that they didn't produce agricultural products (where do you think most of
the non-agricultural products come from, eh?); (3) The Sartari economy must
be producing a surplus, to afford cities and "non-productive" population of
any sort.  I'm going to avoid, somehow, a lecture on civilization and
economies.  I am going to chalk it up to temporary insanity, which
occasionally happens to even the heroes of RQ like you (everything G.S. says is
wrong, indeed!).

No XREF  MOB on his great victory over the dirty-word pols and bureaucrats.

	Tip up a last one for all of us struggling for education vs. the
creeping tide of bureaucratic control and political skullduggery.  Talk
about non-farmers producing something of value - an educated populace!
	Now, get back to work on the Pamaltela issue! :-)=


	Jim R.


From: 100116.2616@CompuServe.COM (David Hall)
Subject: Humakt & Indrodar
Message-ID: <931023112019_100116.2616_BHJ32-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 23 Oct 93 11:20:20 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2092


Here's my tuppence worth on the Humakti in Sartar debate - one close to my 

I really like Geoff Gunner's idea of a Humakti cutting off him or herself 
from their kin as part of initiation into Humakt. This is what happens in 
my campaign when someone joins the Temple of Indrodar (a local Lismelder 
sub-cult of Humakt). When Corwen (from Tales #6) joined up we had a full 
clan funeral for him  - everybody was there mourning his death. The funeral 
pyre could be seen for miles around. Though I did feel sorry for his widow 
and kids. 

This symbolic death and cutting of from kin is vital for a worshipper of 
Indrodar. It allows them to make a complete break and join their new family 
of Swordbrothers at the temple. They also have the liberating knowledge 
that they are already dead. 

Humakt is such a single-minded deity that I can't see them fitting 
seamlessly into the farming and herding culture of the Orlanthi. Surely 
their initiation must lead them to cut themselves off from kin, farming and 
herding (life), to concentrate on weapons and warfare (Death). Though this 
new emphasis is in the service of the culture, usually. 

Where do Humakti worship?

Humakti in the household and bloodline:

I don't believe that Humakti can function at this level. This is the level 
of the farmer, herder, and craftsmen and women. The basic family group. 

Humakti in the clan:

I can see Humakti operating here, as specialised warriors/protectors. 
Probably, in some clans the Clan Chieftain's Housecarls are a Humakt 
temple. The only way to become a housecarl in this sort of clan would be to 
cut yourself off from your household and devote yourself to your clan and 
death (i.e. get initiated into Humakt). It's likely that these housecarls 
would worship a specific Hero cult with spells suited to the local clan 
needs. In such a clan Humakt (or the Hero) would have a very important role 
in the clan's religious life. 

However, not all clans would operate like this, some might have exclusively 
Storm Bull Housecarls instead. Or housecarls might join a specialised 
sub-cult of Orlanth called Orlanth Deathdealer (maybe with spells similar 
to Humakt). In these clans Humakt would have a lesser role to play, and he 
might only be appeased and not actively worshipped. 

Humakti in the tribe:

This is also a place where Humakti can operate. In the Lismelder tribe 
people who wish to join Indrodar cut themselves off from household and clan 
and devote themselves to  their temple and the tribe. The temple here also 
has a strong ecological reason to exist - the proximity of Delecti's Marsh 
and the hordes of undead. Ecological reasons for a deity's worship are very 
important in Glorantha. 

Humakti in the cities:

I have to say that there can't be many. I believe that the cities of Sartar 
do not have a permanent city guard, just a part-time militia officered by a 
few full-timers. The main defense of Sartar's cities are the tribal 
confederations that surround them. 

As an aside, I really have problems with the idea that every city in RQ has 
a temple to Orlanth, Humakti, Storm Bull, Chalana Arroy, Zorak Zoran, 
Lhankor Mhy, Donander, etc, etc. There has to be a strong reason for each 
temple, and its size. 

In a peaceful Sartar city (built on craft guilds and trading) there isn't 
much call for a temple of the God of War and Death - maybe no call at all. 
Or the sort of temple in a city might be a small affair with a decrepit old 
Sword and a couple of full-time militia commanders. In peacetime people 
would go to the temple to appease Death, not worship it! In wartime you 
would find more people joining, but not many. In this situation I really 
like Loren Miller's idea of asking for blessings from the god. 
City-dwellers who didn't want to join Humakt, but needed his aid in a war, 
could worship as lay members and sacrifice for one-use spells. 

This is how the Indrodar temple works in Lismelder lands - on Humakt's High 
Holy Day (Indrodar's Deathday) anyone in the tribe can sacrifice for 
Indrodari spells - though only 1 point ones. This doesn't mean that they 
only worship him on that day - all tribesmen and women worship him every 
Orlanthi holy day - or at least think of him, or appease him. 

This is something that the clunky mechanics of RQ can't cope with. I say 
that Indrodar's Temple is a large Humakti temple. But RQ says that because 
there are only some 50 - 80 Swordbrothers it's not even a minor one. This 
is tosh. It means that for some deities, i.e. Minlister, Heler, Donander, 
Issaries & Indrodar, you will never get enough worshippers together (1,500 
- which is three Sartari clans, or one small city) to have access all the 
gods magics. 

The only way around this is to count worshippers per pantheon of deities, 
and not per god. So, in Lismelder lands Indrodar is, by definition, 
worshipped by everyone who worships the Orlanth pantheon. The tribe is 
4,000 strong which give me a Great Temple - if I want to define it as being 
that big.

Worship, as Loren Miller points out, has to be based around broad pantheons 
- not the chinese menu monotheistic approach that Cults of Prax (and all 
the cult-write ups) tend to suggest (and as Sandy Petersen pointed out in 
his Tales interview). 

But I digress!

Humakti in Sartar:

The best example of this would be The Household of Death. They cut 
themsleves off from household, clan and tribe to serve the Royal House of 

I also don't believe that the Princes of Sartar ever had standing armies - 
it's too civilised a view of Sartar for my tastes. The only groups 
approaching a standing army would have been the Prince's own royal 
bodyguard, and the Household of Death. I reckon no more than 1,000 at its 
peak in 1602. 

Humakti outside of this:

Mercenaries. These are Humaki who must have cut themselves off from 
household, clan, tribe, and probably country. As such, they are surely the 
rarest type of Humakti found since they have no cultural link. Only found 
in war zones, where there are rich patrons. 

Individuals. Even rarer still, probably travelling on pilgrimage or 
heroquests from a home base. I don't think you can have lone Humakti 
operating outside of a temple structure - there has to be a reason for 
being temporarily away from your temple. 

How many Humakti?

I tend to agree with Geoff Gunner on the percentage of Humakti in Sartar, 
though I would put it at 1 - 2%. I think this is because it is a 
specialised religion requiring great devotion and personal sacrifice

Storm Bulls. 

I'm not so sure about Storm Bullys. I used to see them in a similar way to 
Humakti. They were portrayed as specialised Chaos killers in Cults of Prax. 
Since only fools go off to seek out chaos there probably wouldn't be a 
flood of people volunteering for it! And it might be hard to be a go-getter 
chaos-killer in a household/clan environment. 

However, the emphasis on Storm Bulls in Sartar seems to be away from 
chaos-killing and toward the drunken berserkers of Viking Saga's. In this 
case Storm Bulls would be far easier to fit within a clan and tribal 
structure. The religious emphasis would be on killing clan enemies (and 
chaos) when it came to them - not the Praxian (River of Cradles) emphasis 
on actively seeking out Chaos wherever it is (which effectively means 
having to leave the clan and tribe). 

I do like the idea of Storm Bull being different in Sartar as compared to 
Prax (it has to be as the two places are so different), and taking away all 
or some of the need to kill chaos is a great way of doing it. Should the 
Sartar Storm Bulls have the skill of Sense Chaos at all? Or the spell 
Impede Chaos? Probably not, these would be replaced with local spells for 
local needs! Though I'd keep Face Chaos because we are still talking about 
the Storm Bull. 

Heresy, or what?


David Hall


From: (Eric Rowe)
Subject: Sisters of Inspiration
Message-ID: <>
Date: 23 Oct 93 19:08:55 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2093

In Apple Lane the character Pramble is a dual initiate of Ernalda and
of the Sisters of Inspiration.  Any one have any more
information on this organization/cult?



From: henkl@yelm (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: Re: RQ Daily
Message-ID: <9310241606.AA25047@yelm.Holland.Sun.COM>
Date: 24 Oct 93 18:06:12 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2094

Sandy writes:

>Is it just me, or have the RQ bulletins gotten significantly smaller  
>over the last week?

Well, most issues this week were just one or two parts long,  while a
couple of three part issues in a week is normal.

One explanation would be that we haven't seen Nick Brooke or Paul
Reilly much this week.  They probably have mundane obligations to

But we don't depend on them to keep the Daily busy, or do we?

Some time back we saw some dicsussion on RuneQuest lite.  Now
what do you all think would be the smallest possible set of rules 
capturing the spirit of RuneQuest?

Would a Two Page RuneQuest be possible?

Henk	|	Henk.Langeveld@Sun.COM - Disclaimer: I don't speak for Sun.
	|	My first law of computing: "NEVER make assumptions"


From: (David Dunham  , via RadioMail)
Subject: Detection Range
Message-ID: <>
Date: 24 Oct 93 19:51:54 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2095

What do people think about the range of spirit magic detection spells? In
the one hand, it makes sense that Detect Enemies have a 55 metre (average
POW*5) range -- it can be used to determine if the people you're talking to
mean harm. On the other hand, I gave out a Detect Antelope matrix, which I
thought would be a cool item for a hunter. It turned into a laughingstock
in my campaign, because if you're that close to an antelope in Prax, you
can probably see it. (Yes, I suppose it could be lying down in the grass,
but how often do antelopes do that? And you still have to practically walk
into it.)

David Dunham * Software Designer  *  Pensee Corporation
Voice/Fax: 206-783-7404 * AppleLink: DDUNHAM * Internet:


From: (Tim Posney)
Subject: Re:  RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 22 Oct 1993, part 1
Message-ID: <>
Date: 25 Oct 93 19:46:12 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2096

>>From: (Tim Posney)
>>Subject: how to use the tar file that occurred in the digest today
>You left out step 0: have a Unix system (luckily, this is a mailing list,
>so not all of us have to :-)

Acutally whilst I use a unix box to read mail I did all the processing using
a dos box. (I'm a sucker for punishment, but I do pay by the hour for access)
There are good copies of most of the utitlities you need available for
public use. If there is enough interest I'll post them to soda.., but they
are all ftpable from simtel etc.

I think there will be more cases where people want to send non-ascii stuff
and uuencode is the best way to do it.
regards tim