From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 29 Oct 1993, part 2 Precedence: junk --------------------- From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) Subject: Re: RQ Daily Message-ID: <9310282047.AA28561@yelm.Holland.Sun.COM> Date: 28 Oct 93 22:47:24 GMT X-RQ-ID: 2136 It's that Sandy guy again. I hadn't realized I'd become addicted to RQ Daily until I went cold turkey on Tuesday and Wednesday when it didn't show up. [To make up for it you just send in a *huge* message. I've split it rather arbitrarily... -HL] Nick Brooke sez: > The goddess of calm air is Molanni. Thanks, Nick! That name was going to bug me all week until I remembered it. I recalled it started with an M, but that's all. She is called "Orlanthio" in contempt by storm cultists who wish to compare her cults' friendliness to the Lunar Empire with the (commparatively) relaxed relationship of Yelmalio and the Lunars. Also it helps mock the North Sartar tribes, who are traditionally less loyal to the Sartar royal house and among whom Yelmalio is fairly common. > Nobody is going to get much running & shouting joy out of her > worship. True enough. But her existence is theologically important to the Lunars. It lets them show that all the elements are combined under their umbrella, despite the fact that the Young Elementals, their main source of elemental magic, do not include a storm equivalent. Initiates don't automatically qualify as lay members of their associate cults, but the actions they need to take to become a lay member are typically as trivial as described in Cults of Prax. > When do you join Storm Bull? Is it at your coming-of-age ceremony? > I find it attractive that almost all Sartarites will be initiates > of Orlanth and/or Ernalda, but it seems hard to penalise players > for this by requiring Sartar Storm Bulls to sacrifice 2 POW > in character generation for two separate initiations. I imagine some kids know they're going to be Storm Bulls at the age of 15, and sign right up, skipping the Orlanth ritual. Probably that's where Eurmal gets most of his candidates, too. I suspect many Sartarite tribes still follow the initiation ritual as described in the "Life of Harmast". However, it's probably pretty ceremonialized by now, and I doubt anyone's been picked for Vadrus or Kolat in centuries. I predict that at least half of the Storm Bulls in Sartar are also Orlanth initiates. Obviously, when a Storm Khan shows up at an Orlanth ceremony, demanding his rights as an initiate, this doesn't mean that the "real" initiates have to give him exactly the same consideration as one of their own. Given that an initiate gets a POW check every year just for going to the High Holy Day, it doesn't seem too onerous. After all, it's only 1 POW, and it gets you into the Ernalda/Orlanth fertility rites. Most of my Storm Bulls would be proud to pay that price. Sam Phillips sez: he'd like to have guys on lakes. Suggest he set campaigns down in Esrolia, Heortland, or Maniria, where there's plenty of lakes and Orlanthi both. The hill country of Sartar, Aggar, and the other fringes of the Lunar Empire are not good lake country. Of course, there's Delecti's Marsh. The ducks do some fishing there, but under duress. > re re Sandy's 'in the stereotypical barbarian family ...' -YES ! > This is how it should be - only can you translate that into > specific game mechanics? For the sake of argument, let's take the standard lay membership requirements as paying a weekly clack to the priestess and promising to sack 1 MP at the holy days, and go back to the barbarian family. But let's not forget that you can pray to any god for free, without worshiping in any formal way. RULES EXAMPLE OF LAY MEMBERSHIP: Everyone gets together for the big Orlanth spring festival. Someone digs up a Heler acolyte (doubtless he's also an Orlanth initiate) and everyone sings and dances to Ernalda, Orlanth, and Heler. The Heler acolyte does his part in the passion play and goes around with a bucket filled with rainwater (if there's been a drought, creek water will do in a pinch). Everyone throws a clack in the bucket for good luck, and says the little Heler limerick (*presto* they're lay members of Heler for the next week), hoping for rain. If things look dry over the next few weeks, Dad might trot over to the Heler shrine sitting next to the big House of Orlanth and toss another clack or two into the bucket hanging there, while saying the Heler limerick again. Sometimes rowdy kids loot the bucket for its clacks, which makes the Heler guy mad, but what can he do? Graeme Willoughby sez: > Has anyone ever played a successful Lunar or a sorcerer? Yes. ;-) > I've always liked the Lunar Empire, but most scenarios or games > that I've seen seem to be very anti Lunar. The early RQ material was all set near Dragon Pass, where the Lunars are definitely an external occupying force. Naturally players gravitated towards being the underdogs (this is a common American tendency in RPGs, I've found) and of course most of the cults there regard the Lunars as loathsome villains. WBRM didn't help either, since it's clear that the Lunars are the Bad Guys in that game. In my own campaign I had plenty of sorcerers, though mostly Malkioni, not Lunars. I think part of the problem is that the Lunars make great enemies. They're distinctive, tough, and have easily recognized stigmata. Plus they can incorporate most any kind of threat or creature. Most gamemasters would rather have them as opposition to the players. I know I would, though I've played Lunars myself. YANAFAL TARNILS: he was originally a Sword of Humakt, and his cult is VERY much like Humakt's. Also recall that one of the early bad enemies of the Lunars were the Carmanians, whose war god was Humakt. Tarnils's cult underwent parallel evolution during those wars. His cult has Swords, geases, and the same spells (except Sever Spirit is one-use). He doesn't have Humakt's subcults (teaching, for instance, the Parry spell). On the other hand, he is an associate of the other Lunar cults. While his cult doesn't teach Resurrection, his members are allowed to experience it. His geases are a little different from Humakt's, too, being generally more open-minded and less powerful. He also generally has a "balancing" geas for each geas. For instance, he has the geas of "Mistrust Chaos, except cult members", but he also has the geas of "Accept Chaos Feature". NOTE: most Yanafal Tarnils have nothing to do with chaos. Yanafal Tarnils believe in the principle of Honor, and recognize the Humakti Duel as valid, following its rules strictly. This should be enough for anyone to create their own Yanafal cult. Other Lunar cults: Red Goddess (covered in GoG), Seven Mothers (CoP). Yara Aranis -- a fearful cult of destruction; the "Storm Bull" of the Empire. Each of the Mothers has his or her own cult somewhere in the Empire. You can derive some info on the personality of these cults from the thumbnail descriptions in GoG and CoP. If I had my damn stuff out of storage I could download some cult information on these dudes on the net if there were interest. *sigh* If I had some ham I could have some ham and eggs if I had some eggs. Remember that the bulk of the population of the Lunar Empire do not worship any Lunar gods at all. They worship Dendara, or Yelm, or Lodril, etc. Yet they respect and recognize the Lunar Gods. I've had many many sorcerers in my campaign. I've heard other RQ GMs complain that sorcery is unworkable, but I've never found it so. It's possible that I'm doing something different from everyone else, but I'm not sure what. My sorcerers work out fine. They're valued members of the party, but never make converts (most PCs prefer the instant gratification of Rune magic or the only slightly delayed benefits of shamanism. Skath & Skanth cheat openly. > Sartarite forts: What do you think these are like? I expect simple hill forts or (for more advanced tribes) mott-and-bailey type affairs like William the Conqueror brought over. Of course every big town has a wooden, earth, or stone wall surrounding it. Boldhome is hard to capture because of its location on the mountaintop, so its wall may not be as complete. > Would the Lunars take over *every* Sartarian fort? Do the Lunars, > in fact, interfere in everyday Sartarian life or do they run the > major settlements and leave the hillsfolk to themselves? They > obviously can't be everywhere at once. Obviously. The Lunars don't have enough troops in Sartar to hold the entire population down. They station garrisons in the towns and do their best to convert the tribal leaders. I don't think they've owned Sartar long enough to start converting it to the Lunar standard. You'd find bathhouses and coliseums in Tarsh, though. The Lunars collect taxes from everyone in Sartar, but I'm not sure if they do it per homestead, per clan, or what. It's probably best left up to each gamemaster. The usual Lunar tactic in conquered territory of leaving the local culture alone and letting it gradually inculcate Lunar virtues does not seem to be working in Sartar. Some Lunars argue it just takes more time. Others argue for severe oppression to exterminate the hotheads. Still others say they should be milder and kinder to the Sartarites to befriend them. It is worthy of note that the fanatically hostile Storm Bull sect wasn't outlawed until Starbrow's rebellion. At that time they also outlawed plate armor and had the Duck Hunt (for a while, ducks were fair game -- anyone killing a duck got a year off his taxes). charles gregory fried sez: > I think then that a Spartan phalanx will beat a Sun Dome double > file (barring rune magic!), as even more of their time is devoted > to the craft of war. (And I wonder what role slaves do fulfill in > SD society -- isn't large scale slavery as much of a threat to the > Sun Domer farmer as Southern slavery was to the Northern free > farmer in the pre- Civlil War US? I concur about the Spartans vs. Sun Dome battle. I think in general if Gloranthan warriors were deprived of the use of magic that Earth warriors would kick their behinds. On the other hand, if the Coldstream Guards were deprived the use of modern weapons, I suspect the Spartans would best them as well. Warning: I'm a Civil War buff, and you pushed one of my buttons with your remark on slavery. Southern slaves were no threat to Northern freeholders because they were only economically useful in harvesting the exceedingly labor-intensive crop of cotton. Slavery at one time existed in all the states, and was gradually being expelled from everywhere it made no sense. It was not threatening to "invade" the North and displace anybody. I believe the Northern opposition to slavery to be primarily based on moral repugnance to the institution. If interested, I'd be glad to continue this discussion more privately. Many Sun Domer farmers are basically serfs, not hardy yeomen. Yelm is certainly no abolitionist, and slavery has long been part of their society, and is also part of the Lunar culture. The Orlanthi kind of dislike slavery, but they can be found among them as well. I expect slavery is likeliest to be a temporary state in Sartar. I don't expect that the Lunar slaves are like the U.S. field hands. Most farms are worked by peasants, while slaves live in houses as indentured servants. The Praxian slaves are workers, and treated as just another part of a nomad's wealth. Almost all Praxian slaves are prisoners of war. Some Lunar slaves are born into their "job", but many are also condemned criminals, or prisoners of war, or economic victims who sold themselves into slavery or were sold into slavery by family members. > why aren't there more cities in Glorantha with the same meaningful > status as, say, a Sparta or an Athens? Greg has done up fairly complex histories and cultures for the Dara Happa Tripolis, and there are other large cities with important patron gods, interesting societies, etc. Unfortunately, they're not in the barbarian lands of Dragon Pass. Pavis can give us a look at what some of these cities are like. Though Pavis is crippled & stunted, you can kind of see what it might have been like in its prime. In Dara Happa, Fonrit, Esrolia, you'd find cities more like the classical model. Each city in Esrolia is run by clans of women, in which the infighting and politicking is highly important. Fonrit has city-states like unto ancient Greece, though the culture is quite different. re: Dave Cheng's gripe about "Grazers" [continued, -HL] --------------------- From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) Subject: Re: RQ Daily Message-ID: <9310282049.AA28585@yelm.Holland.Sun.COM> Date: 28 Oct 93 22:49:09 GMT X-RQ-ID: 2137 re: Dave Cheng's gripe about "Grazers" I agree. I like Sartarite, Grazelander, and even Storm Bull. I'm sure someone has noticed my failure to use the word "Uroxi". It's just a foible, no doubt a sign of moral turpitude on my part. S. Phillips says (actually, I'm reading this from Dunham's cts. on this in Thursday's missive, because I never got Tues. or Wed.), > I find you cannot create anyone older than 30ish who isn't > bordering Rune status. Is everyone of status at least an acolyte? I wouldn't read too much into the fact that the RQ character generation system tends to break down with older characters. But if you look at a sample stead such as the Sazdorf troll tribe, you'll see that there are plenty of tough guys among the elder clan members. Joerg Baumgartner sez, with respect to lay membership: > Then why didn't we get it black on white with RQ3? We blew it. RQ III was designed by committee (I was there), and it suffers from it. I still think it's a fine game system, but lots of little important things kind of slipped through the cracks. re: Chris Pearce and the glory that is Chalana Arroy. The Wild Healer of the Rockwoods is still a chaos entity, and it heals chaos things of terror as much as it does anyone else. CA tends to judge an individual by his or her actions, so it's no big deal if someone is chaotic. Loren Miller speaks about cult membership & being a ruler. I concur entirely. And let's not forget the important subcult of Orlanth Rex. Any Wind Lord who rose to leadership in his clan would almost certainly adopt Orlanth Rex as his new master, rather than Orlanth Adventurous. Sam says: > Anyone know where around the Dragon's Eye Tink is? > Ducks: Would all Sartar tribes have taken part in the slaughter? Tink is southwest of the Eye, as I recall, going towards the Marsh. The Duck slaughter was an individual thing, not tribe-by-tribe. If you brought in a duck head, you didn't have to pay taxes the next year, so anyone who wanted to save a buck could do it. Of course, there were plenty of guys who refrained on moral grounds. And none of the Storm Bulls did it; ostensibly because it showed submission to the Lunar Chaos, but let's not forget that the Storm Bulls, also outlawed, weren't paying many taxes anyway. Paul Reilly sez: > There is supposed to be a complex Lunar pantheon with many gods. The Lunar Gods are among the least-worked out pantheons in Glorantha. Their philosophy and personality is understood, but cult membership & Rune magic are far from complete. I have a bunch of stuff on these cults, as mentioned above (but in storage *sob*). I urge you, Paul, to go ahead and work out your own Lunar cults as best suited for your campaign. If Lunar cults ever get published, you can either work your own cults into the published ones, or completely ignore the published cults in favor of your own. I'm sure any cults you'd come up with based on the information available couldn't be too far from what the "real" cult was. And if you found that Deezola, for instance, had no equivalent to the important Fish Lips spell you'd given her in your campaign, you could always explain it away as a prominent local subcult spell. The Lunar reusable Resurrect comes primarily from the Red Goddess herself (for obvious reasons). Deezola is a healing goddess, but not just another version of Chalana Arroy. In my own version (I'm working from memory here), her cult was not so much worried about fixing things that had already happened (like curing disease, etc.) as it was oriented towards preventative medicine. One of the spells I gave her was Ward Disease. This is a stackable, instant spell which, when cast, takes 1 POW from the recipient, who must be willing. The number of points in the Ward Disease is added to the appropriate stat of the target when he is exposed to a disease. Hence, if Fred had a 3-pt Ward Disease, he'd add 3 to your POW when resisting Soul Waste, 3 to your CON vs. the Creeping Chills, etc. If the recipient manages to contract a disease despite this, The Ward Disease points are destroyed by the sickness before it reaches his actual stats. Hence, if Fred caught the Shakes, but shook it off after losing only 2 pts, he'd still have 1 pt of Ward Disease left, and his DEX would be intact. Deezola also has stuff like Heal Body. Yara Aranis, another lunar entity, is a bad monster-god mainly oriented vs. the Pent folk. One of her rune spells is Kill Horse (no resistance possible on the horse's part). The way I always understood Gloranthan Chaos was like this: You want the gold. The troll wants the gold too. You might both be bad, but Chaos wants to destroy ALL the gold, so you'll unite vs. that threat. It ain't so much Evil, as it is so destructive that it must be confronted and stopped before Everything comes to an end. That's the conservative view, at least. The Lunars reassure everyone by saying that Chaos can be controlled and kept safe. Leave it to the experts. They also say that as Chaos is to gods as Death is to mortals. That's why the Old Gods oppose Chaos, Most Gloranthans would rather just get rid of all the chaos and not have to worry about the world being destroyed any more. After all, it almost happened once. Graeme Lindsell asks: > does the worship of a god give power to that god's enemies? I'd like to think not. If so, it makes a mockery of praying to Ernalda for safety from Daga.I expect that there are a number of "worshipless" deities in Glorantha; entities that exist because of their status, regardless of any cult. I suspect Valind, Daga, and Vovisibor have hardly any initiates, but are still important cosmically. > I think that Chaosium seems to treat POW sacrifice a lot more > cheaply than any players I've seen. Hmm. This may well be true. It is entirely possible that the nonchalant way with which POW loss is treated in RQ is the result of trends in the Chaosium campaigns, in which POW gain and loss was no big deal. > Earthly polytheists would pray to the various gods in their > pantheon expecting real supernatural help. Why can't Gloranthan polytheists pray to the various gods in THEIR pantheon expecting real supernatural help to the same degree as Earthly ones got any. Just cause initiates get Bless Crops doesn't mean that I can't expect the Grain Goddess to which I pray to provide me with a fat harvest, though perhaps with less certainty than an initiate can expect by casting his Rune spells. In addition, lay members can probably expect to get the priest to cast some Rune spells for him, though at a price. I expect most priests won't cast spells for complete non-members. At least lay membership is needed. re: The triangular law rune The trinity aspect of this didn't occur to me ere now. I always thought of the Law Rune as a rendition of the Spike. But the tripart shape is certainly serendipitous and I'm sure would be seized upon by Gloranthan philosophers. I now fully expect there to be at least one Malkioni heresy which proclaims that there should only be 3 societal classes, because of the tripart nature of the Rune. > I've always wondered: why didn't you just use the existing rules > for rune magic when constructing the (Malkioni) Saints? 1) I wanted the emphasis to remain on the Invisible God. 2) I wanted the magic to be powerful and rare, which the 1-pt POW loss excuses, and the large POW sacrifice enforces. 3) I wanted it to seem different from Rune magic so that worshipers would be clearly alien to theists, and vice versa. 4) I wanted the magic to be readily available to all classes of society, not just a priestly elite. Anyway, those were the reasons. Readers may disagree but what can I say? Sandy Petersen --------------------- From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham , via RadioMail) Subject: Dragon Pass Lake Message-ID: <199310290548.AA16428@radiomail.net> Date: 29 Oct 93 05:48:03 GMT X-RQ-ID: 2138 I found a lake! (I have a copy of a map I got from Greg -- and I just tried copying it tonight and it comes out terrible, so don't bother asking). Jaldon's Wrong River flows through Goldhorse Vale. The part where the river splits (to go around Dunstop) is labelled Spectacular Falls. Behind this is Long Lake. ---------------------