Bell Digest v931101p1

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 01 Nov 1993, part 1
Precedence: junk

X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.


Subject: Veratus, Storm Bulls
Message-ID: <>
Date: 30 Oct 93 12:16:20 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2149

Greetings all! Just another lurker (and slow reader) (who will be attending
RQ-Con :-)  ) with a few thoughts about a few things.

Someone (Clay?) a while back talked about their non-Gloranthan Islands
campaign.  I'd like to recommend the Island Warrior trilogy by Carol
Severance as a source for ideas.  The main character is even a shark
worshipper!  In order, the titles are _Demon Drums_, _Storm Caller_, and
_Sorcerous Sea_ .
Clay Luther noted (quite a while ago):
>In pre-time, before the coming of chaos, there were no questions, by the
>will of the Great Heavenly Father, Yelm.  Orlanth-Chaos was the harbinger
>of those and the destroyer of the Perfect World.
In my Glorantha, I have a Darra Happen cult of Veratus the Verifier.  His
cult teaches that when Umath ripped Sky Father and Earth Mother apart, men
lost their instinctive knowledge of their rightful place in the world.  The
winds of storm changed the words of men, and the different languages grew
into being to divert men from their path to the Eternal Light.  That men
might have a means of keeping on the True Path to Enlightenment, Dayzatar
created writing.  That 
the writing would remain truthful, Dayzatar created Veratus to guard the holy
writings of Truth.

 Veratus is a child of Lux, and is the Solar Archangel Guardian of the Holy
Word of Truth.  During the Great Darkness, the Chaos god Tien bound but could
not break this god.  Tien used Veratus to lure Lhankor Mhy, who was searching
for his beloved Mistress of the Light of Knowledge, into a trap.  In escaping
from the trap, Lhankor Mhy freed Veratus and taught him knowledge useful
against Tien's powers.  Veratus recognized the Light of Truth in the Sage
Lord and blessed him, exchanging oaths of support and fr
 He is formally worshipped as a cult in the Dayzatar libraries of the Dara
Happan Empire.  He is also worshipped as an associated cult in the
Lhankor-Mhy libraries of Peloria (in Tarsh, Holay, Imther, and Vanch) and in
the famous Library of Ketheala.

I wrote up a bit on Veratus a while back in the RQDaily as part of some info
on subcults.  As I learn more about the cult structure, perhaps I'll post it
if anyone is interested.

More recently, David Hall wrote about Storm Bull cultists:
>I do like the idea of Storm Bull being different in Sartar as compared to 
>Prax (it has to be as the two places are so different), and taking away all 
>or some of the need to kill chaos is a great way of doing it. Should the
>Sartar Storm Bulls have the skill of Sense Chaos at all? Or the spell
>Impede Chaos? Probably not, these would be replaced with local spells for
>local needs! Though I'd keep Face Chaos because we are still talking about
>the Storm Bull.

I also agree that worship should be varied by culture, and I've been doing
some thinking about this in relation to the Uroxi and the Storm Bulls too. 
If (and for some folks it's a BIG if) native american indians are the closest
Earth-equivalent culture to Praxian culture, I think that Storm Bull
worshippers would fill roughly the same cultural nitch as the _contrary_
warrior societies did for the indians.  Designed to "break with the potential
austerity of an overdone traditional life," contrary society members "were
obliged to say the opposite of what they ment and to do the opposite of
whatever was demanded of them.  Generally, they behaved in a way contrary to
common sense."  (Quotes are from Thomas E. Mails' book _The Mystic Warriors
of the Plains_ .)  I create a context for this by theorizing that Praxians
believe that Storm Bull followers abide by a set of behaviors outlined and
set by Storm Bull during Godtime, before the Godswar and the Covenant of Waha
redefined Praxian nomadic life.  These behaviors have little relevancy to the
present day Prax.  For the followers of Waha and Eiritha, this lack of
relevancy is difficult to reconcile, for these ancient ways of conduct are
often contrary to the basic life style which Waha has prescribed for his
peoples.  Storm Bulls are seen as having been chosen by the spirits to follow
an ancient way of life which now makes people crazy and can only end in
violent death.  They are both pitied and honored, and are tolerated in the
tribe only so long as they do not endanger the welfare of the tribe.  Thus,
the  breaking of tribal custom and taboo and other crazyness are given a
cultural context, and becomes the basis for why other Praxians tolerate such
deranged dangerous individuals among their tribes at all.

As to how Uroxi would fit in the Orlanthi culture, I see them as functioning
mainly on the tribal level as specialized chaos fighters, and some on the
clan level as beserks.   I'm not sure I would change what skills and magic
are available, but the cultural preferences would definitely show up in what
spells the worshippers chose and emphasised.  With such major chaos nests as
Snakepipe Hollow to the north and the Foulblood Woods in Heortland (not to
mention whatever broos and other chaos-spawn survive wandering in the
mountains) surely the unique skills and magic of Urox are essential to
survival at times.  Perhaps the Praxian emphasis of actively seeking out
chaos is due to influences from their nomadic lifestyle.  In this case,
perhaps the Uroxi religious emphasis is more that of the specialized defender
against chaos. (Hmmmm... if Humakt was Orlanth's Sword, was Urox Orlanth's
Shield?) I think that the emphasis of the cult would have been less "search
and distroy all chaos" at times, but with the arrival of the Lunar Empire I
think that would change some among the anti-Lunar clans and tribes.

Hearsay, or what?
Peter Michaels


From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Slaves of the Sun Dome
Message-ID: <931030150351_100270.337_BHB39-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 30 Oct 93 15:03:51 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2150

John Medway wrote:

> I've read that slavery is practiced here and there, but I don't
> recall any comprehensive treatment, for Prax, the Empire, or anywhere.

An appendix to Cults of Prax has most of what we know in it. The Greydogs 
were amused to read Sandy on the rarity of Orlanthi slaves -- we don't have 
*any* slaves, just lots of thralls.

> The Sun Domers are almost universally worshippers of Yelmalio, not Yelm.

Interesting question: given the "Elmal schism", is this a valid comment? I 
*think* the point of the Sun Dome Temple is that they live their life of 
discipline in emulation of Yelmalio, the dutiful son of Yelm. That is, they 
take a "perfect soldier" / "perfect son" as their role model, but their 
main object of worship would be the same as his: Yelm, the Fiery Father.

Certainly, in our run through Gaumata's Vision, I think Yelm got as many 
prayers and invocations as Yelmalio. Have a look at the text of that Sun 
Dome land grant's opening blessing some time: the one with "Oh, and 
Yelmalio too" tacked onto the end of the praise of Yelm. And Solinthor's 
poetry. All seems a bit of a give-away...

> Building Wall Battle, anyone?

What, you want details? Just as long as you don't believe anyone who tells 
you it was made from poisonous, spiny coral... A giant Esrolite earthwork, 
gnome-raised, is all you need (and far more sensible).

> A friend of mine, Sean Summers, suggested Egyptian-style garb for the
> people of Esrolians.  Though he was (is?) a Albany insider, this seems
> too easy. Pharoah. Egypt. Naaah.  Just too obvious. They also have too
> much contact with the West, and the Orlanthi to not have adopted some
> of their ways and garb and military. So what should they look like?

Too easy? Me, I find it irresistable. You have a model for the hard-working 
peasantry (clean-shaven men in kilts: "effeminate" by Barbarian standards), 
intensive riverine agriculture, a cultural standard of feminine beauty 
(anyone for Cleopatra), plus it makes "Pharoah" make sense as a translation 
for Belintar's title. And you get a hint of that *really* large, *really* 
useless light infantry army they have. Sacred Crocodiles. Serpent Gods. 
Importing the Red Emperor's cult as a new Husband God -- Caesar & 
Cleopatra. No, this is all too good to pass up.

Try calling 'em "Esrolites", too. Helps with that "ancient" feel. Perhaps 
they use -im rather than -i for plurals: "Humaktim, Orlanthim," etc. Hours 
of fun (and maybe OK by David Cheng, too).

Just leave out the Pyramids (tempting, I know, for the Esrolite Necropolis, 
but I think it'd be going too far).

I know the "official" line is that Esrolia is "just like Sartar", only with 
women in charge. But that's boring. Everywhere ends up looking more or less 
the same. This way is more fun. You just have to chuck out a couple of 
references to close cultural identity here and there (the Sword and Helm 
Saga, links with Heortland, Six Earths, etc.) and you have a far more 
intriguing and evocative country to adventure in.

Oh, yeah: Nochet City (the biggest library/port/market/hospital/centre of 
civilised Theyalan culture in the world) becomes a perfect analogue for 
Alexandria. Street brawls (cf. Holy Country Regional Events) thrown in. 
Hey, let's stick a Lighthouse up there...

Colin Watson asked:

> What do you all think: should the "standard" DIs be available to
> all or not?

Not. Trouble with DI is, of course, the poor GM has to think fast for a 
one-off special effect at a crisis moment that (presumably, given rules) 
wasn't anticipated. But I don't like either "standard" calls for DI, or 
"standard" responses. Any more than I like those outbursts of "Let's *all* 
try to pick the lock" that can hit even the best playing groups.

Carl-Johan Lundell:

> I have a PC who is one of the refugees from the fallen Malkonwal of
> Heortland. He has banded up with some Orlanthi rebels of Dragon Pass.
> He knows some low level sorcery and often is disappointed with, for
> example, his ability to heal damage compared to spirit magic users.
> Would he consider it heresy to learn spirit magic or use spirit spell
> matrices?

Perhaps he would. Certainly, if his Bishop/other superior got to hear about 
it, he'd be in trouble (assuming he's a "straight" Rokari and not one of 
the Aeolian Heretics -- who we think are the native Heortland 
Malkioni/Orlanthi Church, imported or created by Arkat). But there may well 
be practical considerations that would lead to him adopting this 
"mumbo-jumbo pagan superstition" on a temporary basis. If he finds he 
prefers it to wizardry, he's in *real* trouble.

Sandy on atheist excuses for Divination:

> The Invisible God is answering the questions for reasons of his own.

Hmmm... so there's a Sorcery ritual for Divination, is there? Along with 
Resurrection? Looks like all those differences between Wizards and Priests 
are going out of the window...  ;-)

Ho hum, looks like my last (epic) posting missed today's Daily. Isn't 
technology wonderful! If it doesn't turn up early next week, I'll resend.



From: (David Dunham  , via RadioMail)
Subject: Costume
Message-ID: <>
Date: 30 Oct 93 19:05:16 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2151

>From: (johnjmedway)
>Once again, it's time for my plea for info on what you folks think the "look
>and feel" of various regions is. Primarily I need some info on the costume and 
>the military of the Holy Country and the Grazelanders so that I can have some-
>thing appropriate on the table in Baltimore. Building Wall Battle, anyone?

For Grazers, I'd go with American Plains Indians as a base, though perhaps
higher in material goods (with the vendref and the Issaries trading posts).
Or Scythians. Their military is pure cavalry (some light skirmishers,
others heavy lancers). Oh, and no doubt shamans ride with them as magical

>A friend of mine, Sean Summers, suggested Egyptian-style garb for the people 
>of Esrolians.  Though he was (is?) a Albany insider, this seems too easy. 
>Pharoah. Egypt. Naaah.  Just too obvious. They also have too much contact with 
>the West, and the Orlanthi to not have adopted some of their ways and garb and 
>military. So what should they look like?

I agree, the Pharoah is an outsider, not necessarily an Esrolian.

Hey, I lost touch with Sean. He's still in the Austin area? Tell him I said


From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Harrek Chronology
Message-ID: <931030224259_100270.337_BHB39-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 30 Oct 93 22:42:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2152

Another idea crosses my mind re: Joerg's query --

JB>> ... the timeline of the Harrek-Box conflicts with the timeline
JB>> in the general description. Any offers for this problem yet?

NB> Harrek can't count, or lies about his age.

... Or L. Sprague de Camp and Lin Carter cocked up the timeline when 
arranging the fragmentary stories (and the ones they made up themselves)
for their first paperback publication...  ;-)

Come on, guys, we've seen this all before!

(Where's those Frazetta Harrek pics?)



From: henkl@yelm (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: Re: Is it true?
Message-ID: <9310302314.AA29983@yelm.Holland.Sun.COM>
Date: 31 Oct 93 01:14:53 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2153

In rq-list you write:

>I was just given some disturbing news last night...

>RQ3 is no longer in print!


>Ken, Sandy, everbody - is this right?  If not how do I arrange for the shop to
>acquire them?

I don't think AH could keep the RQ rules out of print for very long,
as that could result in their license from Chaosium to be revoked.

Maybe they forgot, and we should keep quiet about this... (:^'

Henk	|	Henk.Langeveld@Sun.COM - Disclaimer: I don't speak for Sun.
	|	My first law of computing: "NEVER make assumptions"


From: henkl@yelm (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: [Daily hint of the week... -Editorial]
Message-ID: <9310310110.AA00416@yelm.Holland.Sun.COM>
Date: 31 Oct 93 03:10:55 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2154

>Ho hum, looks like my last (epic) posting missed today's Daily. Isn't 
>technology wonderful! If it doesn't turn up early next week, I'll resend.

The Daily rejects any single message of more than 15k.
I intervened with Sandy's message, by resubmitting it
as two separate parts (which actually wound up inside
a single part, as *that* limit is 25k or so...)

I'm not always around, so the following hint may help:

    Large long-winded articles tend to get tiresome to read,
    as they appear to address a lot of issues without having
    a single 'fil rouge' warranting a monolithic scroll of
    text.   The few exceptions to this, are almost always
    in-depth treatises on a single subject, and belong on
    the 'Digest' proper.

    In order to guarantee inclusion, separate your comments into
    separate messages, possibly with a different subject line.

    If you think your article is one of the exceptions, send it to the
    RuneQuest-Digest-Editor@Glorantha... and I'll send it in/as a
    Digest issue.

disclaimer: My words, not Sun's				      #    #    #
		 				     ____### ###  ###  ##
Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM, |   #################
Maintainer/Editor of the RuneQuest Digest	    |  ########### ######
		    | ############ ######
Enquiries to:					    ############## ######
RuneQuest is a trademark of Chaosium, Inc.	  #######################
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3823 CC Amersfoort##########||||=====|====|==############################
The Netherlands   ##########||||=====|====|==############################ 
			My home is my ruin...


From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Jomsvikings and Heortland
Message-ID: <931031101141_100270.337_BHB37-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 31 Oct 93 10:11:42 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2155

Joerg said:

[re: Orlanthi warriors and historical Vikings]:

> Those who stayed away full time - now these might have had one third
> possible candidates for a cult like Humakt's.

Yeah. Like the Jomsvikings. Those *bastards* would have been Humakti.

> I'd like to do a "Stygian" Malkionist writeup for the Manirian
> Trader Princes as well, with Issaries being the "Holy Spirit" part
> of the trinity.

Sounds reasonable, though I hasten to add that the real-world "Trinity" 
isn't necessarily the model for all our Gloranthan efforts. Though, that 
said, has anyone else noticed how the Four Corners of the Earth (Gata = 
Mother, Empress Earth = Daughter, Earth Witch = Spirit) fit into the 
pattern, with Genert taking the place of the BVM, even!

Certainly, in a religion with prophetic roots, it's easy to see how the 
Stygian/Henotheist Trader Princes would see the Messenger (between Man and 
God) as a key figure. (I wonder if "Yingar the Winged" is the Western name 
for Issaries, or one of his sons/aspects). I quite liked the implications 
in the intro. to MOB's letter-handout in "Hut of Darkness", Tales #9.

> Note also that the Malkionist Dormal comes from Nochet, and probably
> is tied neither to the Aeolian or the Issarian henotheist heresy, but
> to a sea/water orientated similar (but hostile) to that of the Waertagi.

That'd be associated to the Jrusteli-founded Waertagi-monopoly-breaking 
Cult of Diros the Boatman, in all probability. Though I'm not sure Dormal 
is, strictly speaking, a Malkioni: he just had the fortune to go West and 
meet a load of those fellows on his journey. Would we think him inscrutable 
if he had sailed East instead? (They use Sorcery out there, too).

"The Issarian Heresy" -- sounds good to me!

I'd had fun hypothesising *another* Malkioni sect in the catacombs under 
Nochet City, but hey, the more the merrier. Let's see: we've got Heortling 
Aeolian Orlanthi/Stygians, Richard's monotheist Rokari, the old Diros cult 
(now allied or subsumed to Dormal's way), the Trader Princes, the remnant 
Brithini of God Forgot, Troll followers of Black Arkat, a putative bunch of 
weirdoes in Nochet (Hey, maybe these are the Dormal/Diros bunch, and paint 
their recognition-symbol of the Fish up everywhere!?) ... is there anyone 
I've forgotten? Oh, yeah, the Moonies have Malkioni connections, too...

> I pictured the Aeolian church as a Stygian variant, allowing both
> sorcery and divine magic, while the Rokari were (in my scenario) the
> hardheaded purists which usurped the native Malkioni religion. Think
> of Theoderich's Goths (Athanasian Christians) and their problem with
> getting accepted in (Arian) Italy. Of course, here the Athanasian
> parallel is the native one, and the Arians are the invaders.

Perhaps easier on the brain would be the clash between Roman and Celtic 
Christianity -- both the real one in Anglo-Saxon England, and (more 
importantly) the use Greg has made of it for that Grail Christianity 
business in Pendragon. You have hassle between hardline dogmatic 
monotheists and the free-and-easy, more-or-less pagan church of the 
natives. ("Yes, we believe in the Holy Trinity, too: Maiden, Mother and 
Crone.") The Aeolians might justify/evolve towards worship of "Saint 
Ernalda" in the same way as the Irish did "Saint Bridget" -- she's an old 
pagan goddess, but it's really handy to keep her around, and her sacred 
sites and rites do work miracles: must be the will of God...

Interesting thought: is there a Dragon-vanquishing Malkioni Saint whose 
chapels could be raised atop some of the overtly-pagan Aeolian sites? And 
who might have a vigorous following in the Church Militant? You get the 
idea: something like a Malkioni Storm Bull, with "Face Heresy", "Defend 
Against Pagans", or even "Counter So-Called 'Divine' Magic" wizardry 
spells. This one amuses me, and I may give it some thought.

It will be interesting to see how a "Stygian" sect write-up comes out. Has 
anyone out there done any experiments with the organisational structure for 
combined Spirit Magic, Rune Magic and Wizardry (as opposed to one-off 
characters who have given it a whirl)?

Better cut off now, before I bore Henk's machine to tears (again!).



From: (David Dunham  , via RadioMail)
Subject: Orlanth Temples; map
Message-ID: <>
Date: 31 Oct 93 11:54:29 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2156

>From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
>Ah. Remember that there's really no such thing as an Orlanth Temple: any 
>bare and windy hilltop will do. 

That's a reasonable interpretation, but not supported by the RQ3 rules,
which define temples as fixed sites. And casting Sanctify isn't necessarily
a solution, since you'd need a way to recover your Sanctify spell.

(Note that nomads have similar problems with the RQ3 rules, though perhaps
they time their migrations to be at the holy site on high holy day.)

I believe the rules should be changed (there are other problems), a topic
for a future Daily.

>> What are the Cinder Pits?
>> What is in Tarndisi's Grove?
>> Anyone know where around the Dragon's Eye Tink is?
>Answers in the all-new RuneQuest Adventures magazine

Alas, the map in RQA2 is not the same as the map I copied from Greg several
years ago. John tells me he made up his detail. I think John did a great
job with no information, but those who want the "official" data should let
Chaosium and/or Avalon Hill know you'd buy a copy of Greg's Dragon Pass


From: (Loren J. Miller)
Subject: strangers in prax
Message-ID: <>
Date: 31 Oct 93 11:49:39 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2159

so when is it coming out? i have to tell my local store to order it,
since they don't order any RQ stuff except by request.

-- Loren

p.s. if you wonder why RQ stuff isn't selling well, this is common practice.